2024 GX/Prado Release and Discussion (2 Viewers)

[Rednexus]

Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them

I live in some of the ugliest winter conditions in the US and the AWD vehicles are almost universally the ones off the road in the ditch

Having the option for 4WD when needed saves huge amounts of fuel not to mention wear and tear on drive line and permits the driver to choose based on conditions

You may have more winter, but I'm betting we have far more ice here, far fewer snow plow drivers, and far more variable weather and road conditions in the Midwest. Also from having owned 2 Subarus and my GX - all to high mileage - they have had zero driveline issues other than torn front CV boots. The "wear and tear" argument is overstated but the fuel economy argument is accurate. The fuel economy penalty is worth it for a more capable vehicle that handles our local road conditions better. Outside of snow/ice, AWD is vastly superior on the gravel roads we have lots of around here - not even close between AWD and FWD/RWD/4WD.

Have you personally owned an AWD vehicle before? Or is your experience related to seeing stuff in the ditch relative to having driven them? AWD helps get you going but won't stop you any better than a 4WD or FWD/RWD vehicle.

 

[UZJ100LC]

Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them

I live in some of the ugliest winter conditions in the US and the AWD vehicles are almost universally the ones off the road in the ditch

Having the option for 4WD when needed saves huge amounts of fuel not to mention wear and tear on drive line and permits the driver to choose based on conditions

You are saying awd or full time 4wd is worse than rwd in snow and ice conditions? This is absurd and makes no sense.

 

[Phillyd2]

You are saying awd or full time 4wd is worse than rwd in snow and ice conditions? This is absurd and makes no sense.

Toyota lists the same MPG for both 4Rs. The wear and tear ‘opinion’ is equally as absurd.

 

[jayp2]

You are saying awd or full time 4wd is worse than rwd in snow and ice conditions? This is absurd and makes no sense.

4WD is necessary in lots of conditions but AWD is a waste of fuel, wear on driveline and tires

AWD is also fussy about tire wear...you cant replace one/two tires in most circumstances.....you have to replace all 4..

If AWD is your thing thats great

Its a total waste for me and most people

 

[Rednexus]

AWD is also fussy about tire wear...you cant replace one/two tires in most circumstances.....you have to replace all 4

In 14 years of AWD ownership that has been a problem for me exactly zero times.

They do require frequent rotations and staying on top of alignments but I do that with all vehicles.

Just because you don't see a need for AWD in your area doesn't mean its not useful for people who live in very different climates with very different road conditions. For my conditions in the Ozarks I'll never have a non-AWD vehicle outside of a weekend sports car or highway-only commuter.

Try one and you just might like it. For example I used to think Budweiser was good beer and that Chevy made good trucks.

 

[M1911]

No its not.....not even a little.

AWD is a disaster in a slide in snow/ice and the vehicles we see off the road in winter are almost exclusively AWD vehicles

Its tempting to buy the last MY of the Gen5 4Runner before Toyota f***s that offering up

That hasn't been my experience. I owned a 2003 V8 4Runner for 13 years. I've owned a 200 Series Land Cruiser for 7 or 8 years. If you lock the Torsen center diff, it behaves just like a part-time 4WD system in 4WD (I usually drive in snow with the center diff unlocked).

Behavior in snow and ice is mostly down to tires and driver care.

 

[jayp2]

In 14 years of AWD ownership that has been a problem for me exactly zero times.

They do require frequent rotations and staying on top of alignments but I do that with all vehicles.

Just because you don't see a need for AWD in your area doesn't mean its not useful for people who live in very different climates with very different road conditions. For my conditions in the Ozarks I'll never have a non-AWD vehicle outside of a weekend sports car or highway-only commuter.

Try one and you just might like it. For example I used to think Budweiser was good beer and that Chevy made good trucks.

Did I not already say it?

