80 vs 60 steering box for Ram assist ALSO why am I burning up pumps like crazy

[cruisermatt]

Well after burning up my 4th or 5th steering pump it's time for a ram-assist. I have a 80 series steering box on my wagon currently, which alone is an upgrade over the 60 box, but if you're putting a ram on it how much does the bigger piston really come into effect? Mathematically its obviously better but in terms of actual feel does it matter? Has anyone run both on the same rig? Reason I ask is I have a leaking 60 box here I was thinking of setting up with the ports since it needs to be rebuilt anyways. And leaving the 80 box intact to sell or keep as a spare since they're more expensive. Any thoughts?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

FWIW, I have a saginaw pump on my truck, and haven't burnt it up pushing 35s on the street, and 42s in the rocks, no ram-assist.

 

[cruisermatt]

FWIW, I have a saginaw pump on my truck, and haven't burnt it up pushing 35s on the street, and 42s in the rocks, no ram-assist.

There are a lot of variations of the saginaw pumps and I would be the 4BT/6BT is one of the heavier duty variants, just based on the original application (and since you are limited to only that style pump based on the gear-drive and mounting). How much of that do you have the front locker turned on? I think the front lunchbox locker (always on) is why I keep burning up pumps.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

There are a lot of variations of the saginaw pumps and I would be the 4BT/6BT is one of the heavier duty variants, just based on the original application (and since you are limited to only that style pump based on the gear-drive and mounting). How much of that do you have the front locker turned on? I think the front lunchbox locker (always on) is why I keep burning up pumps.

It's the same saginaw pump as any other. I wanted to refresh it some number of years ago, bought whatever ford/chevy/dodge saginaw i wanted, then put it onto the 4bt gear drive adapter. It's the same pump.

Front locker is probably a factor in that. I turn the front locker on for an obstacle, then off right as I'm done with it. 42s don't add as much strain as a front locker.

 

[cruisermatt]

It's the same saginaw pump as any other. I wanted to refresh it some number of years ago, bought whatever ford/chevy/dodge saginaw i wanted, then put it onto the 4bt gear drive adapter. It's the same pump.

Front locker is probably a factor in that. I turn the front locker on for an obstacle, then off right as I'm done with it. 42s don't add as much strain as a front locker.

Interesting pump info, i didn't know that.
And yeah, I know the front locker is the issue. That wasn't really a question.

The question was about the steering boxes And I suspect the answer is that with the ram installed the 4mm piston diameter difference doesn't really show up

 

[GLTHFJ60]

The ram-assist increases the surface area of the hydraulics pushing the steering around. Just like there's a happy medium for ram-assist size, I'm sure it's really a happy medium of total piston surface area relative to your pump.

The extra piston surface area of the 80 box wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure it'd be an advantage either. No direct experience though, so I'll shut up now. When I rebuilt my 80 box with the 105 sector shaft, I ported it, so that's what I plan on using.

 

[too tall]

You are running a saginaw pump? Lots of guys I know have tried all different kinds of pumps on different systems. The most reliable I have found is a saginaw pump for a mid 80's chevy w/hydroboost. They come with more flow at idle and a bit more pressure overall.
Most of the time guys burn out pumps because of reservoir starvation or air bubbles in the fluid or improper bleeding from the start resulting in whiny pumps because of worm seals from the bleeding process.
If you are burning up pumps, I would look at the res, cooler or the line configuration/size. Steering boxes don't have much to do with causing pump failure other than restricted return lines or not enough cooling capacity in the system.
Also make sure you bleed all of the air out straight off the hop.

 

[cruisermatt]

You are running a saginaw pump? Lots of guys I know have tried all different kinds of pumps on different systems. The most reliable I have found is a saginaw pump for a mid 80's chevy w/hydroboost. They come with more flow at idle and a bit more pressure overall.
Most of the time guys burn out pumps because of reservoir starvation or air bubbles in the fluid or improper bleeding from the start resulting in whiny pumps because of worm seals from the bleeding process.
If you are burning up pumps, I would look at the res, cooler or the line configuration/size. Steering boxes don't have much to do with causing pump failure other than restricted return lines or not enough cooling capacity in the system.
Also make sure you bleed all of the air out straight off the hop.

I am stuck with remote reservoir pumps because of clearance issues. Currently running a 2016-20 Duramax pump, about a year old but it’s squealing since the last Rubicon run.
Any thoughts on my original question? Do you think the 80 box is worth it to port for ram-assist or do you think it won’t matter 60/80.

