2013 dies repeatedly while driving down the road

[chemguys]

Great tastes!

To me it is the perfect two vehicle combination. The landcruiser does family hauling, long distance travel and commuter type duties; it tows the utility trailer, boat or car trailer; and is a great all around people and stuff hauler. The porsches couldn't be more different, and are just sublime for the fun stuff whether it is a quick run to town, a rip through the mountains or time on a track.

Yes! Great combination. Transitioning from the Porsche to the LC is similar to getting into one of those air boats they use in the Everglades.

 

[CharlieS]

I’m guessing much overlap with >07 tundra 5.7
Second link is more relevant.

Another bad fuel pump - truck won't stay started

Checked the relays, checked for spark (it's good), new battery, sprayed some starter fluid in the intake, fires up then dies. I can hear my fuel pump spin up with the key on but clearly the fuel isn't going anywhere else. Could it be something other than the pump? Needing to get this fixed...

www.tundratalk.net

This post is interesting but doesn’t include images.

The Toyota Fuel Pump Control ECU Function | Identifix

L1 Master Tech Joe Masterman shows you how Toyota Fuel Pump ECU's work and how to turn any difficult mechanical diagnosis into a learning opportunity.

www.identifix.com

Thanks. That first one is similar. They say in that article, and I can confirm, that the FSM diagnostics say to test the wire harness and connector, if that passes, replace the Fuel Pump Controller ECU.

I've read that second link three different times (I googled it up, you shared it and someone else did too), and while it seems similar, I can't figure out how to use the information to inform my own diagnostics.

 

[TonyP]

This is an excellent thread. I do enjoy a group coming together to fix a problem. Rare on this forum. Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Wish I had more info to help.

 

[indycole]

Here's some stuff to monitor on the ECM...

 

[CharlieS]

Here's some stuff to monitor on the ECM...

Thanks! A ton of great information in that document. I may have to learn more about oscilloscopes and waveforms...

I've removed the Fuel Pump Control ECU and have it set up for a bench test. I've got things set up with what I think should work based on the wiring diagrams, but applying varying voltage to the terminal that would get a signal from the ECM doesn't change the output signal to the pump (a steady 9.85 V +/- 0.01 V is on the terminal to what would be the fuel pump, whenever the FPC ECU gets power and ground).

I expect the power out of the FPC ECU to the fuel pump to be variable based on observations with the multimeter while the fuel pump was running with the engine going.

Maybe that input needs to be a variable waveform rather than a variable voltage? I'M WAY out of my depth if it is... Someone previously mentioned a waveform generator - I don't even know what that is...

Any indication or experience with what kind of signal comes out of ECM pin 52? The wiring diagram has a circled A by the number 52 where it comes off the ECM. I believe this is A38-52.

PS. Despite some wiring diagrams showing a diagnostic/feedback signal (DI) between the ECM and the FPC ECU (A38-18 and N2-4), there is no such wire or terminals in either connector. They are clearly plugged from the factory with no pins in them. This may be for the prior (pre-2013) system. 2013 on went to a continuously variable pump, whereas prior years had three speeds.

 

[indycole]

Maybe that input needs to be a variable waveform rather than a variable voltage? I'M WAY out of my depth if it is... Someone previously mentioned a waveform generator - I don't even know what that is...

Any indication or experience with what kind of signal comes out of ECM pin 52? The wiring diagram has a circled A by the number 52 where it comes off the ECM. Is this A38-52?

According to the FSM, there are a couple notable signals between the ECM and the Fuel Pump ECU: 1.) the control signal (FPC) which ranges from 0 to 12v with a varying duty cycle and 2.) the diagnostic signal (DI) which also varies from 0 to 12v. You'll find corresponding labels on both schematics. A particular DTC related to fuel issues mentions this regarding the two signals:

"To monitor the fuel pump circuit, the ECM checks the fuel pump control signal (FPC) and diagnostic signal (DI). The FPC voltage varies between approximately 0 V to approximately 12 V (duty signal). Based on the condition of the fuel pump ECU malfunction, the DI voltage varies between approximately 0 V and approximately 12 V. The ECM then compares the variance of the FPC voltage and DI voltage, and determines if the fuel pump circuit is malfunctioning. When the ECM determines that the fuel pump circuit is malfunctioning, a DTC is stored immediately."

