1fzfe vs 1hdFT/FTE

[Dragos80]

But it's not about the savings.
It's how it drives.
Nobody is crazy enough to throw $20k and hope to make it back at the pump.
What do we get in return when adding a turbo or a supercharger, or even a V8? Where is savings there?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go 400mi+ on a single tank and not having to worry about caring 2 or 3 gas can along?

 

[Red Merle]

But it's not about the savings.
It's how it drives.
Nobody is crazy enough to throw $20k and hope to make it back at the pump.
What do we get in return when adding a turbo or a supercharger, or even a V8? Where is savings there?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go 400mi+ on a single tank and not having to worry about caring 2 or 3 gas can along?

I like to get fresh gas in my rig as often as possible. I don't need that type of range though. I can get over 300 on a full tank and that is good enough to get to and most of the way back to all of the places that I go. You have to remember that we don't have the sweet trail systems up here. We drive to the edge of the places we travel, but you have to go by canoe or foot once you get there. Other than that, it's just a car camping and winter driving rig. If I am being honest, driving out west to spend two weeks driving around is too expensive for me to just do alone and nobody I know can get away from their families to do that type of trip with me.

The hassle of doing the swap doesn't make any of it worth it to me because I like the drive train that the truck has and I would rather spend my time exploring in the truck than working on it at this stage. I have a couple more big projects to do on it and then it will be ready to rock for a long time.

 

[TT33]

Have had the TRD charged motor and the 1HD-FT motor in the same rig. Also swapped over to the H151F. The rest of the truck is identical.

Miles driven with both motors is just about 25,000, with 8,000 towing a 3,000 pound trailer with the diesel.

The following numbers tell an interesting story.

MPG for 1FZ-FE with A343:

Average = 10.6
Best = 13.3

MPG for 1HD-FT with H151F:

Average = 18.3
Best = 24.8

And yes, the diesel makes a ton more torque.

Diesel makes more torque than supercharged 1fzfe? by factory data, torque is about same for stock motors, 275 vs 280, while hp, gas has 50 more. This is exactly what my question is----are the spec numbers not apples to apples? as in 280 torque in diesel is more than 280 torque in gas?

 

[inkpot]

A turbo diesel 1HD-FT is easier to increase performance on than a SC 1FZ?

 

[Heckraiser]

Diesel makes more torque than supercharged 1fzfe? by factory data, torque is about same for stock motors, 275 vs 280, while hp, gas has 50 more. This is exactly what my question is----are the spec numbers not apples to apples? as in 280 torque in diesel is more than 280 torque in gas?

I guess the answer is yes. If you're familiar with diesel motors, you probably know that you can't compare HP and Torque numbers on paper and consider them equivalent. A 150hp diesel feels way stronger on a calibrated butt-dyno than a 150hp gas motor of similar displacement. Diesel horses are stronger than gas ones. Also having all your torque at 1500rpm yields a way different driving experience than the same torque at 4000rpm.

Not apples to apples, IMO.

This will probably lead down a semantic rabbit hole. It's not a different unit of measurement, but generally speaking, com[paring a diesel and a gasser with similar rated output, the diesel will feel stronger.

Edit: also as Inkpot mentions, to make the diesel go faster, you just turn some screws or get a MBC. An SC has very limited tunability. A turbo on a 1FZ is very tunable, but with a higher degree of complexity and cost (assuming you started with a HDJ81, and not swapping one in)

 

[Douglas S]

A turbo diesel 1HD-FT is easier to increase performance on than a SC 1FZ?

Yes

 

[Dragos80]

I guess the answer is yes. If you're familiar with diesel motors, you probably know that you can't compare HP and Torque numbers on paper and consider them equivalent. A 150hp diesel feels way stronger on a calibrated butt-dyno than a 150hp gas motor of similar displacement. Diesel horses are stronger than gas ones. Also having all your torque at 1500rpm yields a way different driving experience than the same torque at 4000rpm.

Not apples to apples, IMO.

This will probably lead down a semantic rabbit hole. It's not a different unit of measurement, but generally speaking, com[paring a diesel and a gasser with similar rated output, the diesel will feel stronger.

Edit: also as Inkpot mentions, to make the diesel go faster, you just turn some screws or get a MBC. An SC has very limited tunability. A turbo on a 1FZ is very tunable, but with a higher degree of complexity and cost (assuming you started with a HDJ81, and not swapping one in)

At the same time don't forget the 1FZE engine behaves like a diesel in terms of torque. It's very flat and it starts pretty high even at idle. 80% of the torque value is at idle.
Other things regarding the 1FZE engine are not at all similar to any diesel out there.