 

[Zjohnsonua]

So long as the pump can supply the flow, the ram's assistive force tied directly to the knuckle is going to overwhelm any gains seen in "upgrading" to the 80-box. Port whatever you have loose and go.

 

[ThreeEyedBandit]

Port the 60 box since it's out and needs rebuilt anyways. You'll see see such an increase with cylinder assist the difference in box diameter will be nil.

Also, figure out why you are burning up pumps first. There is no reason locked on 35s will burn them up. It's either cavitation or cooling.

What are you using for the remote reservoir?

 

[Elbert]

does not answer your question but I'm a fan of the PSC ps pump and remote resivor. I've run through 4-5 ps pumps (V8 5.7 engine) . Anyway most of the re-builds on PS pumps are junk. I also replaced the steering gear/box with a fullly rebuilt one. Not had problems since then. I run 35 inch tires, and some aftermarket ps cooler I've forgotten what brand/model. So once new rebuilt steering gear and the noted PSC pump and gear I've not had any further issues with power steering.

 

[cruisermatt]

Port the 60 box since it's out and needs rebuilt anyways. You'll see see such an increase with cylinder assist the difference in box diameter will be nil.

Also, figure out why you are burning up pumps first. There is no reason locked on 35s will burn them up. It's either cavitation or cooling.

What are you using for the remote reservoir?

I agree. I feel my setup should be very robust and reliable and work fine with the parts with the parts I have. However I have never been completely satisfied with the amount of power steering assist I've had with this setup. And it has always started boiling fluid over during harder wheeling.
Current setup is 2016-20 Duramax pump (kinda bolts to my LS motor), feeding into a hydroboost before the 80 series steering box. Had a cooler in the return side on the way back to a PSC remote reservoir. Upgraded to a really big cooler to see if that would help with no difference. 10AN feed back to the pump, relatively straight shot. I will try to find some good pics to post.

Additional information that may be worth noting is I only started having issues when I did the V8 swap, I put the hydroboost and 80 gearbox in at the same time. Never had an issue with the stock 3FE engine and pump with the same tires/locker. Granted it wasn't super easy to steer but I wasn't burning pumps up or boiling fluid. Is it possible I just have a bad box causing all this?

 

[cruisermatt]

hydroboost and reservoir setup from when everything was fresh and new

 

[GLTHFJ60]

There are sections where I've got my front locked, with 42" TSLs in the rocks for an hour or more working a technical section, and have never had an issue with my steering boiling over. My setup is almost identical to yours.

Maybe you have a bad box?

 

[cruisermatt]

There are sections where I've got my front locked, with 42" TSLs in the rocks for an hour or more working a technical section, and have never had an issue with my steering boiling over. My setup is almost identical to yours.

Maybe you have a bad box?

Maybe? I have no idea on the history of this steering box before I got it.
Could a bad box burn up a pump?
Could a hydroboost be bad? Enough to cause enough flow restriction to burn up a pump? The brakes work great.
these are expensive questions

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I don't know how to go about eliminating components. Maybe in-line pressure gauges, but it'd be hard to monitor.

 

[cruisermatt]

I don't know how to go about eliminating components. Maybe in-line pressure gauges, but it'd be hard to monitor.

I guess I could bypass the hydroboost pretty quickly and easily with a double ended 6AN fitting. No power brakes but should be able to see if it makes a difference with a new pump pretty quickly just sitting on the driveway. As for the box I guess I just need to borrow one that I know is good. Either way this pump is shot so I guess that's the first thing to do.

 

[ThreeEyedBandit]

It is possibly the box or hydroboost is causing problems, but after holding a PSC filter/reservoir I wasn't super impressed. I would first try dumping all fluid out of the system, dump a little more through then start from scratch. Pull the pressure line off the pump and let it gravity feed, then steer left and right til your arms are tired a couple dozen times. I pull the drag link off the box for this.

I fought a similar problem when going cylinder assist, went through a modified stock(baffle and filter removed) and couple aftermarket reservoirs and finally ended up with a stock 80 series reservoir. My similar problem I was running into was I could get it mostly bled out but there was always he slightest 'groan' I could feel through the steering wheel and the fluid wasn't as clear as new, but not milky. Theory is the fluid would get aerated, but the micro small bubbles couldn't 'float' out of the fluid and would get passed around non stop.

 

[ThreeEyedBandit]

Also what fluid are you running, and how does it look compared to new?

 

[cruisermatt]

Also what fluid are you running, and how does it look compared to new?

just regular ATF. I haven't looked at it in awhile.