The fuel circuit document also clarifies that the ECM creates a waveform based on the calculated fuel pump speed needed to maintain the engine output.

"The fuel pump circuit consists of the ECM, fuel pump and fuel pump ECU (which operates the fuel pump). Based on the engine output, the ECM determines the fuel pump speed. The speed is then converted to a duty signal and sent to the fuel pump ECU. Based on the signal sent from the ECM, the fuel pump ECU adjusts the fuel pump operation speed between 3 settings."

The trouble is that I can't find any documentation that provides guidance on the duty signal, which means that even if you were able to find and measure the waveform you'd have no way to know if it's correct. I suppose it'd be interesting if there was no structure to the signal at all which would indicate an issue with the ECM or fuel pump ECU. This also means there wouldn't be much benefit to driving the fuel pump ECU with a function generator because there are no specifications on what the input signal should look like.

Toyota techs may be able to learn more but you've already looked at all the steps in the FSM aside from replacing the integration relay, the C/OPN relay, the ECM, and the fuel pump ECU. Not saying I'd jump to replacing expensive parts or anything... personally, I'd do another around of sanity checking around continuity. I could see something like a broken wire in this so-called diagnostic signal causing some problems.

 

[CharlieS]

Indycole -

I added this above, but am pasting it again, since it is relevant to the post you made:

"Despite some wiring diagrams showing a diagnostic/feedback signal (DI) between the ECM and the FPC ECU (A38-18 and N2-4), there is no such wire or terminals in either connector. They are clearly plugged from the factory with no pins in them. This may be for the prior (pre-2013) system. 2013 on went to a continuously variable pump, whereas prior years had three speeds."

In terms of throwing parts at it, I have a used integration relay (allegedly good) that just arrived this afternoon, and today I ordered a new Fuel Pump Controller ECU (will ship Wednesday). Nobody has it in stock and the local dealer wanted $100 more (!) than Olathe Toyota, which is my current go-to for Toyota parts.

I haven't given up on diagnostics, and will continue testing.

I haven't covered much ground on the ECM MREL signal to the integration relay that eventually sends battery power to the FPC ECU, and I need to dig in a bit there. A failure in that circuit could cause simultaneous fuel pump and injection stoppage. Fingers crossed that it isn't the bloody ECM.

I've stumbled into a few places where the FSM has bad tests (like the above A38-18 and N2-4 tests), which end up sending me down rabbit holes.

I REALLY want to solve this...

 

[indycole]

Indycole -

I added this above, but am pasting it again, since it is relevant to the post you made:

"Despite some wiring diagrams showing a diagnostic/feedback signal (DI) between the ECM and the FPC ECU (A38-18 and N2-4), there is no such wire or terminals in either connector. They are clearly plugged from the factory with no pins in them. This may be for the prior (pre-2013) system. 2013 on went to a continuously variable pump, whereas prior years had three speeds."

In terms of throwing parts at it, I have a used integration relay (allegedly good) that just arrived this afternoon, and today I ordered a new Fuel Pump Controller ECU (will ship Wednesday). Nobody has it in stock and the local dealer wanted $100 more (!) than Olathe Toyota, which is my current go-to for Toyota parts.

I haven't given up on diagnostics, and will continue testing.

I haven't covered much ground on the ECM MREL signal to the integration relay that eventually sends battery power to the FPC ECU, and I need to dig in a bit there. A failure in that circuit could cause simultaneous fuel pump and injection stoppage. Fingers crossed that it isn't the bloody ECM.

I've stumbled into a few places where the FSM has bad tests (like the above A38-18 and N2-4 tests), which end up sending me down rabbit holes.

I REALLY want to solve this...

That's a really interesting catch re: the FSM differences. I have the pre-2013 copy that I use for general stuff but tend to do a short subscription to TIS when I have something involved going on because there are a lot of differences on the 16+ as well... especially on the electrical side. Do you have access to the FSM for your model year via TIS or some other source?

 

[CharlieS]

That's a really interesting catch re: the FSM differences. I have the pre-2013 copy that I use for general stuff but tend to do a short subscription to TIS when I have something involved going on because there are a lot of differences on the 16+ as well... especially on the electrical side. Do you have access to the FSM for your model year via TIS or some other source?