"If AWD is your thing thats great"

I've had several from different manufacturers and they universally sucked in a slide and are far less predictable than FWD or RWD

No substitute for the ability to have 4WD when you need it but 99.999% of miles driven are totally useless for AWD

 

[GrizzlyClint]

Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them

I live in some of the ugliest winter conditions in the US and the AWD vehicles are almost universally the ones off the road in the ditch

Having the option for 4WD when needed saves huge amounts of fuel not to mention wear and tear on drive line and permits the driver to choose based on conditions

This is a driver and or tire problem more than a drivetrain problem. I learned how to drive on ice in a 1990 Camaro with a V8 and a busted ABS system. Again, the driver and the tires are the important bit. AWD or 4WD will inherently be better than RWD unless you are completely inept at driving in inclement weather and or have the wrong tires. 99.99999% of the people here will agree with this.

 

[jayp2]

This is a driver and or tire problem more than a drivetrain problem. I learned how to drive on ice in a 1990 Camaro with a V8 and a busted ABS system. Again, the driver and the tires are the important bit. AWD or 4WD will inherently be better than RWD unless you are completely inept at driving in inclement weather and or have the wrong tires. 99.99999% of the people here will agree with this.

Yes and No

Yes....lots of drivers just suck and AWD gives them a false sense of security 99.9999% of the time so when stuff gets slick they ignore the conditions and boom

Some of this is basic engineering problem

More parts/moving assemblies increase complexity and initial cost not to mention cost to maintain and repair.

There's no way around that

 

[malden]

This 2wd vs AWD debate is not a crazy one and it is very common on automotive forums, especially sport’s car forums and is omnipresent on Porsche forums. To resume, expert, professional and Formula 1 drivers prefer 2WD because they want to use their brains to control the car and not a machine. One the other hand, people who live in bad weather constantly ie black ice territory and are not expert drivers want the added security of AWD; and they are willing to accept the inconveniences of AWD for that added perceived security. The problem is in the “perceived” security. And if a lot of AWD cars wind up in the ditch, it is because the drivers think they can do anything and everything…and they wind up in a ditch anyway.

In the Toyota world we are fortunate to have 4WD models so we can choose which mode we want to employ (2WD, 4W HIGH or. 4W LOW.) Choice is good. But the 2WD vs AWD is just a question of taste and it is absolutely not carved in stone that everyone will benefit from one or the other. Each to his own. Live and let live. etc etc

 

[jayp2]

This 2wd vs AWD debate is not a crazy one and it is very common on automotive forums, especially sport’s car forums and is omnipresent on Porsche forums. To resume, expert, professional and Formula 1 drivers prefer 2WD because they want to use their brains to control the car and not a machine. One the other hand, people who live in bad weather constantly ie black ice territory and are not expert drivers want the added security of AWD; and they are willing to accept the inconveniences of AWD for that added perceived security. The problem is in the “perceived” security. And if a lot of AWD cars wind up in the ditch, it is because the drivers think they can do anything and everything…and they wind up in a ditch anyway.

In the Toyota world we are fortunate to have 4WD models so we can choose which mode we want to employ. Choice is good. But the 2WD vs AWD is just a question of taste and it is absolutely not carved in stone that everyone will benefit from one or the other. Each to his own. Live and let live. etc etc

To be precise its a driver selected 2WD/4WD vs full time AWD discussion

Agree with you that choice is good

 

[malden]

In the Toyota world we are fortunate to have 4WD models so we can choose which mode we want to employ (2WD, 4W HIGH or. 4W LOW.) Choice is good. But the 2WD vs AWD is just a question of taste and it is absolutely not carved in stone that everyone will benefit from one or the other. Each to his own. Live and let live. etc etc

Corrected to be more precise.

 

[Rednexus]

The problem is in the “perceived” security. And if a lot of AWD cars wind up in the ditch, it is because the drivers think they can do anything and everything…and they wind up in a ditch anyway.

