1FZ trans swaps 6R80 10R80 and more (5 Viewers)

[OutlawMike]

Started the swap on Saturday. Trans and transfer case are both in. I will not go into details on how to remove the stock transfer case and transmission. Nothing new to cover there, just get them pulled out, and, use a good transmission jack, will save you a bunch of time.

All removed:

With bell housing adapter and torque converter snout adapter. No issues with the bell housing adapter. I did need to turn .025 mm off of the crank snout on the torque converter snout adapter. Daniel will be updating future parts. Stock bell housing bolts are not used. Socket head cap screws, M12, are used in the large counterbores. One thing to mention, the stock starter design has one bolt that installs from the engine side that engages a threaded hole in the stock bell housing. It also has a bolt that installs from the transmission side that engages a threaded hole in the starter. There was no way to keep the second bolt orientation, installing from the transmission side. The adapter has two tapped M12 holes for the starts bolts. The starter needs to have the threaded hole drilled out to 13 mm. Then, a socket head cap bolt (M12) is used in place of the stock bolt. I will cover that mod later.

Torque Converter Adapter bolted to the torque converter. The torque converter adapter is attached to the Dodge 8HP75 torque converter with 3 pairs of M8 bolts. The 1FZE uses six evenly spaced M10 bolts through the flexplate. I used blue Loctite on this hardware. The "center guide" (as Daniel calls it), or, the torque converter snout adapter (as I call it), is captured between this adapter and the end of the crank. I installed it as shown, I did not put the snout adapter into the crank first.

Dodge 8HP75 threaded boss removal. Yes, you get to take a sawsall and a flapper wheel to your new/used transmission. I am not entirely sure that these bosses would have caused a problem in the tunnel, but, they would have been very close to the tunnel walls during install. If these are removed, no hammer adjustments to the tunnel are required.

Need to start a new post, hit the 5 picture limit.

 

[OutlawMike]

Dodge 8HP75 boss removal - continued:

Transmission installation was easy. We installed the torque converter (with both adapters, tc and snout) on the input shaft of the transmission. Make sure you get it all the way in, rotate it back and forth, lift up and take the weight off. I forgot to measure the final distance from the bell housing to the adapter, wish I had done that. It will install a bit far in and when you install the M10 bolts through the flexplate, you will pull it forward a bit to seat on the flexplate. Daniel did change the thread pitch on the flexplate to torque converter adapter M10 bolts to a standard M10 x 1.75. The stock bolts are a finer pitch. Be aware that you will not reuse the stock flexplate bolts. Note:: the transmission is tilted down in all the following photos. The overhead clearance you see is not what it will be with the belly pan installed.

 

[OutlawMike]

The install of the transmission went very smooth. We raised it up with just a bit of clearance to the dowel pins and then had to adjust some angles. It slid right in. All the bolts lined up, torqued them.

This kit moves the transfer case back 78.75 mm (3.1"). The gas tank is limiting factor for installing the transfer case. But, the transfer case adapter has a large hole in the center of it. The intermediate shaft is further down in this large hole. This allows for the transfer case to be tilted far down at the rear and to slip the output shaft on the transmission into the large hole, move the transfer case forward, and then take the tilt out. Installation of the transfer case went very smoothly.

I used the stock Toyota bolts to attach the transfer case to the adapter, and the stock Dodge 8HP75 bolts that attached the tail housing adapter to attach the adapter to the 8HP75.

 

[OutlawMike]

So, everything is peachy so far, right? Moving right along, feeling confident, covered all the bases, feeling that bit of pride on a job well done, then, BAM!!!

You missed something.....

Yup, Mr. Murphy is not done with this project yet, not by a long shot. Not a show stopper, but something that I thought I had addressed, had convinced myself that I understood, and somehow messed it up.

The front driveline hits the side of the transmission. The double cardan joint interferes by something like 1/2 inch. Damn it.

This picture is missing the depth into the page. The interference looks worse than it actually is, due to where on the diameter of the flange it interferes. The dust you see in the picture is aluminum dust. I cut the extended flange on this corner to be able to rotate the output flange, as the studs would hang on the flange.

How to fix this? The transfer case needs to be clocked, clockwise when looking from the front, transmission side. If we make a new rear adapter plate for the transfer case adapter that rotates the transfer case bolt and flange pattern 12.5 degrees, we will have 10 mm of clearance from the fill plug on the side of the transmission.
The bottom of the transfer case is right on horizontal, which makes the math easy.

Also, to be clear, this is a miss on my part, not Daniel at DomiWorks. He relied on my to get the J80 aspects of this correct, and I got this wrong.

