AWD Braking Discussion: Ideal Brake Force Distribution

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Thanks Curtis,

YES! I do drive with CDL all the time when its snow packed roads at any speed.

I am right with SUMO with driving it on road with snow deep enough that your tires are not touching the road. I would NEVER lock it if they were touching the roadway.
For this expirement Sumotoy wants you do drive on any type surface of road, as long as it is uniform, ie. all dry, all wet, all icy...

1) Having bigger tires could make a difference in our opinions. My rig will lock up easily and slide sideways when making turns without it. NOT THE OPPOSITE like you would think!!!!!



2) IMHO it is better described as gear braking like downshifting for down hills. Not better brake proportioning which I have said before. On super steep hills and snowy roads I like the control that the driveline provides and will trust it any day over brakes!!

Just because everyone Roasted SUMO on another issue this summer doesnt mean he is all wrong.

Seems like everyone is assuming the CDL reacts like lock the front or rear diff. It will not break tires free like that.

A locked center diff works exactly like a front/rear locked diff in that it sends equal torque 2 different ways. When you turn a corner your front tires/axle collectively turn a different radius than your rear tires/axle, there is no where for the torque except to cause your front wheels to slip. It will cause tires to "break free" or slip/scrub, just not as much as front/rear diff locks. You may very well be able to drive better in deep snow with CDL locked, it wouldn't suprise me.

Example: 40's on a 4"lift??? You are an idiot that will never work. Think for yourself. If you dont have snow, are not worried about your control, or have never experimented. . . Do us a favor and keep your repeditive comments to yourself:cheers:

He isn't really talking about driving in snow, so maybe some comments need to repeated...
 
So...........


What we are trying to figure out is how to keep the front end from diving and the back end from unloading while the abs is activated.....


Easy answer:

ATV electric winch +- 150 bucks.

Rig two short cables to it--one to either side of the axle so that it will wind up both evenly

One arming switch.

One relay tied into the brake light circuit or an auxiliary sensor that senses when the abs kicks on.

When you press the brake, the winch winds up to a preset stop and therefore lowers the rear end, compressing the springs and eliminating body roll and dive. Couple this with a disconnected LSPV and methinks you'd have a pretty awesome braking system......


that is, if the OEM one didn't work fine in the first place.

Here you have the benefits of IBFD and ABS at the same time.

When you let off the brake, the winch releases and the rearend comes back up.

Quick disconnects on the cable for wheeling and that should work pretty slick.

Kinda redneck, but hey, I am no engineer..............
 
ST, contrary to your belief that no one knows what you are talking about, I think most of the posters in this thread comprehend your "post #1" just fine, as I have since I first read it. I will try to create a mutual understanding with the following comment:

I am willing to accept your term "Ideal Brake Force Distribution", as it relates to post #1, if you will agree that it is not frequently ideal for wide variations in driving conditions that most people drive in. IOW, your term Ideal Brake Force Distribution is what you can call it, but it is not ideal in terms of application to everday driving.
 
Im not bashing the ROTW, I was unclear. see my previous post.

There is not too much bindage going on with front right, rear left tires locked (CDL essentially). right?? I am talking about braking control and turning control on snow and ice, with or without ABS. Personally I cannot slow down very fast at all without CDL engaged.

I like to have the same braking distances on snow/ice as I do on pavement cause they arent impressive to start with.

Better to be safe than sorry.
 
ST, contrary to your belief that no one knows what you are talking about, I think most of the posters in this thread comprehend your "post #1" just fine, as I have since I first read it. I will try to create a mutual understanding with the following comment:

I am willing to accept your term "Ideal Brake Force Distribution", as it relates to post #1, if you will agree that it is not frequently ideal for wide variations in driving conditions that most people drive in. IOW, your term Ideal Brake Force Distribution is what you can call it, but it is not ideal in terms of application to everday driving.

Thank you for simplifying it. I tend to get to wordy.
 
Mercy

Gents:
My suggestion? Address Post #1, clarify, ask, correct, gather data, debate the *content* in post #1 of -this- thread. We need a baseline. This isn't an ABS vs Non ABS *argument*. This is a practical ABS/stock vs (CDL) Ideal Brake Force Distribution *COMPARISON*.

Romer: What makes us all different, is that we are. Post #1 is relevent to the 80, it's a simple definition and a simple test. Nothing more. I could present it several other ways, I didn't. IBFD is a simple physics principle applied to vehicle dynamics. It's not my opinion, it needs no research, and everyone can test it. I appreciate your interest in this thread, I feel (and posted privately) your 'moderation' to any content in Post #1 is premature.

