Did brake flush cause new Master Cylinder problems? (2 Viewers)

[CloudCity]

Update 5/2019: See Post #5 below for resolution of this ordeal.

I've researched a few of the brake failure threads but this seems to warrant it's own as it is a specific sequence of events with a dealer service center leading to a potential failure.

I have been driving my new-to-me '04 LX 470 for about 3-4 weeks and most mornings on first start-up the brake master cylinder/pump/accumulator would run maybe two or three 1-second intervals to pressurize which I understand is common and expected. When in for a 4-wheel alignment at a local Toyota dealer they advised a coolant and brake fluid flush which I knew were both coming up due so I authorized the work. Got it back and was fine until next morning and instead of a couple of pumps it kept trying to pump for about 5-mins. Did this every morning for about a week and finally the pump then started making the dying seagull sound one morning and then the 4 lights came on (brakes and traction control) along with the audible brake warning alert. I pulled over immediately (had my visiting parents in the vehicle) and after a couple of minutes the lights and alarm all stopped on their own. Brakes worked normal now so we drove it to the same dealer to have a look and they found that there was "a little air in the system" and also that the fluid level did drop from the Full level when they did the flush (it was showing between Full and Low marks after the flush, and would drop to low when running) so he added more fluid to the point where it reached Full when running. They ran codes, showed one for brakes but don't recall exact one, but after they topped it up and re-bled system and took for a test drive with no issues they claimed it was fixed, but the next morning the same thing happened, more extended pumping sounds followed by screeching seagulls then lights and alarm came on. I noticed brake fluid level was above Full before I started it and it dropped to Full once running. I also noticed brake fluid this time under the black box on the side (ECU?) near the electrical connection with the rubber boot, but couldn't tell if this was due to a cracked line or gasket from when they worked on it or maybe just being sloppy when they filled the brake fluid reservoir as they also spilled coolant when they did that flush and didn't clean it up either.

Anyway, this time I opted to take it to the Lexus dealer which is not convenient but seemed necessary at this point. It's there now and the advisor did tell me "there's a very specific method for bleeding these brakes and that dealer should know how to do it, but if they didn't do it correctly it can cause lots of problems." I am currently waiting results of it sitting overnight Sunday once they start it up today and have a look.

I am thinking the first dealer (Toyota) didn't follow the correct procedure and the brake fluid *appeared* full, but once the truck was started and it pumped up, the level dropped and perhaps let air in which seems to have caused the pump to perhaps wear over that week period that it was running the pump for longer periods until it caused this issue. I don't want to say "failure" because once all the shenanigans in the morning stop on their own the vehicle can be driven and brakes work fine. I guess at this point I'm trying to find the source of the leak (if there is one), make sure it's bled properly, and also figure out if there i any damage to the brake system since it works fine all day just not in the morning as it works through the lights and warnings. To be clean I am not going to drive it like this, it needs fixed.

Thoughts, ideas, and suggestions? I'll post back once I hear from the Lexus dealer.
(They have been great btw, even gave me a brand new RX350 as a loaner while they check this out. Knowing they offer their pick-up and drop-off service where they will deliver a loaner vehicle to my driveway and take my rig when it needs serviced is a massive motivator to use the Lexus dealer from now on considering Toyota doesn't offer loaners for out-of-warranty vehicles and certainly doesn't deliver them to my door.)

 

[unklwedy]

Mechanic used assistant to flush brake fluid. Stroking brake pedal beyond its' normal travel (1") caused rubber seals to travel over unused areas of brake master cylinder wall (rusty) damaging seals. Long and short of it you need new master cylinder.

 

[CloudCity]

Mechanic used assistant to flush brake fluid. Stroking brake pedal beyond its' normal travel (1") caused rubber seals to travel over unused areas of brake master cylinder wall (rusty) damaging seals. Long and short of it you need new master cylinder.

Thanks much for the insight. Sounds logical.
Heard back from Lexus dealer and they said they "bled a lot of air out" of the system and they will now keep it until tomorrow morning to check and see what happens on startup. If the problem persists it seems you are correct in my case, but I hope we didn't get into that but I will report more tomorrow once they do the morning start up, it will either be fine or need the new MC. Thanks much.

 

[CloudCity]

Lexus re-bleed did not accomplish our goal and entire brake unit assembly (master cylinder, accumulator) was performed by the dealer at a $2,800 discounted price. Not happy with the circumstances but very happy to have a brand new system ready for the next 250,000 miles.

I did notice that the fluid was almost transparent this time after the brake work, but was still somewhat dark after the original Toyota dealer flush.

 

[CloudCity]

To give a resolution here, after approximately 10-months of effort, Ron Tonkin Toyota on SE 122nd Street in Portland, OR (now owned by Gee Automotive out of Spokane WA) finally agreed to pay for the new brake assembly and additional damages.

(Here's some legal disclaimer stuff: This post is purely my opinion and Ron Tonkin Toyota/Gee Automotive does not admit fault but simply paid me "to buy peace" ...or whatever.)

Here's how that went down...

• I sent them an email asking them to cover the cost of the work, but they refused.
• I then asked them to have their insurance company investigate the matter, they did, refused to cover it based in part according to the investigator on a contradictory statement made by the Kuni Lexus service rep who told me something totally different, I then discovered the Lexus rep used to work for/with these guys at Ron Tonkin and it seemed, in my opinion, that he changed his tune to support his former co-workers in the matter rather than me, his customer. I explained this to the insurance dude, he didn't change his determination.
• I sent Tonkin a notice to pay in 30-days or I would file a lawsuit. They didn't meet my deadline so I filed in small claims.
• They then opted to push it to a civil trial (you can do that in Oregon under some circumstances) so I hired an attorney on contingency basis (no up front costs, I pay him a minority percentage of the award only if I win, nothing owed if I lose). We refiled the case in civil court exactly as they wished, but also added in a line for additional "punative damages" which I was now open to ask for since the $5,000 small claims limit is lifted, and those damages can be any amount, $20,000, $100,000, half a million, whatever a judge might agree to for the risk to me and my family while we unknowingly drove around in an arguably dangerous vehicle.
• Their attorney read through the evidence and I understand determined it was in the best interest of his client to settle with me rather than go to trial.
• I got my costs covered, my attorney paid, and will be enjoying a nice dinner and a few tanks of gas courtesy of the owner of Ron Tonkin Toyota/Gee Automotive. Thanks dude.