By removing the bolts from the adapter to the transmission, I was able to rotate the transfer case assembly on the output shaft to find how much rotation is required. 12.5 degrees gives 10 mm of clearance to the fill plug on the side of the transmission. Shown below with front driveline installed. Adjusted gap until a 10 mm hex key just fit between the cardan joint and the fill plug.

And the official angle measurement:

Daniel and I are working on a new transfer case rear plate. There were a few other minor issues that needed to be addressed on this part, so, they can all get fixed at once.

Now, with 12.5 degrees of rotation, what else is affected? The rear driveline will have a bit more angle to it to the rear differential. Also, the total length will be slightly longer. I have a double cardan on the front of my rear driveshaft also, to cancel out driveline vibration with my lift kit.

For now, I am going to continue with the install, startup, and adaptation of the transmission. I will run it without the front driveline and the center diff lock engaged. The biggest risk I take is that I have to get the rear driveshaft lengthened again. I have measurements with it rotated, and will build to that number. Probably a low risk. (Famous last words....)

 

[fjbj40]

Silly question but is rotating the Xfer case going to have an effect on lubrication? Such as the change in level height now cause oil to be where it’s not supposed to be and will you be able to get the recommended quantity of oil in there based on the oil fill port being lower due to the rotation?

This all looks awesome so far and once the total cost is out it looks to be a better swap than a 5 speed manual imop.

Cheers

 

[PIP]

One suggestion- Don't drill the threads out of the starter. Use a 10mm bolt through the threads from the front.

Toyota uses that same Denso starter in many other applications with M10 bolts.

I use the 100 series starter in VW TDI adapters with M8 bolts and it works fine, but that's just a 2.0l engine.

 

[OutlawMike]

Silly question but is rotating the Xfer case going to have an effect on lubrication? Such as the change in level height now cause oil to be where it’s not supposed to be and will you be able to get the recommended quantity of oil in there based on the oil fill port being lower due to the rotation?

This all looks awesome so far and once the total cost is out it looks to be a better swap than a 5 speed manual imop.

Cheers

Not a silly question at all. I will look at the location of the fill plug and the vertical change in location after rotation. If the fill plug is on the driver's side of the center of rotation (output shaft of transmission), then it will move lower as it rotates. If it is on the passenger side of center of rotation, it will move higher as it rotates. The further it is to one side or the other, the more vertical change it will see. Will follow up with what I find.

 

[OutlawMike]

One suggestion- Don't drill the threads out of the starter. Use a 10mm bolt through the threads from the front.

Toyota uses that same Denso starter in many other applications with M10 bolts.

I use the 100 series starter in VW TDI adapters with M8 bolts and it works fine, but that's just a 2.0l engine.

That is a good suggestion and eliminates the need to modify the starter. Too late for this Proto 1 installation, but I will bring that up with Daniel. I have drilled my starter out already and the bell housing adapter has M12 x 1.75 threads in it. Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[OutlawMike]

Silly question but is rotating the Xfer case going to have an effect on lubrication? Such as the change in level height now cause oil to be where it’s not supposed to be and will you be able to get the recommended quantity of oil in there based on the oil fill port being lower due to the rotation?

This all looks awesome so far and once the total cost is out it looks to be a better swap than a 5 speed manual imop.

Cheers

I did some experimenting with rotating the transfer case last night and looked at the rotation of the fill plug and what happens to the volume of oil in the transfer case.

Stock orientation:

Rotated 12.5 degrees:

Your comment has raised a valid concern. In the pictures above you can visually pick up on the projected area below the horizontal line is less once rotated than before. I expect that I will not be able to get the same volume of lubrication into the case before it starts to leak out of the fill plug.

I think I can address this by jacking up the rear of the vehicle to create an angle that puts the fill plug higher. I will try that once I get the final assembly and verify that I can put the same volume of fluid into the case as the manual says.

Beyond that, I think I could put the fluid in through the speedo sensor hole. Fill the case until it comes out of the fill hole, put that plug in, and the extra fluid can go in through the speedo sensor hole. That would get the specified volume of fluid into the case.

One thing to note, in the pictures above the transfer case and transmission are rotated downward at an angle a bit, so the position relative to the gas tank is not accurate for when the cross member is installed. And, yes, once the transfer case is rotated and then raised up on the transmission mount, I will need to do some exhaust modifications where the rear O2 sensor is located.

Thanks

Mike

 

[landtank]

The DC joint you have is the larger inside clip version. The outside clip version is smaller but is also weaker. I can measure the OD of the smaller shaft if you would like.

 

[OutlawMike]

The DC joint you have is the larger inside clip version. The outside clip version is smaller but is also weaker. I can measure the OD of the smaller shaft if you would like.

Hello, good to hear from you.