FT41. Please agree with post #1 or correct post #1. It is a real world test, and doesn't require a freshly paved road surface. Try a variety of road surfaces. In mixed mu, you just might find that *having* straight line IBFD still yields more predictable overall braking and handling.

Grench. You went too far with this too soon. Just look at post #1. A jump into mixed mu turning+ braking scenarios is a huge can of worms. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the math. Please try experiment #1, the practical example, and post your results.

JA, KLC, lurkers et. al. . Don't let me or anyone else here prevent you from thinking outside the box. I encourage everyone to just print off post 1 and TRY the experiment. On dry pavment (mu .9), wet pavement (mu .5) snow (mu .3) or any other non mixed mu surface. Post up your own conclusions regarding post 1. Those more advanced can try adding a variety of radii/mu into the equation.

I picked a starting point in post #1. A clear definition of Ideal Brake Force Distribution, and a practical test for anyone with the CDL switch to try. I'm quite comfortable with that as a starting point. It's exactly where I start a classroom discussion on the subjec. The difference here is that I can't take the classroom out to the track and practice/demonstrate. I'm also quite comfortable discussing what this basic principle *means* in a wide variety of chassis dynamic contexts.

Are we really there yet if no one has tried the experiment in Post #1?


ST
 
Hi. Name here is Jack in Salt Lake City. Lurker by choice, but will formally introduce myself later. Never posted to Mud before. I have a '97 FZJ80 with a 4 inch lift. The skid test done by the inspection station when I re-licensed my truck indicated the fronts are doing way too much work over the rear brakes. The test showed 115% on front and 60% rear.

My question for ST is, (you probably will get to it in the thread, but I can't wait) is the proportioning valve adjustable and how does the service tech determine how much to adjust? Does he/she repetitively do a skid test until the numbers line up? What should be the ratio of front to rear braking with CDL unlocked?
 
My question for ST is, (you probably will get to it in the thread, but I can't wait) is the proportioning valve adjustable and how does the service tech determine how much to adjust? Does he/she repetitively do a skid test until the numbers line up? What should be the ratio of front to rear braking with CDL unlocked?

Jack:
I'm going to start another thread on this, as you are the second request. See AWD Braking 202: Rear Proportioning Valve Adjustment and Service.

ST
 
Scott,

The "moderation" you commented on had nothing to do on whether your thoughts on ABS vs. non ABS braking were valid. I am concerned that someone might take the previous thread and this one and conclude they should drive with the CDL locked all the time. If my moderation was interpreted as an overreaction by you and others, then so be it. I can't make everyone happy and the only people who don't create controversy or make mistakes are those that don't do anything. Moderation is a gut call and I know I am not right 100% of the time.

I get the point of post #1, or at least you can tell me if I do:

The thought in post #1 is the 80 series proportioning valve does not adequately balance the front and rear brakes providing braking that is not optimum (don't want to use the word ideal). The proportioning valve is only used when the ABS is off (thus the CDL test) and that is the purpose for your test in post #1, not to prove that braking with the CDL is better because the Center Diff is locked, but because the ABS is off.

I say lets take the CDL, or the locking of the center diff out of the equation. There are two ways to disable the ABS:

1) Pull the ABS Fuse

2) Lock the center diff lock switch take it up to 40mph and the then turn off the difflock switch and the ABS has been disabled until the key is turned off

The reason I think the above would be a more valid test is you don't have to consider any additional braking or other factors that locking the center diff may have on your braking test. This changes only one variable rather than two.

In other words, your test goes from a ABSOn/V Coupler to ABSOFF/No V Coupler. I would think locking the front and rear drive shafts together would improve the front and rear braking ratios as they are forced to be at the same speed. Possible this is contrubuting to why the non ABS is better, possibly not.

Edit: corrected Proportioning valve comment to with ABS Off, not on
 
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Got it backwards. Proportining valve works with ABS off not On, correct?
 
Got it backwards. Proportining valve works with ABS off not On, correct?

It works all the time! It's function changes based on CDL mode.

Scott,

The "moderation" you commented on had nothing to do on whether your thoughts on ABS vs. non ABS braking were valid. I am concerned that someone might take the previous thread and this one and conclude they should drive with the CDL locked all the time. If my moderation was interpreted as an overreaction by you and others, then so be it.

