Another 2013 head gasket goes kaput

[bloc]

HEADS HAVE LANDED! And they survived the trip.

I was surprised to find they included new valve springs and retainers. I immediately thought the retainers looked much smaller than the originals, so I dug those out to compare. Then the new springs... these are tapered at the top. Plus the rollers on the rockers are narrower than the originals.

At this point I'm leaning toward using the new part number valve springs I ordered (with the purple marks.) The rollers on the original rockers are wear-free, and in my head a wider contact point seems better for long-term wear. Plus I've kept track of everything's location so the rockers can all go back to the same cam lobe they were riding on before.

I'm open to arguments the other way though.. let me hear them. Yes I know the valvetrain would be lower mass, but I don't see myself upping the rev limiter on this thing..

Also, per the manual the new spark plug tubes are supposed to be "pre-coated".. these aren't. I assume careful FIPG placement before driving them in?

Exhaust is on the left, intake on the right in your photo. The “bronze-ish” color of the metal portion indicates the intake seal.

Agree with @GrouchyTech

Thanks guys.

 

[bjowett]

Since you asked… From what I remember (I had to do a super quick refresh, so don’t take this as gospel), bee hive springs and retainers are not only lighter, the tapered end shape deals with any resonance that may be present in the valve train much more effectively. The springs could (?) very well be of lighter rate, and one would think sure, less mass needs less spring rate to control, but that’s not the whole story. They deal with the harmonics that would require a conventional spring to be heavier than would be ideal for the application. I believe (?) this also, to some extent, allows the smaller rockers/followers and everything else to be lighter w/o hurting durability. At least, in theory that is. Can we say that’s the case here? Not w/o more research… though it would seem likely.

 

[GrouchyTech]

I’ve been meaning to remind you to prime your hydraulic valve lifters (“adjusters”) before installing them. When they’re dry, especially when new, it can take a while for them to pump up. This leaves so much play that a rocker/follower can very easily jump off a lifter (only the valve-cam-lifter points of contact keep the rocker in place.

Sometimes the rocker just plops down and there is no damage and it’s not a big deal except for more work and time to get back in there and reinstall it. And sometimes it jumps into the mosh pit.

Take the rocker and find a tiny roll pin punch or Allen key, tack, paper clip, etc, that fits into the hole on the domed end of the rocker and can depress the plunger spring inside. Submerge the whole rocker in a shallow tray of fresh motor oil and while it’s under there press the plunger 5-6 times and install.

 

[GrouchyTech]

Also, per the manual the new spark plug tubes are supposed to be "pre-coated".. these aren't. I assume careful FIPG placement before driving them in?

View attachment 4100760

On some of the engine types the tubes are threaded into the head, but I don’t remember if the 3UR is or not. A thin bit of FIPG/RTV and tap it in with a block of hardwood. If you can find a socket that will fit into the bore *without getting stuck* you can use that to keep it from denting if/when you smack the tube. Remember, you’ll get eight chances!

 

[bloc]

Since you asked… From what I remember (I had to do a super quick refresh, so don’t take this as gospel), bee hive springs and retainers are not only lighter, the tapered end shape deals with any resonance that may be present in the valve train much more effectively. The springs could (?) very well be of lighter rate, and one would think sure, less mass needs less spring rate to control, but that’s not the whole story. They deal with the harmonics that would require a conventional spring to be heavier than would be ideal for the application. I believe (?) this also, to some extent, allows the smaller rockers/followers and everything else to be lighter w/o hurting durability. At least, in theory that is. Can we say that’s the case here? Not w/o more research… though it would seem likely.

Very interesting.. also makes me wonder if this change has anything to do with the valve spring issues that occasionally pop up on these and a couple other Toyota engines?

Given what I’m presented with, do you think you’d run the new stuff? And do you find it odd that new heads aren’t supposed to come with valve springs and rockers but these did?

I’ve been meaning to remind you to prime your hydraulic valve lifters (“adjusters”) before installing them. When they’re dry, especially when new, it can take a while for them to pump up. This leaves so much play that a rocker/follower can very easily jump off a lifter (only the valve-cam-lifter points of contact keep the rocker in place.

Sometimes the rocker just plops down and there is no damage and it’s not a big deal except for more work and time to get back in there and reinstall it. And sometimes it jumps into the mosh pit.

Take the rocker and find a tiny roll pin punch or Allen key, tack, paper clip, etc, that fits into the hole on the domed end of the rocker and can depress the plunger spring inside. Submerge the whole rocker in a shallow tray of fresh motor oil and while it’s under there press the plunger 5-6 times and install.

On some of the engine types the tubes are threaded into the head, but I don’t remember if the 3UR is or not. A thin bit of FIPG/RTV and tap it in with a block of hardwood. If you can find a socket that will fit into the bore *without getting stuck* you can use that to keep it from denting if/when you smack the tube. Remember, you’ll get eight chances!

Beat me to asking about the lifters.

Thanks for the advice

 

[bjowett]

Tough call, the performance geek in me would want to run the bee hive springs and lighter parts…. though I’d really like to see the numbers to know if the spring rate is lighter.

 

[bloc]

Tough call, the performance geek in me would want to run the bee hive springs and lighter parts…. though I’d really like to see the numbers to know if the spring rate is lighter.

