200-series Pinnacle of "Land Cruiser" in the States? (2 Viewers)

[bicycleagent003]

That was a big turning point, EFI, auto, pretty standardized PW/PL's.

This question comes up at the museum nearly every time I do a tour. One could argue the entire wagon families were aimed at the segment buying those, think FJ55 power rear window. One could argue it was the IFS of the 100 that kicked off the revolution. Others think it's the 200. History according to 'enthusiasts' will say they ruined the newest one, until there is a newest one.

Kurt, your experience and perspective are highly valued here. Thank you.
Would you kindly share your thoughts on the durability and long term reliability of the AHC system in the LX570, particularly off-road? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to know what you have seen and experienced in that regard.

 

[Devils Paw 80]

200 series is likely to be the "pinnacle" if strictly evaluated by dimensional size, weight and engine displacement.
After growing in size over each successive generation to date, it appears that the next N. American LC will be slightly smaller and a significantly more fuel efficient vehicle.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Kurt, your experience and perspective are highly valued here. Thank you.
Would you kindly share your thoughts on the durability and long term reliability of the AHC system in the LX570, particularly off-road? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to know what you have seen and experienced in that regard.

It's really too early to tell, the number of LX570 setup being used off-road is quite low in the grand scheme. For those that are/do use them, we are not seeing any crazy failures, i.e. no more/less than we were seeing with the LX470. Many are jaded towards the AHC because of a bad experience with a GX or perhaps Land Rover air bag AHC type system that will leave you on the bumpstops if you have a failure. That doesn't quite happen with the LX570/200 AHC, they still have a traditional coil spring. I will say, I personally prefer the standard suspension because I build my vehicles heavy, more specifically they end up heavy. The stock AHC system really struggles with the added weight. We have had good results swapping higher spring rate coils on LX570's and will continue to play with that.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

200 series is likely to be the "pinnacle" if strictly evaluated by dimensional size, weight and engine displacement.
After growing in size over each successive generation to date, it appears that the next N. American LC will be slightly smaller and a significantly more fuel efficient vehicle.

True.

While I can't comment on the motor package Toyota may or may not use in vehicle they are just now publicly teasing... I can say the TTV6 found in the LX600 and GX550 is a monster. The stock (lift/wheels & tires) LX600 we have here edges the URJ200 in 'peppy-ness' imo. Not by miles but it feels good.

 

[chriscosta416]

I use my AHC offroad and it works well. The system is not really complicated once you have techstream. The learning curve is what seems intimidating.

Rust would be the biggest factor in a working vs non working AHC system.

 

[Tex68w]

the next N. American LC will be slightly smaller and a significantly more fuel efficient vehicle.

Hah! Highly doubtful on that last part. You use the word "significantly" loosely I suppose.

 

[TeCKis300]

Typical revisionist LC history imo.

I was into Cruisers when the 80 was still sold new, it's paper specs against competitors was no different than today. 40 & 60 owners were completely critical of EFI engines, coil suspension, the bubbly looks, leather, power everything, etc. The same happened for the 100, the same happened for the 200... and here we are with folks calling the last one the "Pinnacle of "Land Cruiser" in the States?". Hardly shocking.

We race a 200/570 in the stock class of the Baja 1000. Stock control arms, stock diffs, stock CV's, stock steering rack, stock engine, trans, t-case, etc. The chassis (100% stock, no reinforcement allowed) is extremely stalwart and we have phenomenal parts life out of those very stock components. The Canguro rig has 30-35? desert races under it's belt, zero work to the motor, trans or t-case. There is a 0% chance an 80 would survive the same type of off-road conditions for a few races let along 30-35. I love the 60, 70, 80, etc, drive and own them all and they shine in the right places. But to say the 200 is "so far from the.... ruggeness" and "just a marketing name now" is quite laughable. Get out and spend some time around the world. The 200's pretty well known for it's ability to go all the same places the 80, 100 and 200 go... with a bit more speed and capacity.

I'll offer another data point. We drove Land Cruisers around the world through some of the most austere conditions and routes, Canning Stock Route, Skeleton Coast, Road of Bones in Russia, etc. The VDJ7x fleet we had was fantastic and left us wanting for little. We often discuss what we would do differently and what vehicle we would take if we could do it again... a near unanimous vote for the 200 Series. Many of us were/are 200 owners now. I love the 7x but the 200 is that much faster, comfortable, spacious... oh and would have no problem going all the same places we drove the 7x's. I still love the 7x and enjoy traveling in my own but it's not the end-all Land Cruiser.