Romer, EricG put this in perspective. This thread didn't advocate driving around with CDL on. It advocated a test. I would encourage moderator intervention to be thread exclusive. To put the Disclaimer on this thread was premature, possibly self admitted: "Prejudicial"? (see Eric G post, you tied one thread to the other)


The thought in post #1 is the 80 series proportioning valve does not adequately balance the front and rear brakes providing braking that is not optimum (don't want to use the word ideal).
Ok....

The proportioning valve is not used when the ABS is off (thus the CDL test) and that is the purpose for your test in post #1, not to prove that braking with the CDL is better because the Center Diff is locked, but because the ABS is off.

No. The proportioning valve is always a variable, only applied differently.

CDL-on, rear prop valve directly affects *only* Total Brake Capacity. You can fix the proportioning valve higher (fake increase load), you don't change Brake Proportioning F/R only 'available' brake capacity F/R. The proportioning valve has NO effect on Brake Force Distribution. Any/All Brake Force Distribution follows weight distribution in a straight line.

CDL - off, the proportioning valve affects Rear Brake Force (as a percent of front brake force). The proportioning valve affects the Brake Force Distribution at any given Brake Pressure. Any/All Brake Force Distribution follows proportioning valve changes in relation to changes in rear axle height up to lockup. Actually, even during ABS activation Brake Force distribution follows proportioning valve allocation (you just have more or less ABS intervention)

I say lets take the CDL, or the locking of the center diff out of the equation. There are two ways to disable the ABS:

1) Pull the ABS Fuse

2) Lock the center diff lock switch take it up to 40mph and the then turn off the difflock switch and the ABS has been disabled until the key is turned off
Ok


The reason I think the above would be a more valid test is you don't have to consider any additional braking or other factors that locking the center diff may have on your braking test. This changes only one variable rather than two.

Post #1 has nothing to do with ABS being ACTIVATED or not. ABS isn't enabled until you have impending lockup. Post #1 doesn't assume impending lockup, in fact just the opposite.

In other words, your test goes from a ABSOn/V Coupler to ABSOFF/No V Coupler. I would think locking the front and rear drive shafts together would improve the front and rear braking ratios as they are forced to be at the same speed. Possible this is contrubuting to why the non ABS is better, possibly not.

I'm confused as to any comparison of the ABS function, if it's not Activated, it's not a variable. Proportioning valve operation is independent of ABS operation with CDL off. So, no impending lockup, ABS on or ABS off won't change the test or conclusions in post 1. Rephrased, they will behave the same. You can disable ABS if you want, I just don't see the need.

If you want to isolate the VC as a variable put the truck in neutral in both tests. I don't believe that affects proportioning, only reduces engine overrun load in relation to brake capacity.

ST
 
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This is exactly why I asked you to start with an overview of how the system works and the valve your talking about. I have a hard time following your discussion without understanding the basic premise. But if you would rather throw out a discussion and tell people they are wrong for two pages until they are or never are on the same page as you, fine. Have fun!

Maybe someone else can explain it to me.
 
Gents:
My suggestion? Address Post #1, clarify, ask, correct, gather data, debate the *content* in post #1 of -this- thread. We need a baseline. This isn't an ABS vs Non ABS *argument*. This is a practical ABS/stock vs (CDL) Ideal Brake Force Distribution *COMPARISON*.

Romer: What makes us all different, is that we are. Post #1 is relevent to the 80, it's a simple definition and a simple test. Nothing more. I could present it several other ways, I didn't. IBFD is a simple physics principle applied to vehicle dynamics. It's not my opinion, it needs no research, and everyone can test it. I appreciate your interest in this thread, I feel (and posted privately) your 'moderation' to any content in Post #1 is premature.

FT41. Please agree with post #1 or correct post #1. It is a real world test, and doesn't require a freshly paved road surface. Try a variety of road surfaces. In mixed mu, you just might find that *having* straight line IBFD still yields more predictable overall braking and handling.

Grench. You went too far with this too soon. Just look at post #1. A jump into mixed mu turning+ braking scenarios is a huge can of worms. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the math. Please try experiment #1, the practical example, and post your results.

JA, KLC, lurkers et. al. . Don't let me or anyone else here prevent you from thinking outside the box. I encourage everyone to just print off post 1 and TRY the experiment. On dry pavment (mu .9), wet pavement (mu .5) snow (mu .3) or any other non mixed mu surface. Post up your own conclusions regarding post 1. Those more advanced can try adding a variety of radii/mu into the equation.

