I matched up the length of the factory springs to the ones I replaced with (tough dog) I know they had markings. I used common sense and just put the taller one on the same side the taller one came out of.
Correcting a KDSS lean
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Nah I’ve seen folks with my identical Tough Dog lift on the same 2013 model year with similar mileage need to reverse them as to mine. I can’t recall who it was, maybe tlc2013? That’s with KDSS valves opened so something else is at play. I’m sure different kits act differently too of course
I don’t know…i just don’t think Toyota is that careless with their cars to not appropriately adapt RHD vs. LHD models. We’re talking about possible safety (braking, handling, emergency maneuvers, etc.) ramifications. Here is a company that spent $$$ R&D to retune the whole Tacoma TRD suspension just because Tacoma’s new rims are 5 lbs lighter than before. And if you guys are right, then Toyota willingly ignored this thru several cycles of facelifts for the past 13 years. And we’re talking about Toyota’s (and Lexus) halo vehicle here.
I bought my 2013 CPO in 2016 but my headlights were clearly aimed for RHD with the drivers side much higher than the passenger side. Sometimes I wonder…
bloc
SILVER Star
The right rear spring in a US market 2013 lc200 was used only in this market, and LHD 8-seat lift back cruisers with four different engines in the gulf. No RHD model got this specific number. The right spring was used in those markets plus Japan.
There is a dizzying array of rear 200 spring part numbers, presumably with slightly different lengths and spring rates. Just in the US market from 08-20 there are five part numbers for the left side, not even including HE. Toyota clearly puts a ton of thought, effort, and cost into the suspension design here and to assume they just toss the same springs into rhd and lhd vehicles seems off the mark.
I do believe sag is a big factor here, and as teckis points out other factors like consistent parking on uneven features can make it progress further. Then the lean puts more weight on the low side and we have a feedback loop.
There is a dizzying array of rear 200 spring part numbers, presumably with slightly different lengths and spring rates. Just in the US market from 08-20 there are five part numbers for the left side, not even including HE. Toyota clearly puts a ton of thought, effort, and cost into the suspension design here and to assume they just toss the same springs into rhd and lhd vehicles seems off the mark.
I do believe sag is a big factor here, and as teckis points out other factors like consistent parking on uneven features can make it progress further. Then the lean puts more weight on the low side and we have a feedback loop.
That is just poorly aimed headlights for some reason. There shouldn’t be a difference in beam aiming for rhd/lhd (FSM actually shows both sides being set at the same height), just a different beam shade/curtain shape inside the headlight to lower the cut-off on the appropriate side for that market.
That's entirely possible, it just seemed odd that the passenger's side was definitely too low and the driver's side definitely too high. Wish I'd taken pics for posterity.
@Madtiger @linuxgod @bloc
I drove myself crazy abiding to the dogma of Toyota perfection and that is one of my main pain points being on MUD.
I was told this spring mismatch information directly from the horses mouth, someone directly responsible for the 200 development team.
I mean, we have more than just this as evidence to the fact of rose colored glasses here.
There is the subject of oil weight among other things.
Nothing i can be told will convince me at this point that 0W-20 is optimal for our 3UR.
There are also a litany of issues with the 200 and some of its parts, starter, water pump, radiator all flawed.
And now im dealing with a broken headlight washer assembly like so many others.
Along with a bunch of QOL issues that wouldn't be possible with the reputed attention to detail the 200 production gets.
What I've been most curious about in regards to the rear spring lately and something i need the mechanical savants here to enlighten me on is wether or not the panhard mounting position has any influence on rear left compression or vice versa.
In regards to LX specifically AHC, im also now VERY curious as to what provisions have been made for the shorter spring.
I know there has to be something more under the hood if even just mechanically to account for this.
There is just no way someone tunes a suspension like AHC and disregards that.
The biggest evidence i have at this point is that the rear AHC sensor arms are DIFFERENT lengths between left and right.
Wether thats a clever provision or a dumb band aid i have yet to see.
Im just not writing Toyota a blank check of approval...
I drove myself crazy abiding to the dogma of Toyota perfection and that is one of my main pain points being on MUD.
I was told this spring mismatch information directly from the horses mouth, someone directly responsible for the 200 development team.