Diesels also have different gearing, so you don't just feel the diesel engine, you feel the work done in tandem by the engine and gears.

Old diesels are also laggy compared to gassers and new diesels. Another factor to consider if do a lot of street/freeway driving. It can be annoying.

I am all for diesels, but I can't just go blindly to their side and state only the benefits.
I would absolutely love a modern diesel in my 80, sans alphabet soup they come with, and no not that POS Cummins R28.

 

[alia176]

Have had the TRD charged motor and the 1HD-FT motor in the same rig. Also swapped over to the H151F. The rest of the truck is identical.

Miles driven with both motors is just about 25,000, with 8,000 towing a 3,000 pound trailer with the diesel.

The following numbers tell an interesting story.

MPG for 1FZ-FE with A343:

Average = 10.6
Best = 13.3

MPG for 1HD-FT with H151F:

Average = 18.3
Best = 24.8

And yes, the diesel makes a ton more torque.

Thanks for chiming in Steve @CycloSteve, real numbers can't be argued with. I assume that your driving habits didn't change with the diesel? Well technically it did as you did the shifting at optimum RPMs. Did you ever drive the diesel with EGT gague? Did you find yourself backing down on the skinny pedal when the EGTs were high and so forth? I have to wonder how much impact did the 5sp manual had over the slush box, which are known to be power zappers.

 

[mudgudgeon]

yes to first no to second statement ..

torque from Diesel will give you a better faster response ..

Yep. Gobs of torque from 1200rpm

A turbo diesel 1HD-FT is easier to increase performance on than a SC 1FZ?

Definitely.

The backyard version, bolt on a different turbo, 3" exhaust and tweak fuel delivery and you can seriously add 30-50% output.

Or, go further, add an intercooler, different turbo, upgrade the pump and they are capable of doubling the stock power and torque, and then some.
And all on standard pump fuel, no worrying about 98 octane, pinging etc.

Obviously there's limitations, and some dollars involved.

I have a stock FZJ80, and a turbo charged HZJ105, both manual.
The HZJ105 has the 1HZ motor which is the pack horse of the family, not the thoroughbred 1HD-FTE.
With 3" exhaust, OEM turbo from a 1HD-FTE and mild fuel adjustment, its gone from being a slug, to something that is fun to drive.
It has far more torque than the FZJ80, it's far quicker of the mark, very responsive.

I like the FZJ80, but it's chalk and cheese compared to the turbo diesel

 

[mudgudgeon]

At the same time don't forget the 1FZE engine behaves like a diesel in terms of torque. It's very flat and it starts pretty high even at idle. 80% of the torque value is at idle.

Yeah, but Nah. Not even close.

Yes the FZ-FE has pretty good low end torque, but it's not comparable to a diesel with a modern, well matched turbo.

My HZJ105 has torque instantly from 12-1300rpm. Enough torque to step of the clutch in 1st gear, no throttle and it will jump forward ready to climb a wall. Scary if your foot slips off the clutch in traffic DOH!

In my HDJ81, I regularly just skipped 1st, it would happily take off in 2nd on 35" tyres.
I had an issue with the clutch in my HDJ81, I drove it home with no clutch. Deliberately stalled it at traffic lights, then to take off when the lights changed, shift to 1st, key start, and go. It fired instantaneously on the first compression stroke every time, and happily took off from a standing start, no clutch, rev match, and shift gears with no clutch.

A lot of what people "know" about diesels is outdated and incorrect.
Modern turbo technology has transformed what a diesel is capable of in terms of performance, and without the need to roll coal.

 

[Dragos80]

Yeah, but Nah. Not even close.

Yes the FZ-FE has pretty good low end torque, but it's not comparable to a diesel with a modern, well matched turbo.

My HZJ105 has torque instantly from 12-1300rpm. Enough torque to step of the clutch in 1st gear, no throttle and it will jump forward ready to climb a wall. Scary if your foot slips off the clutch in traffic DOH!

In my HDJ81, I regularly just skipped 1st, it would happily take off in 2nd on 35" tyres.
I had an issue with the clutch in my HDJ81, I drove it home with no clutch. Deliberately stalled it at traffic lights, then to take off when the lights changed, shift to 1st, key start, and go. It fired instantaneously on the first compression stroke every time, and happily took off from a standing start, no clutch, rev match, and shift gears with no clutch.

A lot of what people "know" about diesels is outdated and incorrect.
Modern turbo technology has transformed what a diesel is capable of in terms of performance, and without the need to roll coal.

I DD a modern TT CR. I know exactly what it's capable of.

 

[Dork]

The diesel engine sounds much cooler. It also gives much more street cred thanks to the rarity factor.

