Maybe this helps confuse the water/air thang!
Bolt on turbo kit (30 Viewers)
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Kind of but he miss uses/interchanges turbo lag with throttle response but they are two very different things. An A/W will help with throttle response but turbo lag will be the same with both since it’s a function of turbo size vs exhaust gas.
And he makes the generalization that the A/A will be more efficient than the A/W but that’s really only the case at high speed where the A/A will be at maximum efficiency at slow speeds it will not have the efficiency that an A/W with a fan does.
I think the biggest reason BMW switched is the throttle response. When you modulate the throttle you don’t want to wait for the turbo to pressurize 8’ of 3” tubing and a big A/A intercooler you want the smallest intake volume possible to feel the most connected to the engine. My $0.02.
And he makes the generalization that the A/A will be more efficient than the A/W but that’s really only the case at high speed where the A/A will be at maximum efficiency at slow speeds it will not have the efficiency that an A/W with a fan does.
I think the biggest reason BMW switched is the throttle response. When you modulate the throttle you don’t want to wait for the turbo to pressurize 8’ of 3” tubing and a big A/A intercooler you want the smallest intake volume possible to feel the most connected to the engine. My $0.02.
And @LandCruiserPhil's thought about creating a vortex to pull non heated air in from the sides is kind of a similar idea.
That idea crossed my mind as well, but here's the counter-argument:
If lower efficiency for the secondary coolers (AC condensor, tranny cooler) was the design goal, then make it thinner and/or more open - so lighter, cheaper, lower pressure drop, lower temperature rise (for the air flowing through to the primary radiator). But full size and properly edge sealed for well defined and consistent performance.
I mean, that's what I would do. If I wanted less, then deliberately design it for less...which is why it puzzles me.
They seem to have designed it for more, but settled for less by being a bit sloppy.
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I think some have taken this approach too. Old school volvo 4/7/9 series and saab 9000 intercoolers, CTD intercoolers, and I'm sure some others, cover the entire area of the radiator, but are much thinner than your typical A/A. I can't comment on the CTD and can't quite recall the layout on the 9000 and 9-5, but the volvo intercooler stacked right into the same shroud as the radiator. Thats IC, AC condenser and radiator all piled together, mechanical fan in the shroud, pusher on the front for when the AC is on:
Ultimately it might not make much difference which route is taken by an automaker, or it may depend on the amount of real estate at the front of the vehicle.
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Well...that's really interesting about Volvo & Saab taking that approach, and that's A/A too.
I think that architecture with W/A would be even sleeker because :
1) Small to/from pipes - easy routing through/over a frame not designed for it.
2) Small end tanks for fluid, like A/C condenser end tanks.
3) Thin low obstruction water tubing in the heat exchanger.
4) Thinner overall, because you're using the entire frontal surface area, with the heat capacity of water.
You can see how direct their to/from piping is - lower tube volume for decent throttle response.
But their top frame is clearly designed for this. It's lower than typical so the pipes can go right over the top.
Most vehicles (Landcruisers) don't have that top clearance, nor room for air volume end tanks.
So - for W/A - A really thin core, end-tank style (low volume), conventional radiator.
Something designed for a small low power engine.
Or - here's a thought - hack a micro-tube parallel flow A/C condenser, but with with 3/4" barb ports for water flow soldered on.
Could it work? Super cheap - $70 - $130 or so, and about 5/8" thick aluminum core.
See recent A/C condenser thread for lots of info : Micro-Tube Parallel Flow Condenser
I think that architecture with W/A would be even sleeker because :
1) Small to/from pipes - easy routing through/over a frame not designed for it.
2) Small end tanks for fluid, like A/C condenser end tanks.
3) Thin low obstruction water tubing in the heat exchanger.
4) Thinner overall, because you're using the entire frontal surface area, with the heat capacity of water.
You can see how direct their to/from piping is - lower tube volume for decent throttle response.
But their top frame is clearly designed for this. It's lower than typical so the pipes can go right over the top.
Most vehicles (Landcruisers) don't have that top clearance, nor room for air volume end tanks.
So - for W/A - A really thin core, end-tank style (low volume), conventional radiator.
Something designed for a small low power engine.
Or - here's a thought - hack a micro-tube parallel flow A/C condenser, but with with 3/4" barb ports for water flow soldered on.
Could it work? Super cheap - $70 - $130 or so, and about 5/8" thick aluminum core.
See recent A/C condenser thread for lots of info : Micro-Tube Parallel Flow Condenser
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NLXTACY
Wits' End
Did an interview with Toyota Trucks and Trails. All of the interview is pure boredom of just me droning on and on. It’ll make you want to push pencils thru your eardrums. But...
Starting at 1:35:20 I start discussing the turbo so for those following this thread it won’t be anything new but some might find it interesting.
http://toyotatrucksandtrails.com/episode-065-my-absolute-wits-end/
Starting at 1:35:20 I start discussing the turbo so for those following this thread it won’t be anything new but some might find it interesting.
http://toyotatrucksandtrails.com/episode-065-my-absolute-wits-end/
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comments around 1:38 sound familiar 
hamishpotter
SILVER Star
great interview!
- Thread starter
- #1,830
You sounded much whiter than I imagined. I thought for sure you would sound like the godfather.
I've heard the whiteness before. When Wits' End was fairly new he called me about an order, at 3am I might add! Dude was mile a minute and not a all Godfather or Jersey Shore. Was disappointed really.
I think for the complete customer service Joey SHOULD go Godfather!
It was cool of him to call and in his defense I had just, like minutes before, completed an order so he knew I was up.
Good dude.
When the time comes I'm going friggin Turbo!
I think for the complete customer service Joey SHOULD go Godfather!
It was cool of him to call and in his defense I had just, like minutes before, completed an order so he knew I was up.
Good dude.
When the time comes I'm going friggin Turbo!
Spent a week in the central CA coast for my daughter’s wedding. Rented an Excursion with the TT eco boost engine and 10 speed trans. I gotta admit, that thing runs really well. Comes on boost fast and if the gauge is to be believed, it runs 17-ish psi. I’m assuming it has small turbos. Never had time to crawl around under the hood. Enjoyed the little-bitty turbo whine.
Curious did you estimate or know the mpg?
Right at 18 in mixed driving. Didn’t ask for premium either. It actually got that Excursion up and moving in a hurry. CA has really short on ramps.
NLXTACY
Wits' End
Wait til you drive the 110 in Pasadena.
Back in TX now. Drove the 94 80 to dinner a while ago. Needs boost! I know. This kit won’t go on the 94...
FastCarGuy
SILVER Star
Right at 18 in mixed driving. Didn’t ask for premium either. It actually got that Excursion up and moving in a hurry. CA has really short on ramps.
No more Excursions...probably an Expedition?
No more Excursions...probably an Expedition?
You’re right. Expedition.
they are impressive! doesn't act like a small engine working really hard either and revs less then the V8. I have the HO version of that same motor and with a simple plug in tuner its close to 5 sec 0-60, ~500hp
except for the horrible throttle response cuz its A to A....JK
I have a CanAm UTV that is 900cc makes 172hp at similar boost on pump gas.
part of what makes me want a turbo on everything.