I mean, we have more than just this as evidence to the fact of rose colored glasses here.
There is the subject of oil weight among other things.
Nothing i can be told will convince me at this point that 0W-20 is optimal for our 3UR.
There are also a litany of issues with the 200 and some of its parts, starter, water pump, radiator all flawed.
And now im dealing with a broken headlight washer assembly like so many others.
Along with a bunch of QOL issues that wouldn't be possible with the reputed attention to detail the 200 production gets.
What I've been most curious about in regards to the rear spring lately and something i need the mechanical savants here to enlighten me on is wether or not the panhard mounting position has any influence on rear left compression or vice versa.
In regards to LX specifically AHC, im also now VERY curious as to what provisions have been made for the shorter spring.
I know there has to be something more under the hood if even just mechanically to account for this.
There is just no way someone tunes a suspension like AHC and disregards that.
The biggest evidence i have at this point is that the rear AHC sensor arms are DIFFERENT lengths between left and right.
Wether thats a clever provision or a dumb band aid i have yet to see.
Im just not writing Toyota a blank check of approval...
bloc
SILVER Star
I’m not saying they are infallible, or that our trucks are perfect, just pointing out the objective fact that they know far more about setting up suspension than any of us do, and it is logical to assume they made the decisions they did considering business/engineering/safety factors we can’t even begin to understand.
To my knowledge no one here has corner weighted LHD and RHD vehicles to measure the real world differences. Yes the fuel tank is on the right side, but it is inside the frame rail inboard of the right tires so the weight will be distributed partly to the left, and a tank of fuel from full to light-on is only ~125lb anyway.
Your experience leveling your truck is N=1, and I’m glad you found a setup that makes you happy. As discussed people with the same brand of lift have had to run the opposite rear spring orientation as linuxgod to level things.
I’m just saying it isn’t as simple as tossing the same springs in the rear (something that is difficult or expensive for most people running aftermarket suspension) and saying that will work for everyone across the board. Toyota made these decisions for various reasons and we don’t understand what they all are.
Anyone dealing with lean: KDSS is extremely unlikely to be your base issue, and forcing it to try to correct a lean is not at all how it was designed to operate. Consider going back to new factory springs, or use trim packers to fine tune things.
bloc
SILVER Star
Mine had googly eyes too when I got it, and I learned later had a repainted bumper cover and other indicators of very light front end damage.
All of this is why I don’t trust anyone to work on my car. The attention to detail just isn’t there anymore.
I agree with your position but not all of your reasoning.
I am close to spending the grand or so for a corner scale setup because that is the last piece of my OCD puzzle at this point to really understand how the truck is loaded.
From what we can see, the spring setup being correct for LHD is just not the case and the gas tank is the only thing that would necessitate it as it would seem from a layman perspective. I would bet that anyone with a lean can fix it by matching springs. None of this swap this way that way business. Just match them.
Specially if what you are saying is true about the gas tank weight distribution that wouldn't even load one side to that extent.
If thats the case we need to be digging towards why the springs are mismatched in the first place.
Keep in mind that the reasoning isn't just the tank though, its driver and tank in RHD that is behind the spring offset.
Aside from all of the observational data, I got my information directly from a Toyota product development manager that launched the 200.
If that was a lie, then that is still fine by me because it solved all of my issues.
In the spirit of being thorough, as i always am, i want to know for sure just as you do.
We certainly dont want to cause any issues by "fixing" things. Even if we cant "see" them as the annoying lean can be seen and felt.
Im also not sure how thorough places are with the correct procedural method for settling and balancing suspension, kdss, AHC after doing work.
(or how full the tank is if that matters) Even reputable shops are on the clock. Like you said, no one cares about the details anymore.
There is more to it I'm sure as you and others have pointed out, and perhaps suspensions have settled in a way that the offset now has to be swapped over for a level.
Either way the trucks aren't level and the culprit seems to be the springs even if we are unsure of the cause or intent behind the offset.
Being level isn't stopping me from understanding more, I am with you there. I want to get to the absolute truth, and I hope we can get there as a community.
I want to know why the pan-hard mounting position / direction was chosen for the taller spring side for example, but from my limited knowledge that should not impact compression at all. I know there are people here who can answer that.