I picked a starting point in post #1. A clear definition of Ideal Brake Force Distribution, and a practical test for anyone with the CDL switch to try. I'm quite comfortable with that as a starting point. It's exactly where I start a classroom discussion on the subjec. The difference here is that I can't take the classroom out to the track and practice/demonstrate. I'm also quite comfortable discussing what this basic principle *means* in a wide variety of chassis dynamic contexts.

Are we really there yet if no one has tried the experiment in Post #1?


ST
Several posts back, I already agreed to calling your principle in post #1 "Ideal Brake Force Distribution", having tried it, it seems to have marginal improvements in dive, pedal feel, and possibly stopping distance. Braking performance will improve over stock by having CDL locked and braking in ideal conditions on an ideal surface with an ideal driver under test conditions.

I have never disagreed with the physics, just the practical application of driving with the CDL on to improve braking as a matter of course, in everyday driving. I think it's pretty obvious that a EBD would improve braking, so would better brakes, bigger rotors, 4 channel ABS, lighter vehicle, better rubber. Frankly I had hoped for more than a recommendation to clean/lube and adjust to FSM spec, the proportioning valve, after several threads of "BTDT".

ST please either agree with my post or correct my post.
 
Sorry, this topic is very interesting but is redonkulous to try and follow it. I am in the same boat as Romer.

I swear I read that Sumotoy said he drives w/ CDL locked 90% of the time??? Which is why I asked how you drive w/ the cdl locked w/ it does not want to steer.

At this point, I don't know if this is just theoretical discussion (in which case I don't care) or if there is any actual real-world benefit that I can apply to my driving.

It is very difficult to make something simple and elegant but please, someone try for the benefit of slow ones like me!
 
This is exactly why I asked you to start with an overview of how the system works and the valve your talking about. I have a hard time following your discussion without understanding the basic premise. But if you would rather throw out a discussion and tell people they are wrong for two pages until they are or never are on the same page as you, fine. Have fun!

Maybe someone else can explain it to me.

Ken, It's a complicated subject, speaking to how a proportioning valve function changes in CDL on vs CDL off braking modes. It took me quite a while to explain the above in the terms I did. In reality it's even more complicated when you add in the fact that any engine torque (deceleration) during these events is also allocated differently in the two test conditions. It's all irrelevent to the simple definition and *comparison* in Post #1.

If you do the test in post #1, you can **feel** the difference between Ideal Brake Force Distribution vs. >less than< Ideal Brake Force Distribution. To KISS: I just left it a *given* that CDL-on defines IBFD and CDL-off Defines "less than" IBFD in the test.

I'll be in Steamboat next month. Bring Beer money and a pencil, I can send you home with a stack of napkins on the subject.

ST
 
Several posts back, I already agreed to calling your principle in post #1 "Ideal Brake Force Distribution", having tried it, it seems to have marginal improvements in dive, pedal feel, and possibly stopping distance. Braking performance will improve over stock by having CDL locked and braking in ideal conditions on an ideal surface with an ideal driver under test conditions.

I have never disagreed with the physics, just the practical application of driving with the CDL on to improve braking as a matter of course, in everyday driving. I think it's pretty obvious that a EBD would improve braking, so would better brakes, bigger rotors, 4 channel ABS, lighter vehicle, better rubber. Frankly I had hoped for more than a recommendation to clean/lube and adjust to FSM spec, the proportioning valve, after several threads of "BTDT".

ST please either agree with my post or correct my post.

The major hangup I see here is that IBFD requires some sort of "ideal" condition and operator. That's just not true and *needs* correction. With CDL locked in post 1 any and all brake force (consistent or inconsistent by operator) is allocated ideally in a straight line. Change mu, it holds true. Mixed mu is outside the context of the test or post 1.

FT41, I think you attempt to present with less than ideal conditions you have less than ideal brake force distribution. Possibly. Outside of the scope of Post 1, but let's explore that further. Doesn't changing to mixed mu shift both CDL on and CDL off BOTH further from ideal brake force distribution? It's not automatic to assume at all that CDL off shifts towards IBFD under less than ideal test conditions or real world driving. Insert a huge (Up to and including ABS intevention): It Depends.

I also don't agree that bigger brakes give better braking. That's not true. IME, rarely do they give 'better' braking, maybe (if you are lucky) more consistent braking performance. Example: I design and sell Porsche 993 and 996 brake upgrades for the quattros. Stock: 286mm rotor with 2 piston floating calipers vs 345mm rotor with 4 piston fixed caliper. Braking distance and performance doesn't change. Brake fade does. 4 channel abs doesn't give better braking than 3 channel by adding a channel, due to select low principle. A lighter vehicle doesn't give better braking, weight distribution of a given vehicle might. Better rubber? For what condition? FT, none of the changes you propose necessarily give better braking.

