Another 2013 head gasket goes kaput

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GrouchyTech said:
Edit: are the cams still installed in the towers?
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Yeah I threw them in there just to keep everything together and organized. They'll come out before I lay the towers down onto the heads.

Edit: I'm 100% sure everything is straight. The cams spin so free that depending on lobe position they'll rotate by themselves due to gravity.

Edit 2: It could be the position of the third dowel.. the two in the midline of the head are solid but the one closest to the valley is a partial sleeve, which means it has kindof "less-bent" metal toward the split. Those parts kindof spring outward. Tomorrow I'll try and pull that one out to see if the other two line up better.
 
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bloc said:
Given that.. you'd probably run them with the smaller rockers? Ultimately that's less friction, right? I did check the camshaft part numbers just to be sure there wasn't some difference in hardness treating and they appear to be the same.
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Yes, run the new small stuff. There is some efficiency there.
 
bloc said:
Funny you mention that.. I took these two specifically to compare.

Old,

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New,

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Yes it looks better, but the feel on your fingertip is the big giveaway.

The new head feels very, very smooth. Not quite to the level of glass, but maybe.. a nice stainless workbench? The old one is more approaching a high-grit sandpaper.

Ultimately I'm glad I sprung for the new parts.
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My head surface looked like the new Toyota heads.

carry on
 
bloc said:
It's really hard to judge due to the chamfered edge of the holes in the cam tower and the lighting I had available. I plan to mess around with different lighting and backgrounds tomorrow to get a better idea.

They seem pretty close, but like I said I don't want to go hammering on them just yet.
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Check the diameter of the dowel vs the hole, and get rid of any burrs on both. I would want to see the tower install with hand pressure or MAYBE a light mallet tap. You’ll have FIPG/silicone on there, so getting the tower located and placed on the head easily is important—especially with the engine still in the truck.
 
GrouchyTech said:
Check the diameter of the dowel vs the hole, and get rid of any burrs on both. I would want to see the tower install with hand pressure or MAYBE a light mallet tap. You’ll have FIPG/silicone on there, so getting the tower located and placed on the head easily is important—especially with the engine still in the truck.
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Verified dowel and hole diameter. If I rotated the cam tower around where only one dowel was engaged each slipped right in. Removed the spring dowel, no change.

With better lighting it seemed to be that the dowels in the head were very slightly further apart than the holes in the cam tower. Each of the dowels had a nice chamfer on the end, same for both of the holes, so I removed the cams and most of the caps, then used each of the bolts that goes through a dowel to pull the tower down. Very very little torque, used a nut driver. The one cam tower I tried it on pulled down.. I'd prefer that they just slipped on.. but this seems acceptable.

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I threw the cams in to see if the cam towers were warped to the point that they wouldn't spin free.. cams turned just like before.

There was a little friction getting the cam tower back off, and I was curious what it would have done to the holes in the tower.. looks like it took off just a miniscule amount of aluminum.

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Spent a little time doing things I could while I wait for the remaining exhaust valves.

Purged the lash adjusters, they'll live submerged in oil until I'm ready to throw them in. Thanks for the advice @GrouchyTech

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Dumped the new rockers into oil so their bearings will be saturated also by install time.

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Since I'm using the beehive springs I won't need all of these..

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Still in a holding pattern, decided to start installing the intake valves and work on my process for doing so. Make sure I didn't have any issues with the valve spring compressor.

I applied a lot of tape to the head sealing surface to reduce the risk of damaging it after all this trouble.

Also, don't sell good tools! I had a decently nice OTC valve spring compressor tool for years after rebuilding a flood-victim late 70's harley, but didn't think I'd need it and sold it used about a year ago. The cheap-o thing I got on amazon is getting the job done but the poor quality has me wondering if the upper valve spring hat will push through eventually. Also these tiny little valve keepers are quite fiddly.. a tool magnetizer and small flathead are really useful if you aren't going to spring on the quick-install tool for valve keepers.. wasn't quite worth the investment in this case.

@GrouchyTech typically how long is a tube of regular toyota FIPG good for once opened? Or do you use it often enough that it doesn't get a chance to harden? I'm holding off on the spark plug tubes because I don't want to waste a whole tube if this all sits for two weeks before the other valves show up. Which would turn into a month due to some travel I have planned in April.

Ultimately I got all of the intake valves installed and the two exhaust I had on-hand. Once the remaining valves show up I'll have the heads assembled in a couple hours and they'll be on the block shortly after.



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bloc said:
@GrouchyTech typically how long is a tube of regular toyota FIPG good for once opened? Or do you use it often enough that it doesn't get a chance to harden? I'm holding off on the spark plug tubes because I don't want to waste a whole tube if this all sits for two weeks before the other valves show up. Which would turn into a month due to some travel I have planned in April.

