An ethical dilemma? (1 Viewer)

[fj83landcruiser]

Here is my final response to this firestorm
I sold JM this truck 8-9 months ago. I worked with JM over email on how he wanted this 78 FJ40 to be completed. I included several extras for free, JM and I had an excellent experience before/during/after the sale until JM took this vehicle to Jim Chenoweth of TLC Performance for a carburetor tune-up. The purchase price on this truck was low 30k range after the add-ons. Jim C claims the vehicle needs thousands in upgrades. I’ve never spoke to Jim C, but he felt the need to be an internet hero and bash me on this forum. Jim C is getting paid to work on this 78 FJ40 FACT Jim is generating business for himself at my expense FACT. Jim is important in this web forum, I am not, his friends are also quick to bash me. Popularity in a clicky web forum is not the real world. Jim C and pals have posted threats to my family, myself, and my business. Of course I’m doing something about it. If my previous responses seem angry, well they are. I think this web forum was meant to be fun and helpful, not a breeding ground for hate. The posts are obviously in violation regarding the user terms. I’ve been restoring Land Cruisers as a hobby for years, full time for just a few years. Everyone can see my eBay feedback fj40man79, there are many more as seen in all the photobucket , facebook and old myspace pictures. I’ve done a couple thousand transactions regarding Land Cruisers and parts in person and over the net. I’m happy with the 98% of people who satisfied, the other 2% well, unfortunately, anyone that has run a small business knows it is impossible to please everyone. Pictures of this 78 are on this thread, pictures regarding the rest of my work are displayed for public view. Fixing carburetors in a tool shed does not make Jim C the most knowledgeable Land Cruiser mechanic in the world, yes the real world, not the web forum hate fest. I do concede a lesson from this drama, but I can’t think of any way this could have been rectified as the actual owner was happy with the purchase. The owner is an intelligent guy, I’m sure he would have bought the vehicle if he did see it in person, but I’m disappointed for the owner and how this drama has spiraled out of control. I’m courteous enough to not post the actual owner’s name, I see Jim C has no regard for his customer’s privacy. The jumping to conclusions in this thread are a real testament to the mob mentality, it is pathetic. I’ve been called every name in the book on here from people I’ve never done business with, met, or even spoke to. Really Really Sad. http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/... Completed Dec 11/78FJ40CompleteMonast002.jpg link to the actual vehicle in question. I could discount each item Jim C makes issue of like the AC belt being too thin. Well that is the part # Vintage Air AC says to use. Really a waste of time to even respond on here or attempt to defend myself, I’m obviously being encouraged to continue the drama by responding, this is my final say, make up your own mind. I’m done with the responses, but the action I’m taking is far from done.

 

[semlin]

that is an impressive amount of words to use to say absolutely nothing about the problems jim has documented with your vehicle or in response to any of the reasonable questions people have posed here.

i am sure people will weigh all your words and decide for themselves what they are worth.

 

[Coolstream]

