Do you have the correct double-hex socket for the factory bolts? Some people will use a triple square by mistake which CAN be successful but… often it’s not.
Another 2013 head gasket goes kaput
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- #182
I was thinking my triple squares seemed like they weren't fitting correctly.. thanks for that.
Yeah, they will “work,” but you can pick up a double hex on Amazon for 10 bucks I bet. It will work fine and won’t booger up your new bolts.
Edit: voilà https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BHJPPT8?tag=ihco-20
Well damn. Sorry about the mislead on the arp studs.
Interesting they don’t work.
Also I don’t remember any of my head bolts being a different length on my 5.7 head gaskets. Best i remember I they were all the same
Interesting they don’t work.
Also I don’t remember any of my head bolts being a different length on my 5.7 head gaskets. Best i remember I they were all the same
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- #185
Should have a pair showing up tomorrow. If I use toyota bolts it'll be tomorrow or the day after.
No worries.. it was a good idea. Only now that I dig around online do I see a number of situations where their hardware isn't the correct length.
I verified toyota uses the same PN for both locations, so this seems to be totally on ARP. We'll see what they say tomorrow.
Are we even certain that it’s a clamping force issue and not a pre 2014 head gasket material issue? Stock head bolts are probably fine with the revised gasket.
Was the gasket changed? 2014? So 2014 got new Headgasket and new valve springs?
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- #188
The ARPs weren’t really an attempt to prevent HG failure. More that they are reusable if I do have problems and they are probably “better”.
I know, ironic.
Gasket changed in 14, though some 2014s have failed. So maybe it wasn’t early in the year?
Springs and associated hardware changed in 2016.
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- #189
According to a conversation with ARP technical support, aluminum blocks need 2-2.5x thread diameter of engagement. I will post my measurements and logic here and see if anyone can blow holes in it. Basically, even when backing out the studs some they should work fine. Still not sure how I feel about that.
As a note the holes in the block are the same top and bottom, the difference is the head is thicker at the bottom.
Total stud length 152mm
Nut 13mm
Washer 3mm
Head (bottom, thicker portion) 67mm
Head gasket .8mm (calling this 1mm)
Blank space in block before threads start 35mm
Per my logic to determine thread engagement while having the nut end up flush with the top of the stud, we'd take total stud length and subtract everything from the top of the stud to the top of the threads in the block.
152 - 13 - 3 - 67 - 1 - 35 = 33mm engagement.
The studs measure just under 11mm at the block threads, so this would seem to mean I have 3x diameter thread engagement.. which per ARP should be more than enough.
I have to admit I still don't feel great about this.
The guy I spoke with said he hadn't heard of this issue before on this platform.. but there are a number of techs. He also said I could just remove the washer under the nut.. which I consider suspect, given how anal retentive ARP seems in *all* of their literature about the friction condition of the surface below the nut. On top of him stating that I technically don't need full thread engagement of the nut onto the stud.. my response "how much?" him: "hard to say".
Since I got the stud kit from ebay ARP won't issue a refund. I can get factory bolts locally today but it would be another $200 or so out of pocket.
All of this seems to come down to do I want to pay $200 because I don't trust ARP's "2-2.5x" advice?
I'm going to recheck all my measurements since I have some time..
Open to anyone's thoughts on this. Especially @bjowett with your experience building 3UR's
(edit: I'll also mock up one stud/nut/etc into the block and measure again)
As a note the holes in the block are the same top and bottom, the difference is the head is thicker at the bottom.
Total stud length 152mm
Nut 13mm
Washer 3mm
Head (bottom, thicker portion) 67mm
Head gasket .8mm (calling this 1mm)
Blank space in block before threads start 35mm
Per my logic to determine thread engagement while having the nut end up flush with the top of the stud, we'd take total stud length and subtract everything from the top of the stud to the top of the threads in the block.
152 - 13 - 3 - 67 - 1 - 35 = 33mm engagement.
The studs measure just under 11mm at the block threads, so this would seem to mean I have 3x diameter thread engagement.. which per ARP should be more than enough.
I have to admit I still don't feel great about this.
The guy I spoke with said he hadn't heard of this issue before on this platform.. but there are a number of techs. He also said I could just remove the washer under the nut.. which I consider suspect, given how anal retentive ARP seems in *all* of their literature about the friction condition of the surface below the nut. On top of him stating that I technically don't need full thread engagement of the nut onto the stud.. my response "how much?" him: "hard to say".