Last point, we cant disregard all evidence pointing directly to one thing, inside knowledge, and practicality just because Toyota is the authority here.
They very well may be the most brilliant engineers on the planet, but they are shipping a leaning truck... Even on fully addressable AHC.
Call it engineering superiority, cost saving, safety provision, or just ensuring that single occupant (driver) RHD reviews don't mention too much body roll...
We dont know what we dont know i hear you, but we know it can be fixed without any (obvious) issues.
We have to get to the bottom of this as a community.
Its not acceptable that the most popular and widely shared "fixes" for both LC and LX are over-pressurizing a shock or KDSS component with a sensor or a wood block.
We can be a lot better than that if we work outside of the dogma that it is perfect from the factory.
I can tell you right off the bat with 100% certainty that those fixes do more harm than good. Thats not good enough.
bloc
SILVER Star
I actually don't think understanding why these lean beyond springs sagging is critical to the community and it doesn't warrant more and more paragraphs from me. Plenty of people love these vehicles and what they will do in comfort, lean and all.
Toyota doesn't put the same springs on RHD and LHD trucks, and owners should address lean however they see fit. KDSS is not the way to do it, since that's the topic of the thread. That actually seems to be pretty wide-spread knowledge at this point.
Toyota doesn't put the same springs on RHD and LHD trucks, and owners should address lean however they see fit. KDSS is not the way to do it, since that's the topic of the thread. That actually seems to be pretty wide-spread knowledge at this point.
Its not understanding why they lean at all that is the point. Its understanding why there is a different spring rate left to right.
And quiet to the contrary every single person here would be interested to learn more about the suspension of the LX and LC...
It’s not just the gas tank. The spare sits offset to the right, exhaust lines go to the left, jack and tools are on the right in the trunk, rear A/C is on the left, etc. there’s lots of little differences that likely add up to weight not being identical at each wheel. On top of that if you think about how your rear sway bar is mounted to the frame or how the panhard rod is mounted you’ll realize the suspension is not perfectly symmetrical.
Yes. And subwoofer, AHC resi/pump for LX as well.
I guess if they are accounting for every single excess pound, the LX offset spring rate should be even greater than LC.
We know every single trim practically has different springs with the latest being HE widely discussed here since release.
What i am interested in instead is the left/right differences respective to the single truck outfitted springs pair.
In my LX the springs are noticeably different to the extent i think its more than just weight balance.
Even more curious this all this is how my OG rear left spring came out cracked.
It looks deformed and not just a coating crack.
Something doesn't add up at factory level and my contact told me the exact same thing.
What drives different springs in the rear is an interesting question. I know we've generally assumed a weight delta left to right in the rear. Is that really the reasons, or the only reason?
One would think drivers position impacts the front axle bias more as the steering console and driver is much closer to the font axle. Yet I believe the coilover springs there are the same.
I believe a significant part of the spring difference at the rear has to do with driveline torque. IIRC it rotates in the counter-clockwise direction when viewed from the drivers seat orientation. This rotation causes compressive forces on the passenger side and elongation forces on the drivers side. So the rear springs may be compensating for this dynamic force when driving. And may be a compromise to static level at rest?
One would think drivers position impacts the front axle bias more as the steering console and driver is much closer to the font axle. Yet I believe the coilover springs there are the same.
I believe a significant part of the spring difference at the rear has to do with driveline torque. IIRC it rotates in the counter-clockwise direction when viewed from the drivers seat orientation. This rotation causes compressive forces on the passenger side and elongation forces on the drivers side. So the rear springs may be compensating for this dynamic force when driving. And may be a compromise to static level at rest?
A very good point. How much of that would be in the transfer case and how much in the rear drive bias? Is that what the transfer damper is for?
I have no way of measuring that or experiencing it from the drivers seat but what I have noticed is the serious reduction in wag over bumps as well as the more controlled and linear bucking afterwards.
I invite anyone to take my LX for a comparison drive here in Austin or Houston which I go to often.
I've read the LX springs are softer as AHC setting and the ride adjustments (sport/comfort) come into play to fine tune the total performance available to you.
Yes they are which I think may also be exacerbating the imbalance.