Here is my final response to this firestorm
I sold JM this truck 8-9 months ago. I worked with JM over email on how he wanted this 78 FJ40 to be completed. I included several extras for free, JM and I had an excellent experience before/during/after the sale until JM took this vehicle to Jim Chenoweth of TLC Performance for a carburetor tune-up. The purchase price on this truck was low 30k range after the add-ons. Jim C claims the vehicle needs thousands in upgrades. I’ve never spoke to Jim C, but he felt the need to be an internet hero and bash me on this forum. Jim C is getting paid to work on this 78 FJ40 FACT Jim is generating business for himself at my expense FACT. Jim is important in this web forum, I am not, his friends are also quick to bash me. Popularity in a clicky web forum is not the real world. Jim C and pals have posted threats to my family, myself, and my business. Of course I’m doing something about it. If my previous responses seem angry, well they are. I think this web forum was meant to be fun and helpful, not a breeding ground for hate. The posts are obviously in violation regarding the user terms. I’ve been restoring Land Cruisers as a hobby for years, full time for just a few years. Everyone can see my eBay feedback fj40man79, there are many more as seen in all the photobucket , facebook and old myspace pictures. I’ve done a couple thousand transactions regarding Land Cruisers and parts in person and over the net. I’m happy with the 98% of people who satisfied, the other 2% well, unfortunately, anyone that has run a small business knows it is impossible to please everyone. Pictures of this 78 are on this thread, pictures regarding the rest of my work are displayed for public view. Fixing carburetors in a tool shed does not make Jim C the most knowledgeable Land Cruiser mechanic in the world, yes the real world, not the web forum hate fest. I do concede a lesson from this drama, but I can’t think of any way this could have been rectified as the actual owner was happy with the purchase. The owner is an intelligent guy, I’m sure he would have bought the vehicle if he did see it in person, but I’m disappointed for the owner and how this drama has spiraled out of control. I’m courteous enough to not post the actual owner’s name, I see Jim C has no regard for his customer’s privacy. The jumping to conclusions in this thread are a real testament to the mob mentality, it is pathetic. I’ve been called every name in the book on here from people I’ve never done business with, met, or even spoke to. Really Really Sad. http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/... Completed Dec 11/78FJ40CompleteMonast002.jpg link to the actual vehicle in question. I could discount each item Jim C makes issue of like the AC belt being too thin. Well that is the part # Vintage Air AC says to use. Really a waste of time to even respond on here or attempt to defend myself, I’m obviously being encouraged to continue the drama by responding, this is my final say, make up your own mind. I’m done with the responses, but the action I’m taking is far from done.

Just a couple comments from someone who has no "dog in the hunt".

Wouldn't a better approach have been to simply ask what you can do to make the situation right for your customer?

I don't know Jim C from Adam, but reading his posts in this thread and others, you can tell he knows what he's talking about. Obviously, he has a great many supporters on this forum, so to come on here and bash him doesn't seem like a way to win friends and influence people.

You say you can discount every item that Jim C has found, yet you've never addressed the "rebuild" of the transmission, among other things. If you are unable to explain why the transmission looks the way it does, you've instantly lost credibility.

You seem to think that by attacking a person, rather than addressing the problem(s), you'll somehow look better. Sorry, no.

If the owner was so happy with the purchase and the vehicle was so awesome, why did he need to take it to Jim C in the first place?

There's more, but I think you get the idea.

 

[John Smith]

http://s953.photobucket.com/albums/ae11/fj40man79/78 FJ40 Completed Dec 11/

make sure to get the pics on your quote Rob

For 30k you don't replace the shifter knob with a new one that contains the shift pattern? Please tell us why you coated the freshly rebuilt transmission and transfer case in the layer of crud in the picture Jim posted up.

 

[crushers]

deleted

 

[Mattnatti]

" clicky web forum " ? Really?

It is a community of enthusiast. For someone who has been " restoring " LC for many years you haven't contributed one bit other than posting your for sale threads. For the greater majority of members here LC are a way of life. For you they appear to be a way of cash.

 

[crushers]

The jumping to conclusions in this thread are a real testament to the mob mentality, it is pathetic.
I’m done with the responses...

no, sir, what is pathetic is you putting forth the idea that a leopard can actually change it's spots
or
in this case, a crook change his established pattern

<working out of a shed does not make a person less credible or less capable, most crooks i have met hide behind a license.>

i do appreciate you bringing this thread back to the front page though

 

[Trollhole]

I'd put Jim in the top five people here that know their s***. And considering there are tens of thousands of people on here being in the top 5 is as good as it gets. Also in all my years of being on mud I've never seen him publicly out a person. So for him to do that means to me he must have had a damn good reason and it didn't have anything to do with him making money.

