CV axle question

[sleepdoc]

Two posts up he said he used new.

Sounds like the groove the ring sits in is worn. I'd push the hub back on and thoroughly clean the axle stub end with brake cleaner. Then inspect with a magnifying glass and see if the splines in the groove have become beveled a little. If they are, you could maybe try a needle file to get them back to a square edge and then use a thicker clip, but you may also be headed for a new CV.

Yes...new snap ring. I bought all five sizes and we chose the one that was originally removed.
Great idea to check and file if worn down a little. I still have four snap rings so surely one would fit.

It is still really difficult to pull through the hub. I could't do it by hand so used the bolt in the end and a large washer for resistance against the hub to pull axle in while tightening bolt. Should it be that difficult to pull through?

 

[2001LC]

Go back and read through the post in the links I provided you. Then you'll understand how to DIY this issue, or at minimum you'll be able to asked the right question of your shop of choice. Believe me, most shop just do not know or take the time do the wheel bearing service job correctly.

IMHO snap rings fall off for one main reason, improper wheel bearing and axle bushing & bearing service. No doubt your snap ring gap and wheel bearing preload was set to loose long ago. Service includes inspection of snap ring groove.

You must have a perfect 90 degree angle at the end of axle along with proper depth, to make a good seat for snap ring. I'll bet your teeth at end of axle are rounded (as TM suggested) and hub flange contact surface is damaged.

Here is a damaged snap ring, cone washer and hub flange contact surface. Sorry I don't have a file picture of snap ring groove of axle with teeth rounded.

When I grease the axle bushing & needle bearing by hand or with the Slee - Spindle Grease Tool, it makes pulling the axle out (through) to check snap ring gap difficult. The grease fills the cavity where the oil seal & bushing, seats, with dust cover & axle. You may have some crud pack into this area in backside of steering knuckle and or seals damaged.

You can inspect from backside by pushed the axle in. On this one it revealing dust cover and oil seal missing. The area was packed with crud as was bushing & needle bearing.

I pull the knuckle to thoroughly clean and inspect the axle, dust cover, oil seal, brass bushing & needle bearing. I do this on each high mileage rig I work on the first time, while servicing the wheel bearings.

 

[sleepdoc]

2001LC, That is great advice and probably something that needs to be done anyway. I have ordered the bearings service kit (and then some) from cruiser outfitters (@cruiseroutfit) and will have help from DirtDawg again this weekend. Thanks for the suggestion. Hope it does the job.

 

[2001LC]

Great, you guy's have fun.

You'll most likely want a new hub flanges on each side, there $50 ea.. That and swapping your front drive shaft from one side to the other can really help with the N to D clunk. New Ft drive shaft are even a better match-up with the new hub flanges. I say this because I'm betting you have free play where axle teeth & hub flange teeth mesh.

BTW, the brass axle bushing can be sanded smooth with emery cloth if lightly damaged. Use a sand block to keep surface flat. Keep in mind the thinner it gets from sanding or wear, the thicker of a snap ring will be needed to compensate.

 

[DirtDawg]

Great, you guy's have fun.

You'll most likely want a new hub flanges on each side, there $50 ea.. That and swapping your front drive shaft from one side to the other can really help with the N to D clunk. New Ft drive shaft are even a better match-up with the new hub flanges. I say this because I'm betting you have free play where axle teeth & hub flange teeth mesh.

BTW, the brass axle bushing can be sanded smooth with emery cloth if lightly damaged. Use a sand block to keep surface flat. Keep in mind the thinner it gets from sanding or wear, the thicker of a snap ring will be needed to compensate.

Will inspect further upon bearing service, but I did not notice any discernible wear between the CV splines and drive plate when reinstalling snap ring. (Despite it being coated in grease)

 

[2001LC]

New snap ring falling off is good indicator axle & hub flange took a beating.

The N to D clunk is first indicator teeth of hub flange & axle teeth are worn. Quick test would be to raise wheel off ground and slightly rotate back & forth while watching front drive shaft for any lag in rotation (takes a keen eye). But with snap ring off at this time, these may not be good indicators. Close inspection of each components would have to be final call.

To have local Dealer order in (usually not stocked) and have on hand may save time. I'd also locate two rebuilt OEM front drive shafts (AKA CV's) and have standing by or locate a machine shop to square up axle groove(s). Unfortunately OEM outboard tulip (axle) is no longer sold separately, or so my local Toyota parts guy's has informed me.

I can say this; Shop's at Toyota Dealer's (when car is under warrantee) with this N to D clunk will always replace both the front drive shafts and hub flange with new OEM. This is costly but best practice, otherwise they'll chase the clunk. Not under warrantee they replace both sides with new OEM hub flanges and use a rebuilt or aftermarket front drive shafts (reduce cost ~$500).

Speaking with CVJ here in Denver they feel some play is ok. Where as Toyota master mechanic states zero play is spec. My feeling is some play is to be expected with high mileage, but can be mitigated without spending big bucks.

As far as rebuild axle are concerned, they will almost always have some wear of axle teeth yielding play. Personally I'd take a new OEM hub flange with me as tool to aid in cherry picking a rebuilt axle. One idea CVJ and I came up with is swapping front dive shafts from side to side. As direction of travel side has greatest wear, reversing adds some new life (bit).

