2FE vs 3FE (2 Viewers)

[woytovich]

I bill by the hour for my work.
If the result is getting relatively equivalent fuel injection either way then I'd sooner spend $1400 and 20 hours (really? you think that much?) instead of $700 and closer to 100 hours.... that is a no brainer for me.

 

[woytovich]

Then the ROI: how much do I need/want FI? Honestly it is not a lot of times that I get into a stall situation and never one I can't choke/throttle knob my way out of...
So maybe this project is dying....

 

[gregnash]

I bill by the hour for my work.
If the result is getting relatively equivalent fuel injection either way then I'd sooner spend $1400 and 20 hours (really? you think that much?) instead of $700 and closer to 100 hours.... that is a no brainer for me.

20hrs was really just a rough guess. I consider myself pretty anal retentive about certain things and so I would more than likely get the system mostly installed while mapping out the "true" path of the wires. Once everything was confirmed working I would then take my time to go back through and route everything, tie off, wrap, etc. so 20hrs is probably about right for ME.

Then the ROI: how much do I need/want FI? Honestly it is not a lot of times that I get into a stall situation and never one I can't choke/throttle knob my way out of...
So maybe this project is dying....

Well I guess then the PM will kick in here for me..... What is the ultimate goal of this project? Are you having a specific issue that you wish to fix and if so, describe it in detail. If not, then what is the purpose of going through this project?

For me, the addition of FI/FE would be to alleviate some of the issues found with cold/hot starts and the "slight" improvement in throttle response and mpgs. This is something that could TECHNICALLY be done with a nice engine go through and ensuring that time and carb and and and.... are all setup properly. But to what end at that point? To keep the system TOYOTA purist? That is really about it. For slightly more you could do yourself a JUNKYARD (Think my V8 theorycraft thread) SBC build and get your slight increase in mpgs, gain your FI setup and gain a considerable amount of power increase. HOWEVER, that would require a lot more time investment.

So what I am getting at is there is a balancing act... What is your ROI and CBA for the project? If it is just for fun and spending money then ROI and CBA have no bearing so jump headlong and have fun! BUUUUUTTTTTTTT, if there is a truer, more specific purpose to the project THEN that is where you need to think about your investment (as I am assuming you just don't have money or time to throw to the wind).

 

[woytovich]

FINE.

Goal: to not stall while in precarious situation when rock crawling and climbing steep rocks as experienced this last weekend.

Frequency of occurrence: Only when in the above situation. Likely 10x per year maximum.

Interest in any of the other associated potential benefits of FI: zero

Alternative solution: restart engine with choke and/or throttle control engaged resulting in short term rough running and tailpipe smoke and stink. Worst case: winch it out.

Value to me: < $1400

Conclusion: Project cancelled

 

[gregnash]

FINE.

Goal: to not stall while in precarious situation when rock crawling and climbing steep rocks as experienced this last weekend.

Frequency of occurrence: Only when in the above situation. Likely 10x per year maximum.

Interest in any of the other associated potential benefits of FI: zero

Alternative solution: restart engine with choke and/or throttle control engaged resulting in short term rough running and tailpipe smoke and stink. Worst case: winch it out.

Value to me: < $1400

Conclusion: Project cancelled

 

[woytovich]

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

is this a poll? I vote 3FE...

 

[DickM]

DickM, would be able to relate some driving impressions with the 2FE.?

The 2FE makes the 60 fun to drive. It is definitely not a V8, but it is nice to merge with traffic at a reasonable pace. It pulls grades a lot better than the 2F, only the steepest passes will push it down to 3rd gear and 35-40mph, unless I rev it up to and over 4k-which it will do and not sound or feel like it is going to explode. I think the balancing the shop did accounts for this.
The motor wakes up noticeably above 2k, and will rev up surprisingly fast. This really makes for good road manners, especially with the 5 speed. It cruises on the interstate. 70MPH is around 2750RPM.
If this was to be a hard core wheeling rig, you would need some lower gearing to make the most out of the power band. Although with the low 1st gear in the H55f it will still pull good at low RPMs like a 2F should, which is all I need it to do for my use.
I am happy with the results, especially considering how heavy the 60 seems to be getting as I keep adding "stuff".
HTH

 

[woytovich]

From my sig line:

86 FJ60+H55f+ToyBox4.7+4.56w/ARBs

Yeah, low low being 235:1 I'm low geared enough I think

 

[gregnash]

@DickM How much of that new found ability do you think is due to the work that you had done on the engine vs. the 2F-E mod? Main reason for asking is that with my desmog I am able to pull 70mph in 4th at 2750ish rpm. So seems like it didnt do much for you but then again your truck is a lot heavier than mine.