 

[Zack1978]

Here is my final response to this firestorm
I sold JM this truck 8-9 months ago. I worked with JM over email on how he wanted this 78 FJ40 to be completed. I included several extras for free, JM and I had an excellent experience before/during/after the sale until JM took this vehicle to Jim Chenoweth of TLC Performance for a carburetor tune-up. The purchase price on this truck was low 30k range after the add-ons. Jim C claims the vehicle needs thousands in upgrades. I’ve never spoke to Jim C, but he felt the need to be an internet hero and bash me on this forum. Jim C is getting paid to work on this 78 FJ40 FACT Jim is generating business for himself at my expense FACT. Jim is important in this web forum, I am not, his friends are also quick to bash me. Popularity in a clicky web forum is not the real world. Jim C and pals have posted threats to my family, myself, and my business. Of course I’m doing something about it. If my previous responses seem angry, well they are. I think this web forum was meant to be fun and helpful, not a breeding ground for hate. The posts are obviously in violation regarding the user terms. I’ve been restoring Land Cruisers as a hobby for years, full time for just a few years. Everyone can see my eBay feedback fj40man79, there are many more as seen in all the photobucket , facebook and old myspace pictures. I’ve done a couple thousand transactions regarding Land Cruisers and parts in person and over the net. I’m happy with the 98% of people who satisfied, the other 2% well, unfortunately, anyone that has run a small business knows it is impossible to please everyone. Pictures of this 78 are on this thread, pictures regarding the rest of my work are displayed for public view. Fixing carburetors in a tool shed does not make Jim C the most knowledgeable Land Cruiser mechanic in the world, yes the real world, not the web forum hate fest. I do concede a lesson from this drama, but I can’t think of any way this could have been rectified as the actual owner was happy with the purchase. The owner is an intelligent guy, I’m sure he would have bought the vehicle if he did see it in person, but I’m disappointed for the owner and how this drama has spiraled out of control. I’m courteous enough to not post the actual owner’s name, I see Jim C has no regard for his customer’s privacy. The jumping to conclusions in this thread are a real testament to the mob mentality, it is pathetic. I’ve been called every name in the book on here from people I’ve never done business with, met, or even spoke to. Really Really Sad. http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/... Completed Dec 11/78FJ40CompleteMonast002.jpg link to the actual vehicle in question. I could discount each item Jim C makes issue of like the AC belt being too thin. Well that is the part # Vintage Air AC says to use. Really a waste of time to even respond on here or attempt to defend myself, I’m obviously being encouraged to continue the drama by responding, this is my final say, make up your own mind. I’m done with the responses, but the action I’m taking is far from done.

What a total idiot! So what about that "rebuilt" trans? Or the black paint over the oil build up on the motor?

Oh and do you know what a paragraph is?


Zack

 

[FJ40Jim]

Oh and do you know what a paragraph is?

Who do you think you are, a school teacher?

 

[Zack1978]

Who do you think you are, a school teacher?

lol....

 

[nuclearlemon]

Who do you think you are, a school teacher?

i'm not...but i've played one in the past

 

[Spike Strip]

To the seller:

I can tell you this without the slightest reservation: If I had paid $34,000 for that truck and it had even half the misrepresentations already documented by one of the most respected members of this forum, I'd spend another $10,000 in air, legal, and hotel costs just to see you in court and have you explain yourself in front of a Judge... Before I got my money back

And not to be too pedantic, but is this the problem with your keyboard?

 

[re_guderian]

Jim Chenowith's Land Cruiser reputation pre-dates IH8MUD (this "clique-y" forum) by a LONG time. Many of us KNOW his work not only by reputation, but by experience. He rebuilt a carb for my FJ60 years and years ago. You, on the other hand...

and man, this guy has more "farewell tours" than The Who...

Let us know when the Jim C legal defense fund is needed.

 

[Trapper50cal]

What a joke...


"Here is my final response to this firestorm..."

-Your 3rd final response? Your 4th?

"Jim C claims the vehicle needs thousands in upgrades."

-No, he claims nothing like that, he claims that there are REPAIRS that need to take place and he has been documenting the shoddy and misleading claims YOU made or implied about the truck in question.

"Jim C is getting paid to work on this 78 FJ40 FACT Jim is generating business for himself at my expense FACT. Jim is important in this web forum, I am not, his friends are also quick to bash me. Popularity in a clicky web forum is not the real world. Jim C and pals have posted threats to my family, myself, and my business."