Yes, true. But it's not "my knuckles are falling off", "my axles are leaking", "my head gasket is blown", "my Cruiser can't do the speed limit up Parley's" or "my frame is cracked at the panhard or steering box" They all have their issues, the 200's just let us be picky about them.

Well said. Thank you for sharing the history lesson with great perspective and context.

Something is different this time around that makes me say the 200-series may be a relative pinnacle for "Land Cruiser", at least in the states. The 300-series based LC is increasingly looking like it's not in the cards for the US market. You may know more with inside info, but it seems the LC is going down market. Taking its rightful place as the top dog in Toyota's lineup, but postured below big daddy LC that lives on physically in the LX600 and perhaps even below the GX550 in spec?

What's in a name anyways? It potentially will be a great time to be in the market with such diversified SUV options from Toyota. Time will tell.

 

[onemanarmy]

Revisionist history? I don't think so.

Do leaf springs ride harsher than coils? Yep. Are 7x series awesome? You bet!

The trend with the 200 and 300 series sure isn't to continue with what made the LC name famous and recognized around the world. It for sure isn't getting cheaper, simpler, more reliable, or easier for the backyard/bush mechanic to work on.

I use my AHC offroad and it works well. The system is not really complicated once you have techstream. The learning curve is what seems intimidating.

Rust would be the biggest factor in a working vs non working AHC system.

This for example....yes, while we all have our wants and likes and desires....needing a computer program to diagnose and work on a 'Land Cruiser' suspension is not part of the original ethos and goes against everything simple, rugged, and reliable. This is my argument (along with many other things) why I say it peaked with the 80 series. Maybe earlier.

Well said. Thank you for sharing the history lesson with great perspective and context.

Something is different this time around that makes me say the 200-series may be a relative pinnacle for "Land Cruiser", at least in the states. The 300-series based LC is increasingly looking like it's not in the cards for the US market. You may know more with inside info, but it seems the LC is going down market. Taking its rightful place as the top dog in Toyota's lineup, but postured below big daddy LC that lives on physically in the LX600 and perhaps even below the GX550 in spec?

What's in a name anyways? It potentially will be a great time to be in the market with such diversified SUV options from Toyota. Time will tell.

Exactly...its just a name now, for marketing purposes.

Same with the 'mustang' mach-e and the new 'defender'. Maybe 1% related to the original nameplate but in reality is a completley new vehicle with a familair marketing name.

 

[bicycleagent003]

It's really too early to tell, the number of LX570 setup being used off-road is quite low in the grand scheme. For those that are/do use them, we are not seeing any crazy failures, i.e. no more/less than we were seeing with the LX470. Many are jaded towards the AHC because of a bad experience with a GX or perhaps Land Rover air bag AHC type system that will leave you on the bumpstops if you have a failure. That doesn't quite happen with the LX570/200 AHC, they still have a traditional coil spring. I will say, I personally prefer the standard suspension because I build my vehicles heavy, more specifically they end up heavy. The stock AHC system really struggles with the added weight. We have had good results swapping higher spring rate coils on LX570's and will continue to play with that.

Thanks so much for that thoughtful response, Kurt. I'm going to be in the market for an LX570 soon and your insight is very helpful. Thanks for all you do for the Cruiser community.

 

[bloc]

Toyota owns the trademark, they can put the LC name on whatever they want.

And as it turns out a suspension telling you what’s wrong with it is a pretty decent trade off for what that suspension can do on road and trail… especially when considering how the vast majority of people actually paying for new land cruisers will use them. Keep in mind basically none of them work on their own cars, let alone demand the ability to do so with basic hand tools. As it is I’ve been traveling with techstream on a laptop for most of my 200 ownership even without AHC. If I did have it.. pretty convenient.

I’d say what Monica endures is a pretty solid endorsement of Toyota’s overall design philosophy here. Yeah, a clean 80 is a great rig. But a 200? Objectively better in a long list of metrics.

Pinnacle? That’s a personal decision.

