Yeah Slee only has the heavy's for the rear. May need to look at the OME comp springs, they have a few 4" springs with significantly more spring rate.
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Builds Cummins 6bt/nv4500 build (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Mr Cimarron
- Start date
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Pretty sure I just ran the CDL light wires to my split case 4wd indicator switch on the TC. When I go in 4wd, the center lock indicator turns on. I will double check tomorrow though. I don't have any kind of indicator for 4 low though.
The switch on the TC is on the passenger side right in front of the 2wd / 4wd actuator.
The switch on the TC is on the passenger side right in front of the 2wd / 4wd actuator.
- Thread starter
- #163
That sound right. In my head that's what I want to do.
- Thread starter
- #164
Yeah that may be the way to go. I need to do some digging on here and see who actually has them.
maxamillion2345
Franken-80
Not to pick a fight, but...
Took my roomies 96 cummins nv4500 scouting my hunt area. I knew it was the case but thought I'd drive it again just so I could be certain, it defuels about 22 2300, loses power fast but keeps climbing to about 2700 or so.
The chart you posted really has nothing to do with the p pump governors. Rather, depending on trans year and application they produce different amounts of torque and hp.
For example that chart really only applies to manual trucks for that year. Automatics have lower ratings.
Truly he's better off keeping rpms under 2k or less on the hwy.
http://dodgeram.info/Engine-Diesel/Facts/96specs.html
Didn't say he wouldn't be better keeping it at 1800, but you said he was out of his power band which clearly looking at the graph isn't true. The manual chart and the chart I posted are the same. I quoted 215hp and 440ft/lbs just like your chart. not sure about your "Buddy's truck " but I have driven a s*** ton of Dodge 5.9's and none of them defuel at 2300rpms. Your statement makes no sense, losses power fast but keeps climbing? It either losses power or the power climbs can't do both. The graph from the manufacture clearly shows power climbs to 2700rpms. Period. It couldn't do that if it was "defueling" there is no fight to be had. Your friend's truck might have an issue but I assure you it isn't an issue for everyone else.
- Thread starter
- #167
I have plenty of power well passed 2,200 RPMs. I would like the RPMs to be lower when cruising but I knew that would be an issue going in to it. I could try to source gears from a diesel cruiser from oversees but that's more cost and I would have a problem and lots of downtime if something broke. I could also go to a taller tire but right now I like my ride height at the moment. Getting 20mpg on the highway in the mountains is just fine at the moment. No complaints.
maxamillion2345
Franken-80
Torque falls sharp. I can assure you, factory p pumps start to defuel at that range, period. Look it up (why do you think people do 3k gov springs?) Truck will still gain speed but you lose the torque. Ignore HP, it means little. He's definitely out of his power band over 22, and mileage will suffer. Truck has no issues, that's what 12 valves do. AGAIN HP and Torque has nothing to do with governor speeds, your chart meant absolutely nothing regarding torque curve, that's just a list of max HP and torque, which occurs like 17-2200. HP climbs and that's what I meant that you lose power but the truck won't just stop accelerating until you hit about 27/2800 rpm when it governs out. Read the torque curve. Read the link I posted.
"*The "governed speed" is the highest speed that produces useable power. Above the governed speed, engine power drops VERY quickly." 2700 RPM
One last time, starts to defuel, torque declines quickly, useable power stops at 2700, but torque falls quick just after 2200, you can FEEL it. It still accelerates but doesn't pull like it does at peak torque, ie power band, ie torque curve, ie 16-2200'ish.
His pump is stock minus a 10 fuel plate and some playing with the AFC (by me), but maybe it's more noticeable when making more power.
