Does my block's firing ring look trashed?

[ariff]

I have been talking with @half k cruiser cruiser about my block since he has crossed this bridge a few times in the past. He brought to my attention something I thought was gonna be ok.. but might not be. And I am glad he did since I don't want to go through the process of replacing the head gasket to have to tear it all apart again and do it over. A little back story number 6 cylinder failed my leak down test. So my son and I decided to pull the head and have a look. I expected to see obvious damage to the gasket but could see none. Apparently it was replaced in the past by a somewhat incompetent mechanic. Anyhow i saw no evidence of damage to the HG. I did notice the pass side head bolt on no. 6 was much looser than the others. I also saw no indication of the head being resurfaced\rebuilt. So I thought maybe that was contributing to the leak.. Then Half K said look real close at the firing ring for corrosion and it appears I have some corrosion.. The question is.. Is that what was causing the leak? if so what to do about it? I have seen folks skim some jb weld over the corrosion spots with good luck and others have had the block resurfaced.. However some say resurfacing the block can introduce more issues. I thought I would post some detailed pics here and see what you all think.. I plan on talking to my machinist as well to get his thoughts. Feeling a bit stressed and down now ;>(

PS here is a link to more pics: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HX6GWOf7cPTncuIl2

 

[Malleus]

Honestly, I can't see it (rust). It doesn't look new, but... if the block's flat and clean, it's good.

On your other comment, how would resurfacing a head cause problems? (assuming it's never been cut, of course)

 

[nukegoat]

How deep are the gouges? A thou?

 

[Malleus]

Hence my comment about flatness... I left it up to him to check.

 

[nukegoat]

Hence my comment about flatness... I left it up to him to check.

You beat me to it

 

[AlaskanLX450]

I wonder if some kind of metal epoxy could be used to fill the voids on the block surface? Like internal engine bondo?

 

[2fpower]

My machinist tells me you have to expect the head gasket to do its job and fill in those voids. From what I see, it looks like several that we have done head gasket jobs on.

On @StucknKS rig, it was deeper than I liked -- deeper than what you are showing -- so I had him machine off a whisper of metal on the block. Yes, folks say it can cause issues, but if you are just knocking off a few thousands I don't see how it can cause any issues.

The big issue for you is pulling the engine out now.

 

[ariff]

So while doing some looking around on the web about this I came across this:
Just FYI for people considering decking their block:

By decking the block, it lowers the compression ratio. In order to bring it back to "stock" either of two things will have to happen.

1. A head gasket shim to bring it back to the proper thickness. Never have liked these. With the block being steel, the head aluminum, and the shims I've seen some hybrid steel...all three have different expansion and contraction proprieties, the head never seems to fully seal for a prolong time.
2. An adjustable cam gear to put the timing back to where it needs to be.

Having the block decked creates a whole lot of problems (issues)...a lot more than a little pitting on the block.

Now I get what they are saying here but I am not sure if that applies here or not. I also read about folks using the Permatex Copper spray with good results. Some people even recommending using that stuff even if the head and block are in pristine condition? Should I give it a try with that stuff? I have a line on a precision straight edge i hope to get tomorrow to check flatness and I'll report back here with those results.. How would one go about measuring the pitting though? I can feel them when I run a finger nail over them. @2fpower are you saying mine looks typical to what you have seen before and the gasket sealed or that I should pull the engine and have it shaved down? Thanks everyone!

 

[LINUS]

You need a trueing bar & a stack of paper/plastic feelers to measure it if you want an answer that anybody wants to sign their name to.

That said, the gasket compresses & the newer design should take care of the HG issue - the firing ring wasn't the reason these pop, it was cooling jacket in the gasket that changed.

 

[Malleus]

I wonder if some kind of metal epoxy could be used to fill the voids on the block surface? Like internal engine bondo?

Please tell me you're joking; this is what we having milling machines for.