I can probably come up with a way to tell if they are lower rate.. depending on how significant of a difference it might be.

Are we talking 5% or something larger like 20?

 

[bloc]

West coast inventory was wrong. They were 8 short. Now being told march 20-31st.

Maybe the truck will be ready for my July trip?

 

[bjowett]

I can probably come up with a way to tell if they are lower rate.. depending on how significant of a difference it might be.

Are we talking 5% or something larger like 20?

Unknown on how much lighter it would be. I have an old valve spring rate tester, but it’s packed away and could take days to locate… and I have no springs here to test. I wonder which year Toyota switched the 3UR to the lighter parts?

There is another exhaust valve available, part # 13715-31150 it’s used in the 1UR-FSE V8 (amongst a bunch of the V6 engines) that comes in the LS 460.

 

[bloc]

Unknown on how much lighter it would be. I have an old valve spring rate tester, but it’s packed away and could take days to locate… and I have no springs here to test. I wonder which year Toyota switched the 3UR to the lighter parts?

There is another exhaust valve available, part # 13715-31150 it’s used in the 1UR-FSE V8 (amongst a bunch of the V6 engines) that comes in the LS 460.

2016 200-series shows two different valve spring, retainer, and rocker part numbers. No date delineation, just a picture of the rockers with the wider one being type A, narrow type B. Springs and retainers also type A and B. I can't find pictures of the later valve spring to confirm beehive shape, but the retainers sure look smaller in the pics I can find. After 16 the diagrams only show the type B numbers.

Interesting there are so many exhaust valves that will fit.. any idea what the difference is with this one?

Either way, I'm committed to the IS-F parts.

 

[bjowett]

No real idea on the difference… I thought it might be a slightly higher spec valve to deal with the increased exhaust temps of the direct injection engines, but they also use them in regular 2GR FE V6 engines. So?

 

[bjowett]

Since you are committed to the IS F parts, take a look at the titanium intake valves 13711-38050

 

[bloc]

Since you are committed to the IS F parts, take a look at the titanium intake valves 13711-38050

Those are surprisingly cheap! If I hadn't already received a full set of the standard valves I'd strongly consider those.

I rigged up something to compare valve spring rate, controlling as many variables as possible. (mass, fulcrum, spring, measuring screw positions) While I'm friendly with the staff at my gym asking to borrow one of their 100# dumbbells would be a bit much.. this is what I could scrounge up.

45#, with my estimate of center of mass about 89% of the way to the spring. So we can assume ~40# or 18.2kg. On the straight spring this resulted in 10.6mm of compression.

The beehive spring compressed 1.33mm more. Not much, but over 10%.

This is far from scientific, and while we could do the math to ballpark the actual rates, I wouldn't trust them very much. But such a significant difference to me seems like enough evidence to say they are lower rate.

Given that.. you'd probably run them with the smaller rockers? Ultimately that's less friction, right? I did check the camshaft part numbers just to be sure there wasn't some difference in hardness treating and they appear to be the same.

 

[bloc]

More head porn.

One of the new heads. I'll have to install all of the studs that are on my old ones.. The water pipe ones being backordered so those will get moved over. I have new exhaust mani studs to go in though.

These things are beautiful.

 

[bloc]

One odd thing though.. the cam towers won't just sit right down onto their dowel sleeves. They do on the old heads.

If I get one sleeve to seat the ones on the far side of the head won't. I can't quite see whether the issue is being too short or too long, and I don't have a good way to measure such a span precisely. I tried some taps with the palm of my hand but didn't want to go crazy. I'm pretty sure they'll pull down cleanly once I get the bolts in, but this did seem a little strange.

Same small glitch on both heads, for the record.

Ever seen this @GrouchyTech @bjowett or anyone that has done extensive work on cam-tower toyotas?

Edit: I will investigate further how far things are off before I go trying to run them down with bolts.. just gotta think through the best way to get light in there so I can judge it.

 

[bloc]

Since I have two of the IS-F exhaust valves and all of my intake valves I got a couple pics of the mockup and to compare. The two on the left are the stainless ISF exhaust ones. Right two are standard 3UR intake valves, brand new.

I'll probably mic out the old valves and compare to new just to get an idea of how worn my originals were.

 

[Battleship]

The photos make it look like the mating surface is orders of magnitude better than what you got back from the machine shop.

 

[GrouchyTech]

How far off is the dowel alignment? Are we talking thousandths or is it enough to be visible to your eye?

Edit: are the cams still installed in the towers?

 

[bloc]

How far off is the dowel alignment? Are we talking thousandths or is it enough to be visible to your eye?

It's really hard to judge due to the chamfered edge of the holes in the cam tower and the lighting I had available. I plan to mess around with different lighting and backgrounds tomorrow to get a better idea.

They seem pretty close, but like I said I don't want to go hammering on them just yet.

 

[bloc]

The photos make it look like the mating surface is orders of magnitude better than what you got back from the machine shop.

Funny you mention that.. I took these two specifically to compare.

Old,

New,

Yes it looks better, but the feel on your fingertip is the big giveaway.

The new head feels very, very smooth. Not quite to the level of glass, but maybe.. a nice stainless workbench? The old one is more approaching a high-grit sandpaper.

Ultimately I'm glad I sprung for the new parts.