"loses power fast but (rpms) keeps climbing to about 2700. *before it just stops accelerating all together*
Stock governor springs de-fuel starting at about 2200 RPMS, it's quite noticeable. Governor spring kits allow your IP to fuel up to 3000, 4000, 5000 + RPMS depending on what kit you buy. The popular choice is to do a 4K GSK. It fuels nice and hard throughout the RPM range. If you plan to do a 4K GSK and REV ABOVE ~3250 RPMS, YOU MUST ALSO UPGRAGE THE EXHAUST VALVESPRINGS TO 60LB SPRINGS! Many kits come with both sets:
4000RPM GSK Governor Spring Kit with Heavy Duty Valve Springs 5.9L 12 Valve Cummins
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/verify-have-3k-gsk-t292277.html
"After you have installed the TST torque plate and adapted your driving to it, you will begin to feel that that the engine is running out of steam too soon. The governor begins to restrict fuel rack travel as early as 2100 rpm. and by 2250 rpm the game is over and the engine will not accelerate under a load. This can leave you stuck in 3rd gear with a load on a mountain grade because the engine can't pick up enough speed to allow you to shift into 4th gear. The Piers Diesel Research 3000 rpm governor spring kits will allow the engine to pull strongly to at least 2700 rpm before the governor begins to pull back the fuel. "
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/GovSpring.htm
Anyway glad you find it acceptable Mr Cimarron.
"*The "governed speed" is the highest speed that produces useable power. Above the governed speed, engine power drops VERY quickly." 2700 RPM
One last time, starts to defuel, torque declines quickly, useable power stops at 2700, but torque falls quick just after 2200, you can FEEL it. It still accelerates but doesn't pull like it does at peak torque, ie power band, ie torque curve, ie 16-2200'ish.
His pump is stock minus a 10 fuel plate and some playing with the AFC (by me), but maybe it's more noticeable when making more power.
"loses power fast but (rpms) keeps climbing to about 2700. *before it just stops accelerating all together*Stock governor springs de-fuel starting at about 2200 RPMS, it's quite noticeable. Governor spring kits allow your IP to fuel up to 3000, 4000, 5000 + RPMS depending on what kit you buy. The popular choice is to do a 4K GSK. It fuels nice and hard throughout the RPM range. If you plan to do a 4K GSK and REV ABOVE ~3250 RPMS, YOU MUST ALSO UPGRAGE THE EXHAUST VALVESPRINGS TO 60LB SPRINGS! Many kits come with both sets:
4000RPM GSK Governor Spring Kit with Heavy Duty Valve Springs 5.9L 12 Valve Cummins
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/verify-have-3k-gsk-t292277.html
"After you have installed the TST torque plate and adapted your driving to it, you will begin to feel that that the engine is running out of steam too soon. The governor begins to restrict fuel rack travel as early as 2100 rpm. and by 2250 rpm the game is over and the engine will not accelerate under a load. This can leave you stuck in 3rd gear with a load on a mountain grade because the engine can't pick up enough speed to allow you to shift into 4th gear. The Piers Diesel Research 3000 rpm governor spring kits will allow the engine to pull strongly to at least 2700 rpm before the governor begins to pull back the fuel. "
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/GovSpring.htm
Anyway glad you find it acceptable Mr Cimarron.
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Cool bro you quoted a company trying to sell their product I am sure it is totally unbiased. :thumbs up:
Also good to know that actual dynos, long recognized as the standard to see true power output have been surpassed by Diesel bro's butt dynos.
If the power output is climbing, it is not doing that on less fuel. Those 3k, 4k spring kits allow you to rev higher and he may want to do that in the future but your comment about being out of the power band is still wrong. The right comment might be, the motor would be happier at 1800rpms, you would use less fuel, less stress to stock components, etc, but having less power is just not true
Also good to know that actual dynos, long recognized as the standard to see true power output have been surpassed by Diesel bro's butt dynos.
If the power output is climbing, it is not doing that on less fuel. Those 3k, 4k spring kits allow you to rev higher and he may want to do that in the future but your comment about being out of the power band is still wrong. The right comment might be, the motor would be happier at 1800rpms, you would use less fuel, less stress to stock components, etc, but having less power is just not true
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- Thread starter
- #170
I'll have to do some research on this. All the Cummins upgrades that I have seen sound temping and I am a tinker but right now the pocket book says STOP. We will see how things look in the future.
