Pit,
It's your truck so do as you please. C-Dan's dogs need feeding each and every day.
-B-
It's your truck so do as you please. C-Dan's dogs need feeding each and every day.
-B-
80 front end repack: dealer done? when?
- Thread starter e9999
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
Yep, no way the birfs are getting fresh lube from that strategy. Absolutely no way. They're not in the steering knuckle where you're putting the grease. They're in their own chamber inside the steering knuckle and the grease just flows by the opening and out the sweep seals which by design weep out onto the outer knuckle where you can see it under the truck.
Doug
Doug
yup.....
<---- look at my Avatar....
bought the truck at 165k, birfs never done. PS wipers were leaking and was dry when I opened it up. Its the side that busted.
The quote I got for a birf repack at my Toyota dealer was about $1000 (no...that doesn't include new birfs....) I think most original Cruiser owners balk at this price. Afterall, a Toyota never dies right? Many (not us, but original owners) feel that spending $1000 every 60k miles is absurd so they just don't do it.
BTW: I got the new OEM Toyota birf I bought at a deal... $450. They're like $600 list. It hurt....
the worst part is that I had all the parts and was going to do the repack the following weekend :-[
Also, my clicking wasn't bad. I only noticed it when at full lock with the front diff locked and spinning in the snow. (the main reason I was planning a repack)
Not loud at all, but how do you compare *loudness* in text :
<---- look at my Avatar....
bought the truck at 165k, birfs never done. PS wipers were leaking and was dry when I opened it up. Its the side that busted.
The quote I got for a birf repack at my Toyota dealer was about $1000 (no...that doesn't include new birfs....) I think most original Cruiser owners balk at this price. Afterall, a Toyota never dies right? Many (not us, but original owners) feel that spending $1000 every 60k miles is absurd so they just don't do it.
BTW: I got the new OEM Toyota birf I bought at a deal... $450. They're like $600 list. It hurt....
the worst part is that I had all the parts and was going to do the repack the following weekend :-[
Also, my clicking wasn't bad. I only noticed it when at full lock with the front diff locked and spinning in the snow. (the main reason I was planning a repack)
Not loud at all, but how do you compare *loudness* in text :
Aren't newfields like $350?
Stronger than OEM too
Stronger than OEM too
that's a whole other can of worms to open :
consensus I formed at the time was that they were NOT as strong as stock.
The 80 series Newfield has no design changes at all over stock (unlike mini/40/60 birfs) but is made out of their own steel. This steel seems to be lacking.
I've heard from numerous highly respected members of the community that they weren't lasting. I went OEM as my abused original lasted 165k miles.
I also talked to Bobby Long about getting my new one heat treated/ stronger, but we both decided it wasn't worth it as his process actually makes the steel softer. This would be bad on a full time 4wd as they would wear faster.
consensus I formed at the time was that they were NOT as strong as stock.
The 80 series Newfield has no design changes at all over stock (unlike mini/40/60 birfs) but is made out of their own steel. This steel seems to be lacking.
I've heard from numerous highly respected members of the community that they weren't lasting. I went OEM as my abused original lasted 165k miles.
I also talked to Bobby Long about getting my new one heat treated/ stronger, but we both decided it wasn't worth it as his process actually makes the steel softer. This would be bad on a full time 4wd as they would wear faster.
George at CV Unlimited is rumored to be experimenting with a new variation of the 80-series birf. I know what Christo junked at BHCC was not it.
As Klunky said, you compromise longevity by treating to a softer Rockwell rating, and on a daily-driver type rig without lockouts, that will accellerate wear. For those of us who have lockout hubs and/or don't use them daily, it's a worthwhile compromise, accepting the increased long term wear over the shortterm survivability.
My "guess" is CVU is gonna try and find the majic #...a stronger birf with acceptable wear....perhaps it will last 2/3 as long (100k instead of 150k) but have 25% greater strength. (I'm not a metallurgist, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....but I have had a few conversations with George at CVU)
As Klunky said, you compromise longevity by treating to a softer Rockwell rating, and on a daily-driver type rig without lockouts, that will accellerate wear. For those of us who have lockout hubs and/or don't use them daily, it's a worthwhile compromise, accepting the increased long term wear over the shortterm survivability.
My "guess" is CVU is gonna try and find the majic #...a stronger birf with acceptable wear....perhaps it will last 2/3 as long (100k instead of 150k) but have 25% greater strength. (I'm not a metallurgist, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....but I have had a few conversations with George at CVU)
When I bought my Cruiser I checked with the local dealer tech (pretty knowlegable). He said that they will often do the Birfields at 60,000-90,000. He also said as long as you keep and eye on them and service them as soon as you see any signs of leakage, you can wait. (Fortuanately mine were done at 90k).