I disagree that you have the concept right as you reworded it above, and your followup examples of 'better braking' needs defining for me to agree with you. Certainly, none of those items in and of themselves necessarily move you closer to Ideal Brake Force Distribution. Many of them move you further away.

What did you do with the proportioning valve on your lifted truck to compensate for lift?

Frankly I hoped for a better understanding of the content of post 1.

HTH

ST
 
Since you think its too complicated to explain I did a google search to find the answer:


[SIZE=+1]Proportioning Valve[/SIZE]
The proportioning valve reduces the pressure to the rear brakes. Regardless of what type of brakes a car has, the rear brakes require less force than the front brakes.
The amount of brake force that can be applied to a wheel without locking it depends on the amount of weight on the wheel. More weight means more brake force can be applied. If you have ever slammed on your brakes, you know that an abrupt stop makes your car lean forward. The front gets lower and the back gets higher. This is because a lot of weight is transferred to the front of the car when you stop. Also, most cars have more weight over the front wheels to start with because that is where the engine is located. If equal braking force were applied at all four wheels during a stop, the rear wheels would lock up before the front wheels. The proportioning valve only lets a certain portion of the pressure through to the rear wheels so that the front wheels apply more braking force. If the proportioning valve were set to 70 percent and the brake pressure were 1,000 pounds per square inch (psi) for the front brakes, the rear brakes would get 700 psi.

Anti-Lock Brakes:
Stopping a car in a hurry on a slippery road can be very challenging. Anti-lock braking systems (ABS) take a lot of the challenge out of this sometimes nerve-wracking event. In fact, on slippery surfaces, even professional drivers can't stop as quickly without ABS as an average driver can with ABS.