Max, I am not going to clutter Mr. Cimarron's thread up with any more nonsense, he has stated that his truck has plenty of power from 2200 to 2700. There are a lot of ways to get more power and higher rev ranges from the cummins series of engines, you should probably start another thread so that you can expand on all of them for the guys going to cummins swaps.
Mr. Cimarron, Awesome to see that you are enjoying your truck with the new power plant! The 80 really seems to come alive to me with more power! Feels like a modern car again. Good luck and let me know if you ever get ahold of JMS for that dyno, I am very curious!
Mr. Cimarron, Awesome to see that you are enjoying your truck with the new power plant! The 80 really seems to come alive to me with more power! Feels like a modern car again. Good luck and let me know if you ever get ahold of JMS for that dyno, I am very curious!
I have the Marks gears in my TC, I think they are 9% higher OD and a bit lower low range. Love then. I can cruise at 70 at about 2000 rpm on 35s. They are noisy thought, you can hear them whine a bit. Not cheap either.
maxamillion2345
Franken-80
I quoted a lot of people. Fact, that's how a p pump works. Fact dyno charts plot a torque curve, it's not disputable. But hey, resort to calling names and backing out of the conversation, or just admit you have no idea what you're speaking of. Let me know when you tune a pump yourself or swap something yourself. I posted several links, clearly everyone made it all up. We're all a bunch of diesel bros. That company is lying too, no one understands p pumps, they've only been on cummins since 93, and so no one can call em out on that. ...and if you can't feel when your engine stops pulling you're an idiot, no butt dynoing involved. You can see it on the dyno chart from cummins, but I suspect you don't understand torque. You could also read it in any of the links I posted but nah, it's all BS, made up, no one understands p pumps except you, with all your experience driving them around. BD, Schied, Gillette, Innovative, Industrial Injection, they'd all tell you the same. I'm not an innovator but I'm not stupid and I can read a damn torque curve, and I can read what the pros have said, and guys who have tested their products. First hand experience always helps too but in that case I guess there's just something wrong with the truck... of course. Oh and his too...
"ive had my 3k gsk in the truck for over 10 months now, and i love it. recently i had the oportunity to dyno my truck at the fall brawl, and was happy with the hp and torque readings, but i studied the dyno charts and it seems like the truck was defueling heavily at about 2800rpm. is that a good defuel rpm with the 3k springs, or should it be higher? my other question is can i go back in the pump and make the springs one click tighter and will that raise the defuel rpm to maybe 3000, 3,200 rpm? my top end seems ok, but i think i can get more out of it."
HP= TQxRPM / 5252 Torque is measured, HP is calculated, HP means little with these cummins, we're looking for torque! That's what you feel, and you can feel it drop off. That 3k GSK keeps the pump fueling longer, keeping the torque curve flatter, longer, making for a better driving experience, with more useable power between shifts.
P.S. Swapped my cummins myself, have a degree in diesel tech, mechanic.
PPS I'm not going to let your misinformation go uncorrected, sorry.
As for our friend, a 3k gsk will make the truck much more driveable. Do some searching on them, definitely a worthwhile upgrade. Right now you have to shift a little too quick. With the 3k you won't need new valve springs either.
Go punch it in 2nd and let it wind up, you'll feel it start to slow significantly around 2300 and then it'll stop accelerating a little past 2700 and it'll just maintain speed. It's especially apparent going up a hill.
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- Thread starter
- #174
Nice. I almost got the gears when I was collecting parts for the swap. Still on my list.
Cool thanks Diesel Bro, I hope you can come up with some real numbers. Glad to see your Deisel Degree included learning how to calculate hp, something 15 year old high school kids know. lol. If you think your long winded rants change facts, time to go back to school.
You specifically said he was out of his power band. He obviously is not, power band goes to 2700+ rpms. If you would have said you weren't making peak torque, that would have been true, but that is not what you said. Facts are he is in his power band. Like I said yes there are many other ways to make a lot more power with the 5.9. You said he was spinning too high of an rpm, making more power doesn't change that. I did agree that getting rpms down to 1800 would be ideal but no need to go changing a bunch of things when it will work great as it is.