From a "just keeps going" standpoint, my alternator failed once on a road trip. t was able to keep driving for an hour, stop the truck, fill up with fuel, start up again, drive another 2.5 hours, radio going the whole time, leave it parked overnight, start it and still drive again the next day. Mechanical fuel pump for the win, no way that would be possible on gas.

 

[TT33]

OK so from what I get, is that even though they both have about same torque, diesel torque will be available earlier (kind of like electric motor). and that makes it seem like more powerful, because initial acceleration is faster. I actually remember when driving y61, 3liter diesel, it would start strong, but then max out about 85mph and no more. I did manage to get it to 110mph or so down hill, but that was "Not fun":

Now I have a question about mods. I understand that with diesels you can easily double the power, without going into the engine, but wouldn't that also be case with gasoline? specifically 1fzfe? it seems similar concept to 2jz, which as well all know in terms of power--- sky is the limit. Personally know few people with more than double hp on stock motor. So question is, why is diesel considered better when modified?

 

[shocktower]

It boils down to - people want what they don’t have.

That is not true, I got exactly what I wanted and more

 

[Dragos80]

That is not true, I got exactly what I wanted and more

Two asses? Jealous.

 

[Douglas S]

OK so from what I get, is that even though they both have about same torque, diesel torque will be available earlier (kind of like electric motor). and that makes it seem like more powerful, because initial acceleration is faster. I actually remember when driving y61, 3liter diesel, it would start strong, but then max out about 85mph and no more. I did manage to get it to 110mph or so down hill, but that was "Not fun":

Now I have a question about mods. I understand that with diesels you can easily double the power, without going into the engine, but wouldn't that also be case with gasoline? specifically 1fzfe? it seems similar concept to 2jz, which as well all know in terms of power--- sky is the limit. Personally know few people with more than double hp on stock motor. So question is, why is diesel considered better when modified?

The 1FZ-FE can make good power not doubt, but (unlike a 2JZ-GTE) it's not sold from the factory ready for boost so there are going to be significant limitations (factory compression is high for a boosted engine, valve springs not designed to hold boost (not sure what the valves are made of either), no piston oil squirters, etc). The ECU is also a big one as as far as I'm aware it has not been cracked and is required to control the trans. Sure you could get into standalone EMS and trans controls but you're starting to talk really big $$$.

With the 1HD variant diesels you bolt everything on (turbo, intercooler, etc) and tune the pump to suit. Even easier with the HD-FTE.

 

[shocktower]

Two asses? Jealous.

And a 6bt

 

[Imwhere]

You cant compare many of these engines. ZD30 is a horrible engine (known as the grenade over here). 2jzgte is possibly the best petrol engine Toyota has produced.

You have essentially a SC'd forklift engine. Strong engine with flat torque delivery great for towing as that is what you want it for albeit with horrible gas mileage.
The 1FZ's can be made to make good power however it is big dollars, just look at what the Saudi's do with them

Diesels are more foregiving when tuned. No need to worry about leaning out, bad fuel, detonation, overheating, and more im sure. E85 has made tuning petrols a lot better but gives even worse gas mileage!!

IMHO In a car boosted petrol all the way. But in a 4wd boosted diesel FTW

 

[scottryana]

Compression is perfect 9:1
Valve springs are fine passed 2x stock power
Valves are high quality
And yes there are oil squirters....

The ECU is the problem.

A stock 1FZFE bottom end and head with boost I have no doubt would be fine with 450 crank hp and 550ft/lbs, at least it has been in my truck for 40,000 miles.

In my opinion the diesel (1HD-FT, not FTE) wins when you are talking about electronic reliability, and fuel mileage.

The 1FZ-FE can make good power not doubt, but (unlike a 2JZ-GTE) it's not sold from the factory ready for boost so there are going to be significant limitations (factory compression is high for a boosted engine, valve springs not designed to hold boost (not sure what the valves are made of either), no piston oil squirters, etc). The ECU is also a big one as as far as I'm aware it has not been cracked and is required to control the trans. Sure you could get into standalone EMS and trans controls but you're starting to talk really big $$$.

With the 1HD variant diesels you bolt everything on (turbo, intercooler, etc) and tune the pump to suit. Even easier with the HD-FTE.

 

[Douglas S]

Compression is perfect 9:1
Valve springs are fine passed 2x stock power
Valves are high quality
And yes there are oil squirters....

The ECU is the problem.

A stock 1FZFE bottom end and head with boost I have no doubt would be fine with 450 crank hp and 550ft/lbs, at least it has been in my truck for 40,000 miles.

In my opinion the diesel (1HD-FT, not FTE) wins when you are talking about electronic reliability, and fuel mileage.

TIL. It's really a shame about the ECU.