-Wrong again, but nice try...JimC has earned ACTUAL TRUST on this forum because he is an HONEST BUSINESS MAN. Period. He is not GENERATING business, he is fixing what you seem to have been unable or unwilling to do correctly. JimC has NEVER threatened you or your family to my knowledge. YOU threaten the well being of YOUR "Business" by doing it poorly and if that then equates to not being able to cover the nut and provide for your family, then that is on YOU. Your attempts at victimhood are falling on deaf ears....

"If my previous responses seem angry, well they are. I think this web forum was meant to be fun and helpful, not a breeding ground for hate."

-So...as a tight-knit community of mostly HONEST people, we should look the other way when documented criminals seemingly attempt to take advantage of a trusting environment?

"Pictures of this 78 are on this thread, pictures regarding the rest of my work are displayed for public view."

-Right....pictures have NEVER been used to give an unrealistic depiction of anything. There is some sweet property in the Florida Everglades you need to look into...

"Fixing carburetors in a tool shed does not make Jim C the most knowledgeable Land Cruiser mechanic in the world..."

-No, his vast experience in many realms involving Land Cruisers, his vast knowledge in many realms involving Land Cruisers and his REPUTATION as honest, helpful and generous are what makes him one of the most knowledgable Land Cruiser mechanics in the world. Much Like Robbie Antonson is.

"I do concede a lesson from this drama, but I can’t think of any way this could have been rectified as the actual owner was happy with the purchase."

-You don't get to concede to yourself, that isn't the proper use of that word. The new owner was happy with what he THOUGHT was the case after being duped. Once he saw the gouges in the cylinder walls, I imagine he was less happy. Once he saw the tranny/tcase hadn't been touched since tiny Japanese hands installed it the first time...I imagine he wasn't as happy....etc.

"I’m done with the responses, but the action I’m taking is far from done."

-And another threat...you've learned nothing other than creative ways to rationalize potentially criminal behavior and how to justify "creative" reality to yourself.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Jim C claims the vehicle needs thousands in upgrades.

This is incorrect. The vehicle needs (and is getting) thousands of dollars of repairs to return it to baseline operating condition. This is often called "restoration".

The upgrades will amount to a less than $250 dollars: 55A IC alternator (to carry the AC & winch load) and a stock size battery (to carry the AC and winch load).

I’ve never spoke to Jim C,

Reaching out for some kind of explanation resulted in this email reply:
"I do not agree in the slightest with your "pro" opinion. Any future correspondence will be handled by my attorney/wife."

That made it clear that there was to be no more direct communication to try to resolve the situation.

Jim C posted threats to my family, myself, and my business.

Please cite any threatening posts by FJ40Jim and they will be retracted.

I could discount each issue, like the AC belt being too thin. Well that is the part # Vintage Air AC says to use.

A cruiser expert knows that Cruisers need a 17mm belt to keep the belt off the bottom of the drive pulley groove. Vintage Air is not Cruiser experts.

 

[crushers]

damn, that made me laugh ...

"I do not agree in the slightest with your "pro" opinion. Any future correspondence will be handled by my attorney/wife."

 

[Trapper50cal]

In all your shifty diatribes, you seem to be attempting to find the combination of words that will plausibly equate to your redemption...the problem is that those words don't exist...it's actions that ultimately redeem, actions involving honesty and true concession...to others.

...and your semantic revisions must work better in your head than in print because your attempts to redefine the arguments are CRAZY transparent.

 

[canucksafari]

i do appreciate you bringing this thread back to the front page though

I just figured he was adding some

 

[re_guderian]

bah, I can't resist...

Here is my final response to this firestorm...

somehow I doubt this. Guys like you never give up that easy. If you'd already talked to your lawyer wife and family, I'm sure they wouldn't have approved of you even making this most recent post. Either that, or you're incapable of following good advice.

...I sold JM this truck 8-9 months ago. I worked with JM over email on how he wanted this 78 FJ40 to be completed. I included several extras for free, JM and I had an excellent experience before/during/after the sale until JM took this vehicle to Jim Chenoweth of TLC Performance for a carburetor tune-up...