 

[DickM]

How much of that new found ability do you think is due to the work that you had done on the engine vs. the 2F-E mod?

Hard to know, but I have to think that the motor work made a fairly significant difference. The balancing work definitely makes everything smoother, and the valve and cam change the power band. This motor is nothing like the 2F in the 40.......of course the 40 motor is pretty tired with lower compression.

As far as the 70mph at 2750, we are close because if you are stock, you have 3.73 in the diffs, and I am running 4.11. And I am heavier as well, so who really knows. The power seems a little "deeper", with those pesky downshifts further apart.

Next time you are in CO, stop by and we can trade trucks for a test drive!

 

[gregnash]

Hard to know, but I have to think that the motor work made a fairly significant difference. The balancing work definitely makes everything smoother, and the valve and cam change the power band. This motor is nothing like the 2F in the 40.......of course the 40 motor is pretty tired with lower compression.

As far as the 70mph at 2750, we are close because if you are stock, you have 3.73 in the diffs, and I am running 4.11. And I am heavier as well, so who really knows. The power seems a little "deeper", with those pesky downshifts further apart.

Next time you are in CO, stop by and we can trade trucks for a test drive!

Be careful I may take you up on that as I will be in Steamboat at the end of the month!! Speaking of I should see if @Miloslavich is gonna be around so I can see his truck.

 

[gregnash]

So after this thread it got me thinking... there are a few kits out there (most using some version of the Downey one that was once available) for anywhere from $1500-$2000 that add TBI to the current setup. Granted it seems like the biggest hassle on these items is sourcing the adapter for the intake AND getting the proper 2F BIN file burned to a chip. However, I have not really found a definitive write-up on how to do this through the junkyard (though I did apparently just find the Downey manual!!!!).

Anyways, with how cheap parts can be had from the local PnP or junkyard, would this be a worthwhile endeavor over trying to go completely 2FE (2F block with 3FE head and accessories, etc.)??? I think I sourced the majority of the parts from the PnP website and came out to less than $400 for everything, then about another $150 for an adapter for the TBI to the 2F intake.

I have seen all of 2 videos that feature a 2F with TBI on youtube and a few random threads on Pirate and here. Seems like it was once a good idea and then suddenly tanked. I know that @Trollhole Marshall was working on a kit at one point but never got past the V1 stage due to his shop taking off and not having enough time to dedicate to it (which is a good problem to have I guess). The one thing I did read is that if the compression is low in the engine that the TBI will not work properly, so anyone have any input?

This could be a cool small project that I could see myself taking on but also not since there is little to know documentation on it. Main reason is that the secondary valve thingy (cant think of what it is called ATM, the little actuator at the base of the carb) has been leaking since I rebuilt the top end. This causes some start issues for me, some days she will fire right up after sitting for a week or more and some days she will take 15 minutes to finally turn over after having been driven a few hours before.

 

[cruisermatt]

The port-injection of the 3FE is going to be far superior to any kind of TBI meandering through the 2F's crap runners.

If I were in your position I would be looking at a 2FE with standalone. I think there's a little extra potential in these motors with a cam and good tune.

 

[gregnash]

The port-injection of the 3FE is going to be far superior to any kind of TBI meandering through the 2F's crap runners.

If I were in your position I would be looking at a 2FE with standalone. I think there's a little extra potential in these motors with a cam and good tune.

While that is true the involvement of time for the conversion would far outweigh that of a tbi conversion and what would the gains from the 2FE over the TBI be with regards strictly to the FI portion.

My thought process from the little reading I have done on both that the time investment for the 2FE would be close to 2x or 3x more vs the TBI gathering, install and tweaking. Again the main time concern is finding someone that can burn the 2F Bin file for you.

