I really think you should wait for a 4Runner or 250 Land Cruiser to start comparing to a Bronco. I just don't think a GX is even meant to compete with the Bronco.
2024 GX/Prado Release and Discussion (2 Viewers)
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A front Harrop e-locker can be added for ~$2500 from ECGS and a simple front differential swap (assuming the GX550 uses a Toyota parts bin front differential). For most folks who are going to really use the rig offroad anyway, they are going to modify it and probably not use it stock/as-is. The lead Toyota engineer for the new Tacoma flat out said this - their R&D budget was limited, so they focused on a front swaybar disconnect instead of a front locker, as they are so easy to get aftermarket. To me this is not a detraction, if someone is going to drop $65K+ on a new rig they can drop $2500 more on a front locker. Just like swapping out crappy factory tires for better one.
100-series folks should be just adding a front locker. I'm going to add both on my 470 next year. For me, my rigs are very personal, and I'd much rather build/customize one myself rather than buy something that's pre-built at the factory.
More preview of LC to reveal in Fall. Comparing the center of wheel to bumpers and running boards, it looks a bit higher than the 550.
NOT this:
No mention of TTV6. Possible Diesel? and same TT4 hybrid the 550 will get. The timing of the release makes sense.
NOT this:
No mention of TTV6. Possible Diesel? and same TT4 hybrid the 550 will get. The timing of the release makes sense.
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Bronco boys are in shambles if that's what we get as the LC. An uglier stripped down GX? Maybe they'll do a GR-S edition with front locker at least.
I'm familiar with adding lockers, I've added two to my 100 series. Swapping tires isn't quite the same as installing a locker in a new 70-80K vehicle under warranty though. There's clearly demand for capability out of the box without having to start dropping diffs, re-gearing, and modifying the diffs while the vehicle is still under warranty reference the Rubicon, Raptors, various pickups from Chevy, and Broncos some of which the companies can't seem to make fast enough.
Also I listened to that video twice, he didn't say the lack of front locker was due to lack of R&D money. That wouldn't make a ton of sense to me, lockers are well understood, not that complicated and toyota already supplies them in various vehicles in various configurations. What he indicated was he could give you a "pseudo locker" that didn't have the downsides of a locker and was more "affordable" for you, not for him. Which seems silly to me on a truck at that price. Seems like toyota is very proud of their MTS and thinks that's better for you than a locker.
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Pretty good chance that is close to what we see for the Global Prado later this fall but I don't think that is what we are going to get here in America for our LC. Truth is nobody really knows anything and everyone is sharing bits of info they stumble across or find online via car "journalists", youtube, etc. that they want or choose to believe is accurate. I am not any different in that regard, just that I choose not to believe this and instead believe someone else's information.
That being said following the release of the GX550 I am starting to buy in to that other rumor that has been mentioned over the last couple of years which is that the North American LC is going to be something new and unique to compete against Wranglers and Broncos. It will look closer to a combination of these two than the Prado images shared above. Just remove the 4Runner cues and replace them with things like retro FJ40/70 bits. Think round head lights, maybe removable top? 2 & 4 door options? Nobody knows and nothing really reliable has come out about those types of details. If the latest roosters clucking are correct we will know all later this fall/winter when this thing debuts.
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Lockers are well understood but need to be validated by an OEM, while swaybar disconnects sometimes simply can't be added due to packaging etc. So that's where they spent the money on, and why the Taco doesn't get a factory front locker option but does get a front sway disconnect. At least that's how I understood it.
Not sure how this would be possible unless a complete EV MINI LC. the drivetrain is longer than both vehicles shown LOL.
I agree with you that the GX isn't really a Bronco/Wrangler model. I really like the GX and can't wait to see it and drive it in person. The only real qualm I have is 17mpg unless it has a 40 gallon tank. I guess I could probably haul extra fuel in a few cans. I'm not so concerned about the width. But maybe I'll change my mind. I think the specs are not representing how wide it is in the same measurements. I don't think it'll be wider than a Sequoia. Something is missing in the comparison I think.
Sequoia 3rd row: (Just as side note - look at the poor quality fit and finish in the sequoia, the seat sides don't line up at the front edge and you can see that the leather material isn't a nice curve and tightly fit around the foam. I found the same issues only worse in the Tundra I drove and decided not to buy. It's un-toyota like. It looks like something I'd sew up in my basement - and I'm not very good at it.
vs GX550 third row: (note on these - they look horribly uncomfortable. But they're really just a platform for a child safety seat I think. So in that respect - they're just what they need to be I think.