I think we got all this the first time, and still, don't see the relevance to your cause. So the customer didn't have any issues until he found your problems? OK, so what? That's easily understandable since he wasn't going to tear down your "recently restored" rig.

The purchase price on this truck was low 30k range after the add-ons. Jim C claims the vehicle needs thousands in upgrades.

We're with you so far, except I don't think Jim called things like transmissions, belts, engine parts, etc. "upgrades". Check your definition of that word.

...I’ve never spoke to Jim C,...

Obviously, Maybe you should have?

...but he felt the need to be an internet hero and bash me on this forum...

"internet hero"? "bash"? The truth is what it is. "bashing" is baseless. You still haven't even attempted to address any of the specifics questions you have been asked multiple times in this thread. So who then, is bashing? Benton City must have it's own dialect of English, 'cause you're doing a pretty good job of f'ing up the common vernacular so far...

Jim C is getting paid to work on this 78 FJ40 FACT Jim is generating business for himself at my expense FACT...

So? FACTS that are pretty irrelevant. Jim is getting paid to correct things that shouldn't have needed correcting. And if your customer wants to pay someone else because they don't trust you, that is entirely up to them. Jim is free to generate business at your expense, as long as customers line up with work to be done. Are you aware of any of your other customers that have gone to Jim in Jim's effort to "generate" business? Again, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Jim is important in this web forum, I am not, his friends are also quick to bash me...

First part not true. Jim's business transcends IH8MUD, and there are vast sections of this forum who don't even know who Jim C is. (Hell, most LC owners for the last 24 years don't even know what a carb is...). Second part about you not being important is pretty irrelevant too. The only truly important person on this forum is Woody, since he owns it. The others come and go over the years. Many folks on here were associated before the internet blossomed via the LCML, but again, there is no "popularity contest". The bashing is never baseless, and no one gets a free pass. Even old timers get called out on stuff. Some man up and deal with it, some slink away. Which kind are you?

Popularity in a clicky web forum is not the real world...

I agree with you. But again, so what? This isn't about popularity, this is about you dodging direct, relevant questions. How about addressing the tranny rebuild?

...Jim C and pals have posted threats to my family, myself, and my business...

name one of these "threats" that have been posted.

Of course I’m doing something about it...

Do tell. I think you want to. That's why you came back.

If my previous responses seem angry, well they are...

No, they don't seem angry. They seem evasive and threatening. All the while still avoiding the direct issues.

...I think this web forum was meant to be fun and helpful, not a breeding ground for hate...

"fun" is irrelevant. This thread, the tech thread associated with it, and many, many, many others like it that warn others of questionable vendors are extemely helpful to the community. Again, not sure what you mean by "hate". Please clarify. If you equate "hate" with exposing the truth, that's your problem, and your defintion, which I feel no need to abide by.

... The posts are obviously in violation regarding the user terms...

Which post # is in violation of which user terms? Details, please. Sounds like you're trolling for people to think you know about the legality of forum postings. I call your bluff. Put up a post # and a user term that it violates. We'll wait...

...I’ve been restoring Land Cruisers as a hobby for years, full time for just a few years...

So what? No one gets a free pass. Time in grade is not an excuse for a tranny rebuild not getting done.

...Everyone can see my eBay feedback fj40man79, there are many more as seen in all the photobucket , facebook and old myspace pictures. I’ve done a couple thousand transactions regarding Land Cruisers and parts in person and over the net. I’m happy with the 98% of people who satisfied, the other 2% well, unfortunately, anyone that has run a small business knows it is impossible to please everyone...

Newsflash, no one cares about your "feedback". For all we know, this actually IS the first transaction with the claims not matching the hardware. But you keep refusing to address it. I guarantee you that if you can prove Jim C is showing fraudulent pictures of the truck, that he will get a lambasting from this forum, and likely lose all his business from it. We care about THIS truck, because if you do it once (and apparently you did it a lot in the past), it's likely to happen to someone else, unless you can step up, directly address the issues, and make it right. Continued re-directs by you refering to your past feedback, the number of trucks you've sold, your lawyer family, all act as diversions to the central issue. Frankly, you're being a buffoon about this. As a small businessman, this should be obvious to you. You don't believe that this forum would give one of it's own members a lambasting if they were being an idiot? Go search the recent Alcan Spring thread.