Yes, I have both the 2013 version of the FSM as PDFs from TIS and a 1 year subscription to Alldata for the 2013 landcruiser.

The fuel supply system changed over to the continuously variable pump in '13, and is the same for '13-'14. The FPC ECU for the '13 has been superceeded by the part number for the newer landcruiser (part from my '13 is 89571-60030 and the new number is 89571-60060). Based on this, I assume the '13 to '18 (and current?) use the same fuel delivery system.

If I'm not getting them jumbled with the PDFs I've gotten from other sources (which I may be), the manuals I have access to have these errors, and I suspect it is because this was a transition year.

 

[CharlieS]

So it is running without stalling.

And I don't know why...

I've been testing components, fuses, relays, wiring, etc. all day, and nothing changed - it still stalled out after a minute of idling each time.

I took a break to grab a drink of water, and while I did, I started googling tundra stalling, to see if they have any similarities. I came across a thread about immobilizers, and thought: what the heck, let's see if my spare fob changes the behavior.

So I go out and start the landcruiser with my spare fob on the console, and what do you know, it started right up and idled for over 5 minutes before I shut it down with the ignition button.

Thinking that I'd found some wierd fob/immobilizer issue, I put the backup fob in the house and tried with my primary fob. Well, dang it all, now the vehicle runs fine with this fob too. I let it run for 5 minutes, and swapped again. With the backup fob it runs as long as I let it... and back and forth a couple of times like this.

What. The. Feck.???

Any theories?

 

[Sandroad]

Ack! And that's all I have to offer.........

Well, not actually, I have one idea. With the Honda Clarity PHEV, some members of a forum I participate in for that vehicle have discovered that sometimes their car will stop charging with an aftermarket EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment). The fix is to plug in the Honda EVSE, even briefly, then the aftermarket one will work again. The key is to reset the vehicle charging electronics with a manufacturer EVSE, then anything will work again. I'm sure both of your fobs were EOM Toyota, but the analogy is that using the other fob, even briefly, reset something in the immobilizer electronics or first fob that got screwed up (to use technical terminology).

 

[Romer]

Only thing I can think of is one of your last components you moved or removed/replaced could have an issue. Did you verify the stall after you put the last relay or whatever back in?

It 's the only thing I can think of

 

[CharlieS]

Only thing I can think of is one of your last components you moved or removed/replaced could have an issue. Did you verify the stall after you put the last relay or whatever back in?

It 's the only thing I can think of

Yes, I did. Bizarre, eh?

 

[bloc]

Not knowing why the problem is fixed is almost worse than it continuing.

 

[RET2]

Happy for you !!

 

[SWUtah]

You’re starting to understand that LX and land cruisers are self healing vehicles I’ve run into this type of thing before with my 100 series 5 of them and 2 200 series

 

[CharlieS]

Ack! And that's all I have to offer.........

Well, not actually, I have one idea. With the Honda Clarity PHEV, some members of a forum I participate in for that vehicle have discovered that sometimes their car will stop charging with an aftermarket EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment). The fix is to plug in the Honda EVSE, even briefly, then the aftermarket one will work again. The key is to reset the vehicle charging electronics with a manufacturer EVSE, then anything will work again. I'm sure both of your fobs were EOM Toyota, but the analogy is that using the other fob, even briefly, reset something in the immobilizer electronics or first fob that got screwed up (to use technical terminology).

I like this theory. I want to believe it. I just don't know enough about the immobilizer system to feel good about it as the reason for the stalling. It seems like the immobilizer system is more involved with preventing starting.

Intermittent failures and unexplained resolutions are two things that are hard to deal with.

For now, I'm happy that things seem to be back to normal. I'll try to be content with that.

I just have to hope this doesn't crop up again, because I don't know what, if anything, I did to resolve it.

 

[Romer]

Yet, what you learned about the fuel system is priceless and we learned along with you, thank you for that. This was a good thread. You showed dedication to finding the problem and the community did the best they could to help you. In that sense alone, this is a good story.

 

[TeCKis300]

Too weird. For all the improvements that technology and sophistication brings, and even the part I do in an engineering company in the name of "progress"

Sometimes I long for the simpler days...

Kudos for sticking with it and working it out.

 

[CSteppe82]

I’ll finally be able to sleep tonight