 

[tbisaacs]

Get those computers out of my car!!!!!

 

[Devils Paw 80]

Hah! Highly doubtful on that last part. You use the word "significantly" loosely I suppose.

I'm just going with the given MPG numbers. The 200 is rated at 13/17 for city highway. LX 600 17/22. New Cruiser will be as good or better than the 600, right? So you're looking at a 30+% or greater improvement. This seems significant to me, especially when your baseline is fairly low.

I recall that Toyota touted the FZ-FE as more fuel efficient than the 3FE, yet when they got around to mentioning the figure it was merely 10%.

 

[Tex68w]

I'm just going with the given MPG numbers. The 200 is rated at 13/17 for city highway. LX 600 17/22. New Cruiser will be as good or better than the 600, right? So you're looking at a 30+% or greater improvement. This seems significant to me, especially when your baseline is fairly low.

I recall that Toyota touted the FZ-FE as more fuel efficient than the 3FE, yet when they got around to mentioning the figure it was merely 10%.

Possibly, it might hit those numbers and it might not. For example, when our 200 was new and stock we would hit 19mpg on the highway regularly, thats 2mpg better than posted. The inverse of that is shown with our stock 2022 GX460, we have never seen better than 16mpg under any circumstances even though the factory suggests 15/19 and we barely best the city numbers on the highway. The new Sequoia isn't doing any better than 17mpg in the real world and it's a hybrid. I'd love to see better fuel efficiency from a Toyota 4x4 but history isn't on its side there lol.

 

[bloc]

I'd love to see better fuel efficiency from a Toyota 4x4 but history isn't on its side there lol.

IMO it’s a function of the conservative tuning strategy. More fuel (to a point) and less spark = longer lasting engines.

 

[Tex68w]

IMO it’s a function of the conservative tuning strategy. More fuel (to a point) and less spark = longer lasting engines.

I'll always take reliability and longevity over fuel efficiency. If I cared about a few extra mpg's then I wouldn't be driving these things.

 

[bloc]

I'll always take reliability and longevity over fuel efficiency. If I cared about a few extra mpg's then I wouldn't be driving these things.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Supra Turbo]

capability, reliability, dependability, size, features, functionality, ruggedness, mod-ablity peaked with the 80 series.

Meh, depends how you look at it. One could argue 200 has peaked with capabilities in acceleration, handling, luxury amenities, features, towing, seating, V8, etc...

 

[LX Cruiser]

The 200 is just so good at so many things. It carries nearly twice as many people as my Tundra, is more comfortable, and can tow nearly the same load. You can daily it and use it for farm/property work with a trailer. You can pull a medium/large camper across the country with your family, drop it off at your campsite, and go explore trails all day. And you can do that for like 25 years with maybe a couple bigger ticket repairs if even that.

The 300 is so cool, but it seems to be an order of magnitude more complicated. I’m all for change and innovation, but when that innovation is driven in large part by ever-tightening restrictions, it makes me think that the long-term indestructibility that drew me to Toyota is going to take a hit.

 

[bloc]

Toyota has to play in the same market as everyone else. That they still have the baseline durability they do compared to the others, making them an outlier, says a lot about that market and ultimately what buyers are asking for. Yes they want quality, but it has to be at a price that is manageable and fold down steps would be nice too.

 

[Bullgump]

I'll give you that the turning point towards more luxury and comfort was the 100 Series, but aside from using it solely for an off-road vehicle I have no interest in ever owning an 80 Series again and that's said confidently after owning what most consider to be the ultimate 80. I am happy with my 200, it serves its purpose as a multi role platform while still being comfortable and reliable and usable as a daily when needed but a rock crawler it is not, even though some use them as such. Should I ever find myself in need of the ultimate off-road vehicle on 37's or larger with a sole use of tackling the gnarliest of terrain I'll likely be looking at something outside of the Toyota badge.

Yep and yep. In the last month, I've been told 3 or 4 times...when you are ready to sell, give me a call...nope, my death arrangement is to be burned up in it Viking style. Love this rig. And the wife, gets a GX every couple of years to mall crawl, rim scrape, door ding, grocery get, drive through street flooding, and drop crumbs in between seats and console. But every time, we are going places together she requests...Let's take the "Ghost" (the 200).