 

[elripster]

While it might be true the TBI is less money the gains over a properly running 2F are probably not that much either so is it really a value? Appreciate that the 2FE brings the much better breathing of the 3FE with the long stroke torque of the 2F together with higher compression to produce a completely different and better performing and more efficient engine.

When my 2F ran well, it started when it was hot or cold as well as ran well at high and low altitudes. When I lived where it did not require smog, I desmogged it and it ran even better. Since TBI is not smog legal I'd say you are comparing TBI to a desmogged 2F and thus the gains could be minimal to none. So cheaper yes, but a better value? Debatable.

Frank

 

[woytovich]

As the OP (me) said: I an looking to get FI to stop the stalling while rock crawling with the nose of the truck pointed up at 50 degrees+/=

As @gregnash pointed out it may be that the TBI is "good enough" for that goal.

 

[Willard]

Good thread
I have this exact same issue. Toyota FE va TBI.
Ultimately I will go with TBI.
Couple of reasons, avalibility of parts.
Support in case of an issue (outside of forums)
Basically bolt on vs total fab.
I work day in and day out for a consulting company and know what my time is worth vs value of the job.

My reasoning for FE is living in Northern Virginia and starting a carbed vehicle is a pain in the ass.
My 60 will be my daily driver and I want reliability.
+ I take a yearly track to Colorado for some fishing and light off-road in the high mountains.

A job that will be 100+ hours to complete for $500-600 in parts
At a simple rate of $50 per hour
Is $5500-6500

Using a prebuilt TBI kit.
Figure $1500 with the throttle cable and a weld in bung for the O2 sensor + 20 hours of work at $50 per hour
That is $2500 for the same job.
1/2 the price and 1/2 the headache.

This is not accounting for the downtime of the vehicle etc.

Food for thought anyway

 

[gregnash]

As the OP (me) said: I an looking to get FI to stop the stalling while rock crawling with the nose of the truck pointed up at 50 degrees+/=

As @gregnash pointed out it may be that the TBI is "good enough" for that goal.

Yeah and the main contributing factor is YOU. YOU have to determine whether the TBI is good enough and what the definition of "good enough" is. Like my mentor used to say (and I have actually started saying in project meetings)..... SOON is a four letter word.

Good thread
I have this exact same issue. Toyota FE va TBI.
Ultimately I will go with TBI.
Couple of reasons, avalibility of parts.
Support in case of an issue (outside of forums)
Basically bolt on vs total fab.
I work day in and day out for a consulting company and know what my time is worth vs value of the job.

My reasoning for FE is living in Northern Virginia and starting a carbed vehicle is a pain in the ass.
My 60 will be my daily driver and I want reliability.
+ I take a yearly track to Colorado for some fishing and light off-road in the high mountains.

A job that will be 100+ hours to complete for $500-600 in parts
At a simple rate of $50 per hour
Is $5500-6500

Using a prebuilt TBI kit.
Figure $1500 with the throttle cable and a weld in bung for the O2 sensor + 20 hours of work at $50 per hour
That is $2500 for the same job.
1/2 the price and 1/2 the headache.

This is not accounting for the downtime of the vehicle etc.

Food for thought anyway

Right, that is true process thinking right there. Equate the ROI vs. the initial money out the door against the ability to install yourself vs. having someone else do it. Personally I like the looks of the kit from AFI over the Redline or Holley kits, but sure that all of them are great.

For me, right now having a second vehicle down would be hard as I rely on it to get to work (seeing as I cant ride my bike like I normally would be). If I do pursue this myself, it would more than likely be a summer project and something where I would ensure gathering all the items prior to taking down the truck and have dedicated time to work on it. And actually I would probably spend the extra bit of money and have whatever TBI setup I pulled professionally cleaned and worked over prior to install.

This is still the most complete write-up I have found to-date outside of the Downey manual.
http://www.olympiafj60.net/2f-tbi-carb-replacemnet.html
, and this thread seems to have a couple MUD members that were able to burn chips at one point (looks like @YotaJosh is still active)
2F TBI

Adding this thread too as there is a copy of the 2F BIN File should you decide to go the route of DIY. Didn't realize that Kurt @cruiseroutfit had been doing one a long time ago... Wonder how that ever went?

 

[Trollhole]

We are installing a TBI on a 78 this week for AFI. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. They have improved upon the old program and upgraded the dizzy.