With this hub flange there was just the tinniest bit of noticeable lag/play with snap ring off observable between axle and hub flange. Once hub flange removed cleaned and view from back side I could see teeth where half gone. The metal of the hub flange appears a bit softer than the axle, so it always takes the greatest amount of wear.

As I said, the fact the snap ring fell off again indicates the groove in the axle has taken a beating. Filling a nice 90 degree angle may help in short term. But I could never get a perfectly square 90 degree angle, 360 degrees around the groove of axle, a machine shop can.

I know most like replacing bearings and races, but I'm more concerned with axle and hub. I've never seen a wheel bearing strand a 100 series, but have seen (read about) many hub flange failure resulting in calls for help.

 

[DirtDawg]

New snap ring falling off is good indicator axle & hub flange took a beating.

The N to D clunk is first indicator teeth of hub flange & axle teeth are worn. Quick test would be to raise wheel off ground and slightly rotate back & forth while watching front drive shaft for any lag in rotation (takes a keen eye). But with snap ring off at this time, these may not be good indicators. Close inspection of each components would have to be final call.

To have local Dealer order in (usually not stocked) and have on hand may save time. I'd also locate two rebuilt OEM front drive shafts (AKA CV's) and have standing by or locate a machine shop to square up axle groove(s). Unfortunately OEM outboard tulip (axle) is no longer sold separately, or so my local Toyota parts guy's has informed me.

I can say this; Shop's at Toyota Dealer's (when car is under warrantee) with this N to D clunk will always replace both the front drive shafts and hub flange with new OEM. This is costly but best practice, otherwise they'll chase the clunk. Not under warrantee they replace both sides with new OEM hub flanges and use a rebuilt or aftermarket front drive shafts (reduce cost ~$500).

Speaking with CVJ here in Denver they feel some play is ok. Where as Toyota master mechanic states zero play is spec. My feeling is some play is to be expected with high mileage, but can be mitigated without spending big bucks.

As far as rebuild axle are concerned, they will almost always have some wear of axle teeth yielding play. Personally I'd take a new OEM hub flange with me as tool to aid in cherry picking a rebuilt axle. One idea CVJ and I came up with is swapping front dive shafts from side to side. As direction of travel side has greatest wear, reversing adds some new life (bit).

With this hub flange there was just the tinniest bit of noticeable lag/play with snap ring off observable between axle and hub flange. Once hub flange removed cleaned and view from back side I could see teeth where half gone. The metal of the hub flange appears a bit softer than the axle, so it always takes the greatest amount of wear.
View attachment 1407353


As I said, the fact the snap ring fell off again indicates the groove in the axle has taken a beating. Filling a nice 90 degree angle may help in short term. But I could never get a perfectly square 90 degree angle, 360 degrees around the groove of axle, a machine shop can.

I know most like replacing bearings and races, but I'm more concerned with axle and hub. I've never seen a wheel bearing strand a 100 series, but have seen (read about) many hub flange failure resulting in calls for help.

Did not read that there was a discernible clunk when changing gears. Will fully inspect this weekend when we check out the bearings and evaluate the situation.

I'll take good care of him.

 

[2001LC]

Did not read that there was a discernible clunk when changing gears. Will fully inspect this weekend when we check out the bearings and evaluate the situation.

I'll take good care of him.

I didn't read that either, was just speaking in general of indication & test.

I'm sure you will, and darn nice of you too help out.

 

[DirtDawg]

I didn't read that either, was just speaking in general this is indication & test.

I'm sure you will, and darn nice of you too help out.

Always willing to help a fellow mudder' in need

 

[sleepdoc]

Well, with the invaluable help from @DirtDawg, he and my son, @SauceJB, did a bearing service on the affected side Saturday and got everything put back together. Dirtdawg mentioned a coupe of small things that could have led to the snap ring coming off but in the end he put on a smaller ring (size D instead of E,) and it seemed to fit snug in the groove. Maybe the larger ring didn't fit down in the groove and would slide off allowing the axle to back out. We checked it today after some driving last night and this morning and it seems to still be in place. Again, thanks to everyone who responded, DirtDawg and @cruiseroutfit (for the parts.) we will likely do the other side bearings soon.

 

[2001LC]

So, how did you guy's pull axle to check gap, and what was it?

 

[DirtDawg]

So, how did you guy's pull axle to check gap, and what was it?

Bolt in axle end, various washers and pipe fitting to space over axle, used that to pull it all through. Then picked the best snap ring that fit, didn't have to use any rocket science.

I would have gotten fancy with my feeler gauges, but it was pretty apparent which snap ring fit.

 

[2001LC]

If I've got the picture right, you removed your pipe fitting that was over axle to then fit snap ring. Just curious

 

[DirtDawg]

If I've got the picture right, you removed your pipe fitting that was over axle to then fit snap ring. Just curious

Correct, basically like using a giant socket

 

[sleepdoc]

It really worked great. The socket wrench on the bolt going into the axle pulled the axle through as bolt advanced. Those washers and pipe fitting were stationary so the only thing mobile was the axle and it moved into place. We struggled to get it by just pulling the bolt using our massive, manly muscles...

 

[Dannyboy lx470]

When you change your cvs axles is it recommended to do a wheel alignment again? .