Ultimately I got all of the intake valves installed and the two exhaust I had on-hand. Once the remaining valves show up I'll have the heads assembled in a couple hours and they'll be on the block shortly after.
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You’ll be fine for two weeks with an opened tube. I would suggest you leave the tip on the tube and then cap it or plug it, that way it will cure inside the tip instead of inside the tube itself.

Squeeze just a bit out immediately before you cap it and I bet it is still fine when you pick it up again. If it ever cures inside the tip, just unscrew it and push the solidified plug out.
 
GrouchyTech said:
You’ll be fine for two weeks with an opened tube. I would suggest you leave the tip on the tube and then cap it or plug it, that way it will cure inside the tip instead of inside the tube itself.

Squeeze just a bit out immediately before you cap it and I bet it is still fine when you pick it up again. If it ever cures inside the tip, just unscrew it and push the solidified plug out.
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Thanks man
 
GrouchyTech said:
You’ll be fine for two weeks with an opened tube. I would suggest you leave the tip on the tube and then cap it or plug it, that way it will cure inside the tip instead of inside the tube itself.

Squeeze just a bit out immediately before you cap it and I bet it is still fine when you pick it up again. If it ever cures inside the tip, just unscrew it and push the solidified plug out.
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Check these out:


I have used these with RTV and all sorts of caulk and they work great.
 
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I'll be the devils advocate here: As much as we all don't like the texture and finish of the machined original heads, I'm crazy enough to think they'll work and seal for a long time...am I the only one?

I've seen much worse on motorcycle engines, that keep on going. Open to being wrong here.
 
CanadianRockyCruiser said:
I'll be the devils advocate here: As much as we all don't like the texture and finish of the machined original heads, I'm crazy enough to think they'll work and seal for a long time...am I the only one?

I've seen much worse on motorcycle engines, that keep on going. Open to being wrong here.
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I was open to that possibility but considering the sheer amount of time and effort to get in there and address it if it didn’t work, and the reality that I put a lot of miles on this rig very far from home, I considered the cost (on sale!) for new heads worth avoiding the risk.

Plus on one of the heads the texture isn’t even consistent across the whole head surface. To me that says I can’t trust larger aspects of the job they did or machinery they used.

A question concerning those motorcycle heads.. what type of head gasket was used? From my research modern MLS gaskets, and especially the types used by OEMs intended for new-build sealing surfaces, are especially sensitive to surface texture. Moreso than aftermarket MLS gaskets let alone the graphite or composite stuff used on older engine types. I’m certain this texture would have been fine for that Harley I mentioned, as an example.
 
bloc said:
I was open to that possibility but considering the sheer amount of time and effort to get in there and address it if it didn’t work, and the reality that I put a lot of miles on this rig very far from home, I considered the cost (on sale!) for new heads worth avoiding the risk.

Plus on one of the heads the texture isn’t even consistent across the whole head surface. To me that says I can’t trust larger aspects of the job they did or machinery they used.

A question concerning those motorcycle heads.. what type of head gasket was used? From my research modern MLS gaskets, and especially the types used by OEMs intended for new-build sealing surfaces, are especially sensitive to surface texture. Moreso than aftermarket MLS gaskets let alone the graphite or composite stuff used on older engine types. I’m certain this texture would have been fine for that Harley I mentioned, as an example.
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Fair to say that I haven't examined the heads in person (and you have). I trust you've made a call that will keep your engine running far into the future. I appreciate you sharing your journey too.
 
Finally, something is going ahead of schedule.. technically by one day.

Bell Lexus just emailed with tracking info for the remaining exhaust valves! I’m anticipating getting the heads built early next week.

We’ll see what can happen before then.. new fault line opening between Texas and Arizona maybe?
 
There had to be something..

I'll post more with the valves and built heads but I ran into a snag. Went to install the passenger side head and it appears the ARP head studs are too short. The top row of holes is fine, but all of the lowers look like this:

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Comparing one of them on the bench to the stock used head bolts

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My tools are picked up so I'll have to wait til tomorrow to measure where the threads start in the block. I would lean toward backing them out just enough to get the nut to engage.. I'm reading online that 2.5x thread diameter is minimum depth into aluminum, but that isn't official at all.. ARP is explicit on their site about run the stud to the bottom of the hole.. though the context there seems to be preventing one or two being truly too shallow due to unacceptable thread/hole condition.

This all happened about 5 minutes after ARP's close of business. I'll see what they say tomorrow. @bjowett had been working on a longer arp stud option but frankly if this isn't fixable by backing out a few turns I'll just run stock head bolts. Sucks to shell out the money for these and them not work though.

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