I think both sides of this argument are mostly arguing past each other and probably mostly in agreement. Toyota absolutely should build a GX that is what the GX is - a vehicle that's a balance of a lot of different stuff. It hauls, tows, and cruises comfortably on the highway for long distances. And it's built for 95% of miles on the road, that can also go off road for 5% of the time with confidence and capability. Out of the miles I put on my 4Runner - easily 95% were highway miles. That's one of the reasons re-geared and then swapped back to OEM gearing. I spend more time on the highway than on the dirt. It's the right vehicle for that job. It tows, it hauls, it shuttled kids to soccer (that was my problem ultimately - it wasn't big enough for the second kid and a dog and a stroller) And it can still run the Rubicon. But I'm not doing that every day. And I have my FJ40 for playing in the really hard stuff. These products exist on a spectrum and the GX and 4Runner cover a wide range of that spectrum of uses.
What I think some of us would like to see is a different vehicle in addition to the GX/4R that is further toward the off road end with more compromises to the highway performance. And I don't think that needs to be to the exclusion of the GX/4Runner vehicle. Those exist and should continue. What doesn't make a lot of sense is to have 4 of the same thing and zero of the other. One of the 4R or new LC should be a cheaper GX. Absolutely. But the other one - it can be something different.
The Bronco is a great data point on what the demand is. And I don't think it has much to do with nostalgia buyers. If it were the same exact vehicle build by Kia, it would sell just as well. I'd actually be more inclined to buy it. It's the Ford part that's kept it out of my driveway so far. And I think the same on the Toyota side. Not many people outside of this forum care if it says "land cruiser" on the back. If the hardware and value are there - people will buy it. And the Sequoia will only sell around 15-20k units per year. If the math makes sense for the Sequoia - I have a hard time seeing why it doesn't for an enthusiast model. The biggest issue I see is that we may be near the end of the "overland" fad (I hope so) and Toyota is so late to the party it might have already missed it.
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That has to due with a weak pinion in the early 100 series which a locker strengthened. Nothing to do with the locker itself. Toyota corrected that issue in latter year 100 series with a stronger pinion
Didn't want to give us that tool or make it more reliable? Just curious if you have a lot of wheeling experience with and without a locker. I think you over estimate its value. But hey everyone has a personal preference and I will admit both my 200 and 40 have F/R lockers. Never once engaged the front on the 40 though. I installed it because I was rebuilding the diff and while I was in there
At worst case, you can always install an aftermarket locker. If you are willing to spend $$$ on a vehicle and then $$ to modify it with armor, then the cost of a locker is small potatoes, at least in my opinion. I am not disregarding your opinion, just saying everyone's truth is different.
I bought my 200 series in Jan 2016 with 25K miles for $52K and spent more than $20K in accessories and have wheeled the crap out of it since.
I bought my first Land Cruiser in 1979 and have many since then. One of the best was my Lexus LX450 which did great on the Rubicon in 2008. The Lexus badge doesn't bother me
I also broke a front axle because of the locker on the LX450 on Kane Creek Waterfall
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Yes, I understand what the weak point was. The irony is in the toyota engineer saying they don't want to give you a locker for fear of you breaking things on the Tacoma but in the 100 series if they had given us a locker we wouldn't have broken things.
Interesting that there doesn't seem to be a huge pile up of broken Rubicons, Raptors, Broncos etc with front lockers though.
I'd like an OEM option for the quality both on the parts and the install.
I usually build my own diffs. I can eventually put together a very good pattern, and I'm meticulous about it. But a lot of aftermarket shops are not. And even if they are, you still have aftermarket hardware that is hit or miss. Re-gearing and adding a locker in a front clamshell toyota is not a nominal task for a DIY. It's a HUGE PITA to me vs the classic third member design. Setting pinion depth alone is half a day long process for me to get it dialed in. And Toyota can do it with interferometry measurements that are perfect every time in one shot. No guessing. No paint marks. Just having the right tools for a perfect gear setup the first time. On top of that, I got to do it a few times in my 2015 4R thanks to ARB issues. ARB even paid for one of the swaps at their shop. The forged spider gears are just noisy and either live with it or swap out was the final conclusion. I chose not to put the 3rd ARB locker in and went back to an open diff. For me it was a lot of hours I'd rather not have to deal with when Toyota has the parts in the bin and could just install one OEM for a few hundred dollars more.
I'd even be cool with Toyota just offering an aftermarket complete Diff with locker setup at a reasonable price that was a bolt in swap.
MTS is really good. I can't argue with that. The places it doesn't work so well is anywhere you want to give it a lot of throttle and keep all 4 spinning - sandy hill climbs and muddy areas, and in low speed snow. Those are the situations where the front locker is significantly better than MTS/ATRAC to me. The rest of the time MTS/ATRAC is great as tuned in the 5th gen 4Runner. In my Tundra it's crap. It doesn't work well at all. It's far too mild.
sigh . . . . . It sure would be nice if they included a front locker
This is a great video and one eye opener is articulation has been increased by 4.3" from the 460 to the 550 - that's astounding!