Cary
Cary
Just had my local guy do my wheel bearings at 130K miles, everything looks good and mine is/and has been a "Mall Queen" so I will have the birfields done, but not until 160K miles when it is time to do the wheel bearings again. If it ends up being a problem, I will end up paying. Like they say you are responsible for your actions. But, thanks for the different views on what should be done and when. Alway learn something from you guys when I come on this site.
Pit,
Just FYI, whomever did your wheel bearings and claimed the birfs looked fine was not being truthful. You don't get near the birfs for a simple wheel bearing and no external indicator can judge their condition.
I agree with your position that it's up to the owner, but I think what I and others here on this list are saying is this: Many of the experienced members here make up the brain trust of the 80's maintenance knowledge in the US. And they're aware of the specialty nature of the 80's sturdy construction, and that the birf's are a part many dealers/mechanics are simply unfamiliar with.
Doug
Just FYI, whomever did your wheel bearings and claimed the birfs looked fine was not being truthful. You don't get near the birfs for a simple wheel bearing and no external indicator can judge their condition.
I agree with your position that it's up to the owner, but I think what I and others here on this list are saying is this: Many of the experienced members here make up the brain trust of the 80's maintenance knowledge in the US. And they're aware of the specialty nature of the 80's sturdy construction, and that the birf's are a part many dealers/mechanics are simply unfamiliar with.
Doug
Pit - I'm going to jump in here too. I was in a similar position to you. Just bought my 1995 80 series last August. The PO had just done the wheel bearings but didn't do the birfs.
Basically I couldn't sleep very well not knowing the state of the birfs, how dry were they, is gear oil getting in there? how about the knuckle bearings?????
I was even reluctant to lock it up and go offroading.
perhaps I'm anal but it's in my nature to stress over stuff like this. I also want to keep my rig for another 15 + years.
I was going to have this service done at the dealer but again I stressed too much that they wouldn't do it correctly. Plus the cost.....
So I just did it myself (with Simon helping) and wow! what a great feeling!
The state of everything was fine but now I can sleep and know that I can go another 60+ K without worries. The sleep factor was well worth it.
Also consider that at 160K the knuckle bearings will be wearing. From what I've read the failure of the knuckle bearings gets mis-diagnosed for other things like alignment ect.... So in the end you'll never know the condition of this other stuff.
My knuckles are now simply a work of art to see. I crawl underneath every week (sometimes more) and just gaze.
My 2 cents is get some sleep and do the birfs. You can really do it yourself and you'll feel like you just climbed Mt Everest. !!
The guys here on this site really know their stuff and will help you with any issues you might encounter.
Riley
Basically I couldn't sleep very well not knowing the state of the birfs, how dry were they, is gear oil getting in there? how about the knuckle bearings?????
I was even reluctant to lock it up and go offroading.
perhaps I'm anal but it's in my nature to stress over stuff like this. I also want to keep my rig for another 15 + years.
I was going to have this service done at the dealer but again I stressed too much that they wouldn't do it correctly. Plus the cost.....
So I just did it myself (with Simon helping) and wow! what a great feeling!
The state of everything was fine but now I can sleep and know that I can go another 60+ K without worries. The sleep factor was well worth it.
Also consider that at 160K the knuckle bearings will be wearing. From what I've read the failure of the knuckle bearings gets mis-diagnosed for other things like alignment ect.... So in the end you'll never know the condition of this other stuff.
My knuckles are now simply a work of art to see. I crawl underneath every week (sometimes more) and just gaze.
My 2 cents is get some sleep and do the birfs. You can really do it yourself and you'll feel like you just climbed Mt Everest. !!
The guys here on this site really know their stuff and will help you with any issues you might encounter.
Riley
Riley,
>> My knuckles are now simply a work of art to see. <<
>> I crawl underneath every week (sometimes more) and just gaze. <<
Please post up some pics. I just LOVE seeing some well done knuckles.... it's porn for me.
-B-
>> My knuckles are now simply a work of art to see. <<
>> I crawl underneath every week (sometimes more) and just gaze. <<
Please post up some pics. I just LOVE seeing some well done knuckles.... it's porn for me.
-B-
Don't tease me like that Doug... you know what it does to me?
-B-
-B-
Doug............ 
Great,
That's just great. Wind him up like that, are U nutz?
He's gonna be callin' me up at three in the morning to open the store to get him new wipers.
Great,
That's just great. Wind him up like that, are U nutz?