 

[Malleus]

So while doing some looking around on the web about this I came across this:
Just FYI for people considering decking their block:

By decking the block, it lowers the compression ratio. In order to bring it back to "stock" either of two things will have to happen.

1. A head gasket shim to bring it back to the proper thickness. Never have liked these. With the block being steel, the head aluminum, and the shims I've seen some hybrid steel...all three have different expansion and contraction proprieties, the head never seems to fully seal for a prolong time.
2. An adjustable cam gear to put the timing back to where it needs to be.

Having the block decked creates a whole lot of problems (issues)...a lot more than a little pitting on the block.

Now I get what they are saying here but I am not sure if that applies here or not. I also read about folks using the Permatex Copper spray with good results. Some people even recommending using that stuff even if the head and block are in pristine condition? Should I give it a try with that stuff? I have a line on a precision straight edge i hope to get tomorrow to check flatness and I'll report back here with those results.. How would one go about measuring the pitting though? I can feel them when I run a finger nail over them. @2fpower are you saying mine looks typical to what you have seen before and the gasket sealed or that I should pull the engine and have it shaved down? Thanks everyone!

This is all true, but...
when people talk about "decking" their blocks, they're not talking about milling a couple of thousandths off to flatten it. I live in the heart of NASCAR country, where everyone thinks they're the next winningest driver (with a car to match). There is no shortage of crap people are willing to do to an engine.

This is a forklift engine. The loss of compression you'll see in flattening the block will be within the standard deviation of manufacturing tolerances. These were never designed or built to be precision instruments.

@2fpower is right; the gasket will take care of the minor deviations, if the overall flatness is within specifications.

My original question referred to cutting the head. I misread your post. ;(

 

[nukegoat]

This is all true, but...
when people talk about "decking" their blocks, they're not talking about milling a couple of thousandths off to flatten it. I live in the heart of NASCAR country, where everyone thinks they're the next winningest driver (with a car to match). There is no shortage of crap people are willing to do to an engine.

This is a forklift engine. The loss of compression you'll see in flattening the block will be within the standard deviation of manufacturing tolerances. These were never designed or built to be precision instruments.

@2fpower is right; the gasket will take care of the minor deviations, if the overall flatness is within specifications.

My original question referred to cutting the head. I misread your post. ;(

And it will increase compression, not decrease

 

[inkpot]

I had 2 slightly burned valves on #1 cylinderthat gave me less than 90 pounds of compression. Solution was a valve job. No headwork required

 

[Mandrake]

If you really did do a leak down test, you should have been able to determine where the cylinder was losing compression from because, you know... that's the whole point of doing a leak down test vs. just a compression test.

Too late for that now though, so time to fire up the parts cannon.

 

[ariff]

If you really did do a leak down test, you should have been able to determine where the cylinder was losing compression from because, you know... that's the whole point of doing a leak down test vs. just a compression test.

Too late for that now though, so time to fire up the parts cannon.

I did do a true leak down test and on number 6 I was losing compression through the radiator.. Bubbles out of the radiator when the cylinder was pumped full of air.. All other cylinders were good meaning no air out of the radiator.. However I was loosing air out of the tail pipe on all cylinders except for number 5 so I am assuming the head needs a valve job which the machine shop will be doing..

 

[AlaskanLX450]

Please tell me you're joking; this is what we having milling machines for.

Actually, no! Haha, I can see the humor in it however.... a lot of people don't want to change the compression or clearance between the head and the deck. I know that new resins are more than capable of handling the heat and movement of the metal, especially under the compression force of the properly installed head and gasket.

If someone wanted to fill corrosion voids or block degradation, I think something like this could be a viable option without having to pull and mill the short block.

 

[BILT4ME]

That does look very corroded around #6.

Do the "short" version of checking the flatness and how much clearance.

Tools:
Quality steel square (The 12" long steel ruler type)
Flat feeler gauges (or wire feeler gauges if you can find them)

Check the "flatness" of the edge of the steel ruler to make sure it is not bowed in the hard direction.