If you have a problem with a dealer here's the recommended steps to take:
1) Try to work it out with them directly first, but keep EVERYTHING in writing, do not accept phone calls as any statements made will be your word against theirs. If you instigate the conversation in person at the dealer, be sure to have someone there with you to serve as your witness. (I was fortunate to have my two elderly parents with me who heard every statement the technicians made to me.)
2) Failing that, send them invoices for all costs and make a demand for payment, generally allow them at least 30-days to settle.
3) Failing that, sue in small claims if the damages are low enough to qualify, this varies state by state.
4) Failing that, or if the costs are too high for small claims, sue them in civil court using the contigency method described above. Most State Bar organizations have a referral service that's free to use where you make a request and they match you up with an attorney. That's how I managed to get such a great one.
5) Take your vehice to indie specialist shops from now on.

 

[ton504]

The squeaky wheel got the grease. If they tested the high pressure switch they would have saw it was out of spec. I bet it was toast and the reason why they sold the vehicle. Nobody wants to pay 3k for the booster assembly including myself but I did anyway.

 

[2001LC]

I would like to know what DTC/Codes were found if any?

In reading between the lines, I can give a very reasonable explanation as what happened.

When first shop flushed the brake system they made to errors for sure.

1) First when shop was done with job, they must not have tested the booster motor run time. Or it would not have run more than <40 seconds at that time or just after when you picked up. FSM Spec is 30 to 40 seconds run time after evacuation of fluid from accumulator. FSM states; if not withing range of 30 to 40 sec., re-bleed. Actually what I find very often, in our ageing fleet. Is a leak(s) after bleeding at bleeder(s) themselves. Your pump running 5 minutes after flushing, indicates system is taking way to long to reach full pressurization. Leak and or air in the system will cause this. Air in system will yield spongy pedal. Low level would indicate it had a leak, if it was actually low. So will a bad motor, pump, accumulator or even failing pressure switch. Running that long is hard on the motor and pump. In the 200 series FSM, Toyota now has a warning, to not run brake booster motor for extended periods when servicing (1 minute IIRC of run time).

2) Finding fluid around and under brake master reservoir, indicates they over filled. But could be spillage also! FSM states do not over fill. Toyota is so concerned with this, they added the procedure for topping, embossing it on the reservoir. Why shop don't read this IDK. I mean it right in there face, when adding fluid. I find reservoir overfilled in ~30 100 & 200 series I inspect.

Your taking back in shop, and they top while key on tells me they (SM or whomever did that) doesn't know correct procedure. As I said Toyota went to, extra expenses, to make sure we top correctly.

Not topping correctly does do damage. But my theory on this suggest damage takes a long time to accrue. Other than brake fluid damages paint. I believe brake fluid it gets into boots of motor resistance wire, due to overfilling, increase resistance over time (years). That this leads to early motor failure.

Your booster motor "run maybe two or three 1-second intervals to pressurize" (pre-flush) is not normal. Normal is to run for up to <40 seconds, with one or two millisecond pauses as it builds pressure. I usually hear booster motor run for about 15 second, rig after sitting parked over night, if I wait to crank engine which muffles the sound. This may have indicated you had a issue pre-flush, or maybe your just heard it wrong. Motor may have be hitting dead spot on commutator, run the stop then run, is one possible answer for 1 second run times.

Motor and pump wear, sooner with more use. Mileage doesn't tell the whole story. Obviously HWY miles one uses brake less, if they're not a "throttle jockey tail gator" City stop and go, one uses brakes more often.

Here's example of worn out commutator with three dead spots between under-cuts. This motor would run then not then run again.

In your case motor running so much (5 minutes at a time) after flushing indicates job not done correctly. In that they did not test before letting out of the shop, to get proper motor run time squared away. Just bleeding the system they didn't hurt it, I've tried. With whatever issue was not resolved before leaving shop. Then each time you turned on the key, motor ran excessively for one reason or other. This is incompetency! So for this you may have a case!

Fact is most shop put a tech on mundane task like brakes, rather than higher hourly rate senior mechanic's. I' found issue from this cost saving of shops, time and time again.

It's likely your motor or pump failed. If so, likely it was on the way out. Just was earlier than would have been. That may be a good thing, as you weren't 500 miles down some off road trial high on a mountain somewhere. If it was "run maybe two or three 1-second intervals to pressurize" this was probably going to happen very soon. anyway!

If you get old parts and send to me. I'll tear them down and post back my findings. Findings, will be added to my data base I'm building on brake failure. It may help all stakeholders.

 

[CloudCity]

I would like to know what DTC/Codes were found if any?

This is incompetency! So for this you may have a case!

Hi and thank you for the reply. I don't believe there were any codes written on my paperwork, just mention of codes, but I will have a look and share if I can find them. Also wish to clarify (and added same to top of first post) that the case was settled out of court so it is a done deal for me, but certainly can be of use to others who find themselves in this predicament. It's not cute nor fun. I hope others can avoid or at least mitigate their issues with your knowledge.
Sent you an email after I saw your PM.