The video is great. The new eKDSS looks a ton better than the old Prado/GX/4R version I call KDSS lite. The LC200 version was pretty good as well. The old KDSS lite was great on the highway, but harsh in the mid-speed rough stuff. It needed the second front cylinder to balance it out.
The other big change is the kingpin offset change. That should make clearing larger tires a lot easier and reduce road feedback. And more caster has been another big issue forever. So this is a big improvement in front geometry. My rough guess is OEM will now be around 5* of caster. Hopefully it also eliminates the notorious 65mph shimmy that's been an issue forever.
The other big change is the kingpin offset change. That should make clearing larger tires a lot easier and reduce road feedback. And more caster has been another big issue forever. So this is a big improvement in front geometry. My rough guess is OEM will now be around 5* of caster. Hopefully it also eliminates the notorious 65mph shimmy that's been an issue forever.
Some of this depends on where and how you wheel though. I dont have a ton of experience on big rocks, that's not a native species where I live. We have mud, more mud, and clay here. And nothing beats a locker in thick gumbo mud when you need wheel spin and any traction you can find. I'm not disputing that people can break CVs off road when using a front locker, but how common is that and how common should that be.That has to due with a weak pinion in the early 100 series which a locker strengthened. Nothing to do with the locker itself. Toyota corrected that issue in latter year 100 series with a stronger pinion
Didn't want to give us that tool or make it more reliable? Just curious if you have a lot of wheeling experience with and without a locker. I think you over estimate its value. But hey everyone has a personal preference and I will admit both my 200 and 40 have F/R lockers. Never once engaged the front on the 40 though. I installed it because I was rebuilding the diff and while I was in there
At worst case, you can always install an aftermarket locker. If you are willing to spend $$$ on a vehicle and then $$ to modify it with armor, then the cost of a locker is small potatoes, at least in my opinion. I am not disregarding your opinion, just saying everyone's truth is different.
I bought my 200 series in Jan 2016 with 25K miles for $52K and spent more than $20K in accessories and have wheeled the crap out of it since.
I bought my first Land Cruiser in 1979 and have many since then. One of the best was my Lexus LX450 which did great on the Rubicon in 2008. The Lexus badge doesn't bother me
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I also broke a front axle because of the locker on the LX450 on Kane Creek Waterfall
Per my pervious comment - most people aren't buying Raptors, ZR2s, and Jeeps due to a front locker. People are buying them as an image/status symbol, the front locker (or lack thereof) are immaterial and many of them don't understand the function and will probably never engage it. While I am sure some folks are buying the Jeep/Bronco for the F&R lockers, but they are vastly outnumbered by folks who are going to use the well-outfitted 4X4 as a mall-crawler and kid-hauler.
I certainly understand the concern with voiding the warranty on adding a locker to a new, expensive rig. However, taking the rig somewhere where you need any kind of locker, particularly a front locker, results in a higher risk of breaking something, getting body damage, etc, thereby damaging the vehicle (which I am sure is listed as a warranty exclusion anyway). Which is why I will never buy a new, expensive 4x4 to start with and will add lockers to my 16-year old GX instead.
The bigger detraction with the Bronco/Jeep is that they have poor NVH due to hardtop and a pathetic towing capacity. Again, NBD for an off-road focused rig but a main detraction for folks who are going to actually use the rig as a multi-purpose tool (which is where the GX really excels).
But...for the record....yes I do wish that Toyota offered OEM front lockers! It's just not a deal killer for me when buying a 4x4 (new or used). And the presence of the front locker on the Jeep/Bronco don't make up for the lack of versatility and reliability compared to a 4Runner/GX.
This
Also while a rear locker is certainly a "nice to have" for someone like me who "soft roads" I have only engaged the rear on the 4R on a couple of occasions and that was to get out of some serious mud holes. Personally I don't think I would ever find myself in a position where I would need a locker on the front. Also I think back to that one time many moons ago when I test drove a Wrangler and then more recently a Gladiator and thought to myself "these ride like 
" due in large part to the solid front axle.
" due in large part to the solid front axle.My initial point was several manufactures chose to give us that option while toyota chose not to. I'm not really that interested in the psychology of buying a vehicle with a front locker and if someone will really use it, that's highly debatable. Now I guess you could be making the argument that the other manufacturers are taking a calculated risk that bc people won't use their front lockers, then they likely won't end up with a bunch of repairs or warranty claims? That would be interesting.
The argument seems to be that Toyota isn't giving us front lockers bc they A) think we will break things and either don't want to design for it, or don't want to have to deal with warranty/repair issues B) Think MTS is sufficient, C) Don't think we'll actually use it, D) Don't think we actually need it or a combination of these.
Either way, my point is, they have responded differently than other manufacturers to the question front locker availability by not giving you the option. For those of us who have added lockers, I can't imagine someone would claim they would not have preferred this was done at the factory for an incremental price increase.
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