Set the steel ruler on edge across the center of the piston so the end sticks past toe corroded area. First, use a flashlight behind it to get a feel for how much gap there is from the edge of the ruler to the bottom of the valley in the corroded area. You can vary the angel of the light to see how far it will shine across the block and will give some indication of the size of the gap.

Use the feeler gauge between the edge of the ruler and the top of the block in the suspect areas. You should see nothing more than 0.003" I believe. Using the crude method such as this will produce crude results, but may sway you to keeping it the way it is or going the next step.

Unfortunately, to fix this the "right" way is to pull the engine, disassemble, have the block decked, clean the block, and reassemble. If I was at that point, I would have it honed, install new rings, maybe new bearings, check the crank, and reassemble with all new freeze plugs, gaskets, hoses. Then you'd have a brand new engine in it. You'd also be about $5000 lighter in the wallet.

You may want to seriously consider an operating used 1FZ from a 93+ truck (if 95+ will have to swap out some covers and plug some holes), but you may be able to do this for about $1000, assuming you do NOT pull the head and do the gasket on the "new" engine.

My OCD would not let me reassemble what I see here. I would pull it and go through it. Even if I found another operable engine, I would end up tearing it down and going through it with all gaskets, seals, etc. to fix all the problems before they happen. That being said, it is an expensive operation no matter how you shake it.

I thought @scottryana had a line on thicker head gaskets (Cometic), but when I go to their site, I cannot even pull up a 1FZ engine.

Deck the block, hone it and install all new rings, check the bearings (rework and replace if necessary), have the head rebuilt, reassemble and drive another 300K.

Good Luck!

 

[BILT4ME]

1FZ-FE Failed, help decide what to do

See post #25. Go look, NOW and call him. Check for freight. I can help with freight issues if needed.

 

[inkpot]

And it will increase compression, not decrease

You weren't supposed to mention that!

 

[scottryana]

You must not have tried very hard

Cometic Gasket

That does look very corroded around #6.

Do the "short" version of checking the flatness and how much clearance.

Tools:
Quality steel square (The 12" long steel ruler type)
Flat feeler gauges (or wire feeler gauges if you can find them)

Check the "flatness" of the edge of the steel ruler to make sure it is not bowed in the hard direction.

Set the steel ruler on edge across the center of the piston so the end sticks past toe corroded area. First, use a flashlight behind it to get a feel for how much gap there is from the edge of the ruler to the bottom of the valley in the corroded area. You can vary the angel of the light to see how far it will shine across the block and will give some indication of the size of the gap.

Use the feeler gauge between the edge of the ruler and the top of the block in the suspect areas. You should see nothing more than 0.003" I believe. Using the crude method such as this will produce crude results, but may sway you to keeping it the way it is or going the next step.

Unfortunately, to fix this the "right" way is to pull the engine, disassemble, have the block decked, clean the block, and reassemble. If I was at that point, I would have it honed, install new rings, maybe new bearings, check the crank, and reassemble with all new freeze plugs, gaskets, hoses. Then you'd have a brand new engine in it. You'd also be about $5000 lighter in the wallet.

You may want to seriously consider an operating used 1FZ from a 93+ truck (if 95+ will have to swap out some covers and plug some holes), but you may be able to do this for about $1000, assuming you do NOT pull the head and do the gasket on the "new" engine.

My OCD would not let me reassemble what I see here. I would pull it and go through it. Even if I found another operable engine, I would end up tearing it down and going through it with all gaskets, seals, etc. to fix all the problems before they happen. That being said, it is an expensive operation no matter how you shake it.

I thought @scottryana had a line on thicker head gaskets (Cometic), but when I go to their site, I cannot even pull up a 1FZ engine.

Deck the block, hone it and install all new rings, check the bearings (rework and replace if necessary), have the head rebuilt, reassemble and drive another 300K.

Good Luck!