This is the first part of my swap project. Once I get this up and running, I will move onto the ECU side of the project and get some answers on your idea for addressing the ECU.

I think I will stay with the larger DC joint. I need to make this work for Daniel in the majority of applications, and my own will require a stronger joint, as I am already at 10 PSI of boost and will probably end up at 12 PSI or so after swapping in a stronger transmission. A weaker DC joint would most likely not work for me.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Mike

 

[OutlawMike]

Design is finished for the 12.5 degree rotation of the transfer case. Now to see how fast we can turn one around.

 

[OutlawMike]

One suggestion- Don't drill the threads out of the starter. Use a 10mm bolt through the threads from the front.

Toyota uses that same Denso starter in many other applications with M10 bolts.

I use the 100 series starter in VW TDI adapters with M8 bolts and it works fine, but that's just a 2.0l engine.

Hello,

I have thought about this and run some numbers on clearances versus what Toyota designed in stock for the starter bolts.

The minor diameter of an M12 x 1.25 thread is 10.65 mm. Since these bolts are 70 mm long, the bolt will not be fully threaded and the portion under the head of the bolt will be run around 9.9 mm in diameter. This yields a nominal diameter difference for an M10 bolt passing through a threaded M12 x 1.25 hole of .75 mm. Radially this is .375 mm of clearance. Stock, Toyota had a 12 mm hole with and a M12 x 1.25 bolt with a major diameter in the range of 11.9 mm. This yields a diameter difference of 1.1 mm and a nominal radial clearance of .55 mm. There are three hole patterns to align. The holes in the starter, the block, and the adapter plate, with their own tolerance for location.

I think I am more comfortable with the larger radial clearance if we drill out to 13 mm and stay in the design range that Toyota came up with . The difference in radial clearance is not great, but I cannot do a full tolerance analysis for fit of the three hole patterns, as I do not know the tolerances that are held for the start or the block.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Mike

 

[PIP]

Hello,

I have thought about this and run some numbers on clearances versus what Toyota designed in stock for the starter bolts.

The minor diameter of an M12 x 1.25 thread is 10.65 mm. Since these bolts are 70 mm long, the bolt will not be fully threaded and the portion under the head of the bolt will be run around 9.9 mm in diameter. This yields a nominal diameter difference for an M10 bolt passing through a threaded M12 x 1.25 hole of .75 mm. Radially this is .375 mm of clearance. Stock, Toyota had a 12 mm hole with and a M12 x 1.25 bolt with a major diameter in the range of 11.9 mm. This yields a diameter difference of 1.1 mm and a nominal radial clearance of .55 mm. There are three hole patterns to align. The holes in the starter, the block, and the adapter plate, with their own tolerance for location.

I think I am more comfortable with the larger radial clearance if we drill out to 13 mm and stay in the design range that Toyota came up with . The difference in radial clearance is not great, but I cannot do a full tolerance analysis for fit of the three hole patterns, as I do not know the tolerances that are held for the start or the block.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Mike

I suggested not modifying the starter as it can be a barrier to replacing the starter if your starter fails away from home. It ruins the core value of the starter as well.

I don't quite follow your fastener clearance explanation.

In the bolted joint of the starter the fasteners are not bearing in shear.

The starter fasteners are in tension and the friction of the starter face to the mounting surface resists starter pinion torque.

A tapped M12x1.25 hole should be about 10.75mm through which is a perfectly reasonable clearance hole for an M10 bolt.

 

[OutlawMike]

I suggested not modifying the starter as it can be a barrier to replacing the starter if your starter fails away from home. It ruins the core value of the starter as well.

I don't quite follow your fastener clearance explanation.

In the bolted joint of the starter the fasteners are not bearing in shear.

The starter fasteners are in tension and the friction of the starter face to the mounting surface resists starter pinion torque.

A tapped M12x1.25 hole should be about 10.75mm through which is a perfectly reasonable clearance hole for an M10 bolt.

Hello,

Sorry, I'm going to go full nerd design engineer on you.... Be warned!

The fastener clearance numbers were in relation to a tolerance loop through the three hole patterns being mated together and ensuring that the bolts will pass through all three holes without interference. As the clearance holes decrease in diameter, the chances of an interference situation increase, but depend on what tolerances were specified on the original parts and what tolerances were held when the parts were manufactured.

Each of the hole patterns has a tolerance for location that relates back to the datums and process used to put them into the parts when they were made. The bell housing adapter is in our control, so, we know what tolerances are on the print and what true position callout was used for those two tapped holes, relative to the datums on the adapter.