Glad to see your Deisel Degree included learning how to calculate hp, something 15 year old high school kids know. lol. If you think your long winded rants change facts, time to go back to school. You specifically said he was out of his power band. He obviously is not, power band goes to 2700+ rpms. If you would have said you weren't making peak torque, that would have been true, but that is not what you said. Facts are he is in his power band. Like I said yes there are many other ways to make a lot more power with the 5.9. You said he was spinning too high of an rpm, making more power doesn't change that. I did agree that getting rpms down to 1800 would be ideal but no need to go changing a bunch of things when it will work great as it is.
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maxamillion2345
Franken-80
Again, an indefensible position and inexcusable personal attacks. I wonder why? I've cited plenty of resources, plenty of rational, all you've done is thrown s***, pathetic.
Oh but wait, I thought you were above muddying Mr. Cimarrons thread with non-sense. Yet you keep calling me names and posting non-sense? All while I'm posting actual tech. Nice.
Guess we're done here. I've posted plenty of info, the informed person could read through this and see for themselves. In fact I'm sure Mr. Cimarron could check into it for himself and he should. A 3k GSK will do wonders for him at little cost and time.
I've cited plenty of resources, plenty of rational, all you've done is thrown s***, pathetic.Oh but wait, I thought you were above muddying Mr. Cimarrons thread with non-sense. Yet you keep calling me names and posting non-sense? All while I'm posting actual tech. Nice.
Guess we're done here. I've posted plenty of info, the informed person could read through this and see for themselves. In fact I'm sure Mr. Cimarron could check into it for himself and he should. A 3k GSK will do wonders for him at little cost and time.
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I have been nothing but logical in laying out the facts the personal attacks aren't attacks they are clearly poking fun at how awesome your knowledge must be if you went all the way and got a degree! But guess you missed the part on Power bands. The charts you posted after the exact chart I posted shows "power" to not cut at 2200. The very definition of "power band" incase you need a refresher is the point from peak torque to peak hp, so the power band for the 5.9 in stock form is roughly 1750-2750.
That is not arguable. Keep trying to diffuse to lame posts you quote. But answer these 3 questions.
What rpm is peak torque?
What rpm is peak hp?
Is the truck between those two?
Then he is in his power band.
Would he be better off for the reasons I already posted to spin 1800rpms at cruise? Yes. Is he in the power band at cruise now? Yes. Facts are facts, you can go back and change your statement and say "well ummm I meant torque not power band" and that is fine, but as you said it you are defending an indefensible position.
That is not arguable. Keep trying to diffuse to lame posts you quote. But answer these 3 questions.
What rpm is peak torque?
What rpm is peak hp?
Is the truck between those two?
Then he is in his power band.
Would he be better off for the reasons I already posted to spin 1800rpms at cruise? Yes. Is he in the power band at cruise now? Yes. Facts are facts, you can go back and change your statement and say "well ummm I meant torque not power band" and that is fine, but as you said it you are defending an indefensible position.
Holy soap opera, cant you two take this to PM and stop cluttering up this build thread. The OP is happy with his swap and enjoying it. No need to argue his setup needs a change, only he can and will make that choice.
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maxamillion2345
Franken-80
Power band by definition is what you say however I've said many times to follow the torque curve and that you will find that it peaks between 17 and 22 and after 22 it drops substantially. Again my original point was that the P 7100 pumps starts to defuel around 22 or 2300 rpm's. When that happens peak torque drops significantly which is why the 3K Gov. Spring kit is so good it extends your peak torque range and there's really no reason to be outside of that peak torque. Again optimal range for cummins is like 17-22 +- stock.
Oh and extend that peak torque range and I'm sure you can figure out what happens to HP.
But really I think this is what it's coming down to for you, and HP in a low revving diesel is just not comparable to gas engines.
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/5368618-post3.html
I know it's rare and confusing to have actual tech on mud...
Here's My random contribution. I had a 4k governor spring put in and changed the valve springs. My truck runs great now, gives me a little more time between shifting and it gets up to speed faster.
Sorry no charts, no graphs No data, just my personal experience.
Sorry no charts, no graphs No data, just my personal experience.