Since I got the stud kit from ebay ARP won't issue a refund. I can get factory bolts locally today but it would be another $200 or so out of pocket.
All of this seems to come down to do I want to pay $200 because I don't trust ARP's "2-2.5x" advice?
I'm going to recheck all my measurements since I have some time..
Open to anyone's thoughts on this. Especially @bjowett with your experience building 3UR's
(edit: I'll also mock up one stud/nut/etc into the block and measure again)
My vote is stock head bolts and not having to worry about so many variables of getting the stud engagement just right with ARP studs.
Are you really going to be opening up this engine again with the (hopefully fixed) revised gasket from Toyota?
You would be at 450k miles on your cruiser even with the old non-revised head gasket if history repeats itself.
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- #191
But now I can't use the ARP sticker?
Kidding. Thanks for the perspective. I'll go grab the bolts from the dealer.
This. It would be constantly nagging me.
With IS-F valves, I think he can go full F, don't settle for the F-Sport.You can still use the F-Sport badge due to having the “premium” valves.
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- #194
You ruined the surprise!
The engine will likely be fine backing them out a smidge. With that said, I prefer overdone. This is certainly something to watch for with other ARP fasteners.
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- #196
At long last..
This head is torqued. amazn got me a Mayhew tools twin-hex tool. Not the cheapest but seems like a high quality set and I got it very quickly. Much better fit than the triple square... I should have picked up on that.
Cam tower in the morning, then a neighbor will come by to help me get the exhaust lined up while I install the driver's side head with the manifold already on it.
This head is torqued. amazn got me a Mayhew tools twin-hex tool. Not the cheapest but seems like a high quality set and I got it very quickly. Much better fit than the triple square... I should have picked up on that.
Cam tower in the morning, then a neighbor will come by to help me get the exhaust lined up while I install the driver's side head with the manifold already on it.
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- #197
A little more about the studs in case the info can help someone in the future.
I figured all of this would be a lot easier to understand with some pictures.
Here is the stud screwed into the block as far as they say with the nut and washer installed flush with the end. Sorry the pictures are formatted different.. I retook some of these but not all.
This shows approx 64mm between the washer and deck, when we need 67mm for the head and 1mm for the gasket.
I backed the assembly out until I had around 68mm, seen here.
So moving the stud out ~4mm gets us the room we need.
This is the threaded section of the stud
So say we back it out 4mm, that leaves 32.. which is 2.9x the diameter of engagement.
So even when mocked up, per ARP's tech support, it should have been fine.
Even with plenty of experience on german cars it still feels weird to tighten a head bolt until it stretches.
I figured all of this would be a lot easier to understand with some pictures.
Here is the stud screwed into the block as far as they say with the nut and washer installed flush with the end. Sorry the pictures are formatted different.. I retook some of these but not all.
This shows approx 64mm between the washer and deck, when we need 67mm for the head and 1mm for the gasket.
I backed the assembly out until I had around 68mm, seen here.
So moving the stud out ~4mm gets us the room we need.
This is the threaded section of the stud
So say we back it out 4mm, that leaves 32.. which is 2.9x the diameter of engagement.
So even when mocked up, per ARP's tech support, it should have been fine.
Even with plenty of experience on german cars it still feels weird to tighten a head bolt until it stretches.
Agreed. In 50 years, I still have not gotten used to the concept, but research does show that torque to yield does provide a superior and more consistent clamping force, especially on aluminum engines. Seems to compensate for different rates of thermal expansion better.
Of all things, the rear caliper mounting bolts on the VW GTI are torque to yield.
I would feel pretty confident with 32mm thread engagement.
That said, I cringe from the creaking noise of that final 90° turn every time I torque one down. God, I hate it so much.
A few days ago, when you and I were talking about the two different lengths of head bolts, I was thinking of the the 2GR. They’re very similar in length, but not the same. You see, if you are in a hurry and you put the long bolt where the short bolt is supposed to be, somewhere during that final 45° you will hear “POP!” which is your cue to swear a whole bunch and head home four hours early.
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- #200
At least the engine didn't fall out of the car?
(Happened to a number of diesel VW models when dealer techs wouldn't keep track of which motor mount stretch bolts were new vs used on timing belt jobs)