... Pictures of this 78 are on this thread...

Neat-o. Where's the pictures of the undercarriage?

... pictures regarding the rest of my work are displayed for public view...

Not relevant to the issue at hand. This isn't about "reputation", this is about specifics. Get specific, or get lost.

...Fixing carburetors in a tool shed does not make Jim C the most knowledgeable Land Cruiser mechanic in the world, yes the real world, not the web forum hate fest...

You should do your homework, because now your just talking out your ass. But it's kind of funny, so maybe keep it up. Besides, nobody said Jim C was "the most knowledgeable Land Cruiser mechanic in the world." Did you see that title anywhere in this, or the tech, thread? No. But a lot more people here, and in the "real world" as you call it, know his skills compared to yours.

...I do concede a lesson from this drama...

what lesson is that? Don't sell crap to people that might find it? But seriously, I do side with you on the sight-unseen sales. People should be responsible for what they buy. And also what they sell. It DOES cut both ways.

... but I can’t think of any way this could have been rectified as the actual owner was happy with the purchase...

Have you talked to him lately? Has he contacted you? Are you like the JD Power Initial Quality guy? "Hey, he left my lot and didn't say a word, so it all must be good?" If so, you may, or may not, have the law on your side, but you won't garner any additional business from people who now know what they can expect from you.

... The owner is an intelligent guy, I’m sure he would have bought the vehicle if he did see it in person, but I’m disappointed for the owner and how this drama has spiraled out of control...

Relevance? If he wasn't a cruiser expert, and actually believed that you had restored the tranny, yes, he still may have bought it. He may have bought it anyway, who know? Who cares? This "drama" as you call it is all about how you represented the truck versus it's actual condition. Not in "gereralities", but in some very, very, spedific ways. BTW, the drama isn't "out of control". You could control it very easily by answering (again) the direct questions that you keep avoiding.

...The jumping to conclusions in this thread are a real testament to the mob mentality, it is pathetic. I’ve been called every name in the book on here from people I’ve never done business with, met, or even spoke to. Really Really Sad...

You are certianly free to feel however you want, we really won't take it too hard. Unless you can provide any kind of rebuttal to the actual condition of the specifics of said vehicle that Jim has brought to light, I see no reason to change my opinion of you. I really don't care what you think about "mob mentality" or "jumping to conclusions" because I know that those types of things are rare here. Again, go reference the recent Alcan thread. And again, I think there are some names in the book that you haven't been called, unless you've got a really, really small book up there in Benton City.

...http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/... Completed Dec 11/78FJ40CompleteMonast002.jpg link to the actual vehicle in question. I could discount each item Jim C makes issue of...

OMG. OMG. OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!!! DO IT!! Discount EACH ONE!!!!! WE CAN'T WAIT!!!
But I bet you won't. You'll hide behind yet another excsuse to dodge this very issue - the whole crux of the drama if you will, which will tarnish your reputation even more. In fact, we don't even need you to discount "each one". Start with the tranny and we'll go from there, if needed.

...Really a waste of time to even respond on here or attempt to defend myself...

That's up to you. If you'd like this board to accurately represent your business, then it's not a waste of time. It's your "real world" business to win or lose.

...I’m obviously being encouraged to continue the drama by responding, this is my final say, make up your own mind...

I'm pretty sure your previous handful of posts and lack of any credibility shown in them have made up most people's minds. I guarantee that if you gave us one shred of a reason to believe that the truck in question here actually had a rebuilt tranny, and you had a decent explanation for the pictures that Jim is showing, we'd all be in your court, so-to-speak.

...I’m done with the responses, but the action I’m taking is far from done.

Now you're just being a tool. More threats? Nice. oooooo. we're all quaking in our shoes. We'd better not respond to Brett from Benton City, WA, or his wife and family will sue us for something...