For the block, I have no idea what datums were used in the fixture when they machined the starter flange alignment hole (large round hole) or the two clearance holes in the block, or if they were put in during the same operation, or if they did it in separate operations. I would assume they would have the two clearance holes controlled relative to the center of the flange alignment hole with some sort of local datum structure and use a pattern tolerance on the two clearance holes. But, no way to know for sure.

For the starter, I also do not know what datum structure was used and how they control the clearance hole and tapped hole relative to the snout alignment feature.

What I do know is that a design engineer in Japan put a 13 mm clearance hole in for an M12 bolt with a nominal OD of 11.9 mm, yielding a nominal radial clearance of ,55 mm. The M10 bolt through a tapped M12 x 1.25 hole would have a nominal radial clearance of .375 mm. If we reduce the radial clearance on one of the holes, do we end up with an interference fit at some point with the block clearance holes for some combination of starter, block , and adapter? One bolt goes in, but the other hits the side of the clearance hole in the block, and it cannot start threading into the bell housing adapter. Then someone is faced with drilling out the block clearance hole to get the bolt to start, or, most likely they try to force the bolt in and cross thread it into the adapter, stripping the threads, and well, bad things at that point.

I agree with you that drilling out the starter does complicate replacing the starter down the road, especially if you are in the field, or in a small town in the middle of nowhere. But, it is an easily removable and replaceable part, compared to the other parts in the assembly. And, conversely, if you are in a remote area and we go with the 10 mm bolt through a tapped 12 mm hole, and your starter fails, and the new starter has tolerance float for the hole pattern that creates a situation like I described above, you are laying on the ground with a dead starter that bolts in and a new starter that will not, and wondering why.

Would love to hear other opinions on this. For my swap, I am already past this point, but if others really want the change, I'm sure Daniel will do it.

Thanks

Mike

 

[PIP]

Hello,

Sorry, I'm going to go full nerd design engineer on you.... Be warned!

The fastener clearance numbers were in relation to a tolerance loop through the three hole patterns being mated together and ensuring that the bolts will pass through all three holes without interference. As the clearance holes decrease in diameter, the chances of an interference situation increase, but depend on what tolerances were specified on the original parts and what tolerances were held when the parts were manufactured.

Each of the hole patterns has a tolerance for location that relates back to the datums and process used to put them into the parts when they were made. The bell housing adapter is in our control, so, we know what tolerances are on the print and what true position callout was used for those two tapped holes, relative to the datums on the adapter.

For the block, I have no idea what datums were used in the fixture when they machined the starter flange alignment hole (large round hole) or the two clearance holes in the block, or if they were put in during the same operation, or if they did it in separate operations. I would assume they would have the two clearance holes controlled relative to the center of the flange alignment hole with some sort of local datum structure and use a pattern tolerance on the two clearance holes. But, no way to know for sure.

For the starter, I also do not know what datum structure was used and how they control the clearance hole and tapped hole relative to the snout alignment feature.

What I do know is that a design engineer in Japan put a 13 mm clearance hole in for an M12 bolt with a nominal OD of 11.9 mm, yielding a nominal radial clearance of ,55 mm. The M10 bolt through a tapped M12 x 1.25 hole would have a nominal radial clearance of .375 mm. If we reduce the radial clearance on one of the holes, do we end up with an interference fit at some point with the block clearance holes for some combination of starter, block , and adapter? One bolt goes in, but the other hits the side of the clearance hole in the block, and it cannot start threading into the bell housing adapter. Then someone is faced with drilling out the block clearance hole to get the bolt to start, or, most likely they try to force the bolt in and cross thread it into the adapter, stripping the threads, and well, bad things at that point.

I agree with you that drilling out the starter does complicate replacing the starter down the road, especially if you are in the field, or in a small town in the middle of nowhere. But, it is an easily removable and replaceable part, compared to the other parts in the assembly. And, conversely, if you are in a remote area and we go with the 10 mm bolt through a tapped 12 mm hole, and your starter fails, and the new starter has tolerance float for the hole pattern that creates a situation like I described above, you are laying on the ground with a dead starter that bolts in and a new starter that will not, and wondering why.

Would love to hear other opinions on this. For my swap, I am already past this point, but if others really want the change, I'm sure Daniel will do it.

Thanks

Mike

I appreciate the full nerd explanation.

It's not an assumption that these parts were built with good practice using tolerances standard for the application.

In my 20 years of manufacturing automotive goods I have encountered several examples of M10X1.5 bolts used through M12x1.75 holes. That would be a tighter fit than what we're discussing here. A prolific application of that is Hydroboost brake boosters. They use a LH M12x1.75 thread to mount the master cylinder. Some applications use M12/M10 stepped studs threaded into the M12 LH threads. While many applications use one or more M10 studs pressed into the master passing through the M12 LH threads into a nut on the backside.