In the Toyota world we are fortunate to have 4WD models so we can choose which mode we want to employ (2WD, 4W HIGH or. 4W LOW.) Choice is good. But the 2WD vs AWD is just a question of taste and it is absolutely not carved in stone that everyone will benefit from one or the other. Each to his own. Live and let live. etc etc

For me it has nothing to do with security, it's drastically better traction when taking off on a steep hill on wet pavement, driving up a hill with loose gravel and washboards, or driving on a snow/ice covered road. This has been apparent when overlanding with my buddy who has a Tundra - he really struggles on loose/washboard gravel hills while I fly right up them.

For Toyotas in particular I'd argue that the part-time TC with the ADD is a more failure-prone system than the full-time AWD with the differential lock. People swap GX transfer cases into Tacomas for this reason. There is really zero if any added complexity for a much more versatile system.

@jayp2, have you ever actually owned an AWD vehicle? I don't' think that question has been answered.

 

[M1911]

I learned to drive in a 1969 Ford Falcon with manual steering, unassisted 4-wheel drum brakes, and an automatic transmission. I then drove manual transmission RWD cars for years (1978 Trans Am, 1980 Toyota Corolla), first in Chicago, then central NY, and then in Boston. I've got plenty of experience driving RWD, FWD, and AWD cars in snow. I remember one time driving home 5 miles in the snow in a 1972 Capri, holding the back out of line the entire way just for fun.

In those old RWD cars there was no traction control, no ABS, no spin control, no nothing. On a snowy day, you were reminded constantly of how slippery it was. Press the gas too hard (or just let the clutch out too abruptly) and the rear tires just spun. The advantage is that you always knew how little traction you had. The disadvantage is that if you had to stop while going up a hill, you were stuffed -- you would have to back down the hill and try again. I remember one time in the snow when I couldn't get my Trans Am moving on a flat road with a large crown -- just letting the clutch out at idle caused the rears to spin and the tail of the car to slip towards the curb.

AWD helps you go, but it doesn't help you corner or stop. The AWD system in the Land Cruiser is quite effective. Effective enough that you can easily not realize just how little traction you have, so you get overconfident. Any time I'm driving in snow, the first thing I do is on a straight bit of road with no one behind me I do a panic stop. This shows me just how bad my braking traction is.

Given my experience, I prefer modern AWD vehicles over RWD, FWD, or part-time 4WD in snow. YMMV.

 

[jayp2]

@jayp2, have you ever actually owned an AWD vehicle? I don't' think that question has been answered.

See post 1647

 

[carboncycles]

This thread is perplexing with all the POVs being expressed. Sounds like a battle of first world problems...

 

[Jetboy]

The sequoia had the best transfer case option of any Toyota SUV. It had every option. RWD, AWD, locked 4x4. The only thing it was missing was a rear disconnect for front digs.

I never found any want for awd in my 5th gen. I would not trade awd for not having rwd option. But it would be nice to have both like the sequoia and 3rd gen 4Runners (not sure if the 4th gen had an awd with rear wheel drive option). In my Tundra - the scrub in parking lots is a lot worse and a center transfer case for winter would be nice. Not sure I'd trade it for the rwd option, but maybe.

Unfortunately - I don't think there are any heavy duty center differential transfer cases. My guess is that is why the new sequoia and Tundra don't have an option. None of the domestic "awd" type systems have a center diff that I know of.

Also - new Tacoma also gets awd transfer case option. So the 4Runner will almost certainly get awd in some models.

 

[jayp2]

This thread is perplexing with all the POVs being expressed. Sounds like a battle of first world problems...

Lots of us just want a third world version of a new land cruiser

 

[carboncycles]

Lots of us just want a third world version of a new land cruiser

You can (and I'd kill for one...the 550 is probably the closest we [folks who live in 1st world countries] are going to get that is factory built/supported and is made in Japan. Also why I have a deposit down on one)...just have to leave most first world countries. Toyota does what Toyota does...it tries to satisfy their stock holders by maximizing profits while minimizing costs.

Not sure why a bunch of folks arguing on the internet is going to really change their minds.

Mods should change this thread to the "musings of a bunch of misanthropic luddites arguing why a publicly traded company continues to hurt my feelings"

 

[M1911]

Lots Some of us just want a third world version of a new land cruiser

FIxed it for you.