anti-lock-brake1.jpg



Getting the ABS Concept
The theory behind anti-lock brakes is simple. A skidding wheel (where the tire contact patch is sliding relative to the road) has less traction than a non-skidding wheel. If you have been stuck on ice, you know that if your wheels are spinning you have no traction. This is because the contact patch is sliding relative to the ice (see Brakes: How Friction Works for more). By keeping the wheels from skidding while you slow down, anti-lock brakes benefit you in two ways: You'll stop faster, and you'll be able to steer while you stop.
There are four main components to an ABS system:
  • Speed sensors
  • Pump
  • Valves
  • Controller
Speed Sensors
The anti-lock braking system needs some way of knowing when a wheel is about to lock up. The speed sensors, which are located at each wheel, or in some cases in the differential, provide this information.
Valves
There is a valve in the brake line of each brake controlled by the ABS. On some systems, the valve has three positions:
  • In position one, the valve is open; pressure from the master cylinder is passed right through to the brake.
  • In position two, the valve blocks the line, isolating that brake from the master cylinder. This prevents the pressure from rising further should the driver push the brake pedal harder.
  • In position three, the valve releases some of the pressure from the brake.
Pump
Since the valve is able to release pressure from the brakes, there has to be some way to put that pressure back. That is what the pump does; when a valve reduces the pressure in a line, the pump is there to get the pressure back up.
Controller
The controller is a computer in the car. It watches the speed sensors and controls the valves.
ABS at Work
There are many different variations and control algorithms for ABS systems. We will discuss how one of the simpler systems works.
The controller monitors the speed sensors at all times. It is looking for decelerations in the wheel that are out of the ordinary. Right before a wheel locks up, it will experience a rapid deceleration. If left unchecked, the wheel would stop much more quickly than any car could. It might take a car five seconds to stop from 60 mph (96.6 kph) under ideal conditions, but a wheel that locks up could stop spinning in less than a second.
The ABS controller knows that such a rapid deceleration is impossible, so it reduces the pressure to that brake until it sees an acceleration, then it increases the pressure until it sees the deceleration again. It can do this very quickly, before the tire can actually significantly change speed. The result is that the tire slows down at the same rate as the car, with the brakes keeping the tires very near the point at which they will start to lock up. This gives the system maximum braking power.
When the ABS system is in operation you will feel a pulsing in the brake pedal; this comes from the rapid opening and closing of the valves. Some ABS systems can cycle up to 15 times per second.
Types of Anti-Lock Brakes
Anti-lock braking systems use different schemes depending on the type of brakes in use. We will refer to them by the number of channels -- that is, how many valves that are individually controlled -- and the number of speed sensors.
  • Four-channel, four-sensor ABS - This is the best scheme. There is a speed sensor on all four wheels and a separate valve for all four wheels. With this setup, the controller monitors each wheel individually to make sure it is achieving maximum braking force.
  • Three-channel, three-sensor ABS - This scheme, commonly found on pickup trucks with four-wheel ABS, has a speed sensor and a valve for each of the front wheels, with one valve and one sensor for both rear wheels. The speed sensor for the rear wheels is located in the rear axle.
    This system provides individual control of the front wheels, so they can both achieve maximum braking force. The rear wheels, however, are monitored together; they both have to start to lock up before the ABS will activate on the rear. With this system, it is possible that one of the rear wheels will lock during a stop, reducing brake effectiveness.
  • One-channel, one-sensor ABS - This system is commonly found on pickup trucks with rear-wheel ABS. It has one valve, which controls both rear wheels, and one speed sensor, located in the rear axle.
    This system operates the same as the rear end of a three-channel system. The rear wheels are monitored together and they both have to start to lock up before the ABS kicks in. In this system it is also possible that one of the rear wheels will lock, reducing brake effectiveness. This system is easy to identify. Usually there will be one brake line going through a T-fitting to both rear wheels. You can locate the speed sensor by looking for an electrical connection near the differential on the rear-axle housing.
ABS Questions
  • Should I pump the brake pedal when stopping in slippery conditions?
    You absolutely should not pump the brake pedal in a car with ABS. Pumping the brakes is a technique that is sometimes used in slippery conditions to allow the wheels to unlock so that the vehicle stays somewhat straight during a stop. In a car with ABS the wheels should never lock in the first place, so pumping the brakes will just make you take longer to stop.
    In an emergency stop in a car with ABS, you should apply the brake pedal firmly and hold it while the ABS does all the work. You will feel a pulsing in the pedal that may be quite violent, but this is normal so don't let off the brake.
  • Do anti-lock brakes really work?
    Anti-lock brakes really do help you stop better. They prevent wheels from locking up and provide the shortest stopping distance on slippery surfaces. But do they really prevent accidents? This is the true measure of the effectiveness of ABS systems.
    The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) has conducted several studies trying to determine if cars equipped with ABS are involved in more or fewer fatal accidents. It turns out that in a 1996 study, vehicles equipped with ABS were overall no less likely to be involved in fatal accidents than vehicles without. The study actually stated that although cars with ABS were less likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of other cars, they are more likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of the ABS car, especially single-vehicle accidents. There is much speculation about the reason for this. Some people think that drivers of ABS-equipped cars use the ABS incorrectly, either by pumping the brakes or by releasing the brakes when they feel the system pulsing. Some people think that since ABS allows you to steer during a panic stop, more people run off the road and crash.
 
So to get us on the same page, do we use the 3 channel set-up?
 
I also don't agree that bigger brakes give better braking. That's not true. IME, rarely do they give 'better' braking, maybe (if you are lucky) more consistent braking performance.
ST

I don't agree with this. Brake work on surface friction. 100 series Pads are larger and provide more surface are which in turn increases the friction.

Ken, It's a complicated subject, speaking to how a proportioning valve function changes in CDL on vs CDL off braking modes. It took me quite a while to explain the above in the terms I did.

That why I suggested you try explaining it a different way so everyone could follow you

I'm confused as to any comparison of the ABS function, if it's not Activated, it's not a variable. Proportioning valve operation is independent of ABS operation with CDL off. So, no impending lockup, ABS on or ABS off won't change the test or conclusions in post 1. Rephrased, they will behave the same. You can disable ABS if you want, I just don't see the need.

I am confused as to why you say disabling the ABS isn't warranted at all. Your test engages the CDL which disables ABS and locks the center diff. I was only suggesting disabling the ABS so that you have only one variable. If the ABS is enabled it will be a factor on the non CDL stopping test. Can't see how it would not be activated, at least thats not the way my truck works.


I'm not trying to be a hardass, just want to help bring all forum members reading this into the discussion. If you read this thread you will see some get it and some don't.
 
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So to get us on the same page, do we use the 3 channel set-up?

No. ABS in the 80> chassis has 4 wheel sensors, 1 for each wheel. Be careful on how you use the term though. 3 Channel ABS usually defines the number of channels coming out of the ABS box, not the number of sensors. For instance, the audis from 1986 through 1992 used 3 channel ABS with 4 sensors.

My 94 has 3 channel ABS with 4 sensors.

ST
 

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