He's gonna be callin' me up at three in the morning to open the store to get him new wipers.
Nope, I've got 3 sets of spares... just waiting for the next birf job. Ohhhh baby.
-B-
-B-
Keep in mind that prolonged exposure to automotive petroleum products is known to cause cancer....so keep in mind where you use that lube!
Naw,
No worries there Dan,
He's gonna stop when he need glasses.... :
No worries there Dan,
He's gonna stop when he need glasses.... :
Dannies,
I use gloves.
-B-
I use gloves.
-B-
[quote author=Beowulf link=board=2;threadid=6260;start=msg60959#msg60959 date=1068424486]
Pit,
I'll agree that you can push the maintenance but it will catch up with you and the costs can be staggering. It's very frustrating to be saving your pennies for a S/C or a winch, or Slee armour... then having to spend that $$$ on birfields, axles, and 3rd members.
-B-
[/quote]
That is a good point. With all of the FZJ80's running around with owners that don't have a clue that they need to be serviced I would think there would be a lot of bad birfields and broken down 80's. Talked to a guy at the gym today that bought a 95 FZJ80 from an original owner that had it serviced at the local Toyota dealer (that I know does not suggest servicing the birfields). He bought it with 130K miles on it and now has 180K miles. I suggested that he service his birfields and he did not know what I was talking about. I explained it to him and gave him the name of my guy who serviced LC's up in Alaska. Another guy at the gym has over 200K miles on his 91 FJ80 and he did not know about the birfields either. I bet 90% of the owners of 80's don't ever get the birfields serviced until they have a problem. What does it cost to replace the damaged birfields? How many have you seen that needed to be replaced (not talking about from the stress caused by off road breakage). Just wondering how common damaged birfields are? Guess this could be a stupid question on this site since the owners that post here are informed and regularly service their birfields and/or know that a problem existed and take care of it before major damage. Anyone work at a Toyota dealership and see high mileage LC's come in with damaged birfields?
Pit,
I'll agree that you can push the maintenance but it will catch up with you and the costs can be staggering. It's very frustrating to be saving your pennies for a S/C or a winch, or Slee armour... then having to spend that $$$ on birfields, axles, and 3rd members.
-B-
[/quote]
That is a good point. With all of the FZJ80's running around with owners that don't have a clue that they need to be serviced I would think there would be a lot of bad birfields and broken down 80's. Talked to a guy at the gym today that bought a 95 FZJ80 from an original owner that had it serviced at the local Toyota dealer (that I know does not suggest servicing the birfields). He bought it with 130K miles on it and now has 180K miles. I suggested that he service his birfields and he did not know what I was talking about. I explained it to him and gave him the name of my guy who serviced LC's up in Alaska. Another guy at the gym has over 200K miles on his 91 FJ80 and he did not know about the birfields either. I bet 90% of the owners of 80's don't ever get the birfields serviced until they have a problem. What does it cost to replace the damaged birfields? How many have you seen that needed to be replaced (not talking about from the stress caused by off road breakage). Just wondering how common damaged birfields are? Guess this could be a stupid question on this site since the owners that post here are informed and regularly service their birfields and/or know that a problem existed and take care of it before major damage. Anyone work at a Toyota dealership and see high mileage LC's come in with damaged birfields?
Just a comment about swapping the birfs from side to side.
On a new joint there is still some tolerances between the parts them selves. Now as you start driving them the tighter balls/sockets begin to wear first until all are seated equally. Now here you come along and reverse the direction. Doesn't the wear process start all over again on the other side of the joint. Now you have twice the amount of slop in the joint if you hadn't reversed them. Also what about the process of work hardening the joint in that original direction. Junk once made a comment that he felt that birfs were failing more now than before. I was wondering if that is because once they are replaced they aren't getting that hardening effect becasued they are put back into trail service quite quickly instead of the original 3 year mall duty first?
If you do the repack and completely disassembly the joint I'd make sure each and every ball was back in the original hole and all was as it were before I started.
On a new joint there is still some tolerances between the parts them selves. Now as you start driving them the tighter balls/sockets begin to wear first until all are seated equally. Now here you come along and reverse the direction. Doesn't the wear process start all over again on the other side of the joint. Now you have twice the amount of slop in the joint if you hadn't reversed them. Also what about the process of work hardening the joint in that original direction. Junk once made a comment that he felt that birfs were failing more now than before. I was wondering if that is because once they are replaced they aren't getting that hardening effect becasued they are put back into trail service quite quickly instead of the original 3 year mall duty first?
If you do the repack and completely disassembly the joint I'd make sure each and every ball was back in the original hole and all was as it were before I started.
