Builds 1994 HZJ73 Wine Red Flex Dream

[Fishbulb]

Sorry for stepping back a bit, but I was catching up on your thread and I wanted to clear something up:



Yes... it most certainly does. Think of it this way:

Let's say that you have zero degrees of caster right now - rather, the kingpin axis points directly downward from the axle/wheel/tire's center of rotation - and let's say that your tires are slightly toed-in at the front; let's call it 1/4" of toe-in. Now, do something extreme: rotate the axle 180°, so the pinion is not just pointing a bit more up or down, but pointing forward. It's ridiculous to imagine, but this is 180° of either positive or negative caster (and it really isn't either one, but bear with me)...and guess what's happened to you toe-in? Answer: it's now reversed. You have 1/4" of toe out. You changed the caster, and with it, the toe.

Now, let's step back to reality. You actually have a couple of degrees of positive caster on your front axle, which creates something of a self-righting torque in your steering; it's the opposite of a negative-caster shopping trolley, which - as we all know from childhood - simply cannot steer itself. If you change that caster, you change the toe measurement as well... it's just not by very much. The question is whether or not "not by very much" is important. Short answer to that pondering: yes, it's important. I've had as little as 1/32" - 0.8mm - be the difference between a good, solid return-to-center and overly-twitchy steering, or between "this feels okay" and "there's a huge dead spot in the steering."

This being said: in most cases - lookin' at you, solid front axles! - toe isn't that sensitive, but caster changes can and do impact it. I've anecdotally found it to be increasingly vital as the wheelbase shortens. Also, the toe setting is the last thing to adjust when making changes in the front end; I like to measure it off the brake rotors with two 36" levels, each of which is marked with a center point, and 1/4" increments to show me where to put the tape in order to mimic actual rolling tire diameters. Works pretty well.

Okay, derail concluded...and thanks for the info on the Frontrunner rack/sale. My bank account hates you, but thanks all the same.

Thanks for the explanation! I got the toe sorted last week and it seems to roll smooth and straight down the road. I’m really getting the handling and drive-ability dialed in!

Short and sweet reply as I’m on the road right now! My apologies homie!

 

[Fishbulb]

After getting the front axle rebuilt last week and off-roading this weekend I’ve realized that the front electric hubs are not working now….

To take the Cruiser back to the shop that rebuilt the front axle and have them sort the front electric hubs or just do the manual conversion….

I’m leaning towards the latter….

Had to do a full off-road weekend in 2wd with the rear locker engaged.

 

[Sundowner]

Looking forward to your decision tree on the manual hubs vs. electric. Also, I missed this, but: are you running a wire rope on your winch? Looked like steel rollers in that last photo, but it was hard to tell; just curious.

How'd the rack hold up to the chassis and top flexing? I'm about to clear a space and assemble mine while the rig is stationary for a few days.

 

[janyyc]

Manual.

 

[Sundowner]

Manual.

Are the electric versions really as garbage-flavored as they're made out to be?

 

[Gun Runner 5]

After getting the front axle rebuilt last week and off-roading this weekend I’ve realized that the front electric hubs are not working now….

To take the Cruiser back to the shop that rebuilt the front axle and have them sort the front electric hubs or just do the manual conversion….

I’m leaning towards the latter….

Had to do a full off-road weekend in 2wd with the rear locker engaged.


View attachment 3479449
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I‘ve owned multiple Land Cruisers with the factory electric hubs and they worked great …….……
……. right up to the point where you really, really needed them.

 

[janyyc]

Are the electric versions really as garbage-flavored as they're made out to be?

Manual - on or off. Electric - who knows.

 

[Sundowner]

Manual - on or off. Electric - who knows.

So the issue is that they're known for partially-engaging...or spontaneously disengaging, or what? From what GunRunner said it seems to be a reliability question, and from Rover's post it seems like it's not exactly a cut-and-dried situation. I've been doing some searching and it's clear that people don't like the electric hubs, but I'm not having a lot of luck finding out what the problem actually is.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

When I had my 77 Series converted to manual hubs, we took the opportunity to cannibalize one of the small motors (the same small motor you depend on to engage the front hubs and get you home). There were gears that would be shunned by the folks at Timex Watches. It seems that unlike most components on a Land Cruiser, this particular device was woefully under-engineered.

 

[JuanJ]

When I had my 77 Series converted to manual hubs, we took the opportunity to cannibalize one of the small motors (the same small motor you depend on to engage the front hubs and get you home). There were gears that would be shunned by the folks at Timex Watches. It seems that unlike most components on a Land Cruiser, this particular device was woefully under-engineered.

Hello,

Those hubs are a reminder that engineering mistakes can be catastrophic.





Juan

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Hello,

Those hubs are a reminder that engineering mistakes can be catastrophic.





Juan

It probably not a coincidence that their current electric hubs have a manual override.

 

[AirheadNut]

So the issue is that they're known for partially-engaging...or spontaneously disengaging, or what? From what GunRunner said it seems to be a reliability question, and from Rover's post it seems like it's not exactly a cut-and-dried situation. I've been doing some searching and it's clear that people don't like the electric hubs, but I'm not having a lot of luck finding out what the problem actually is.

The problem mainly stems from poor conductivity and delicate electrical parts. There is a contact ring that goes around the axle stub and a pair of tiny carbon brushes that ride on it. When reassembling the hub great care must be taken to properly retain the brush holders so they do not get damaged. If the parts are not properly greased with the correct type of grease in the right places there will be conductivity issues between the slip ring and brushes, preventing the hubs from engaging.

They seem fairly complicated at first, but having had mine apart a few times now for maintenance and to check up on component wear, they are actually quite straightforward. The hubs can take a little while to engage after pushing the button; I like to slowly creep forward and backward to make sure the splines lock in, then test by engaging 4wd while moving at a low speed. If it engages smoothly then the hubs are both locked in.

 

[Sundowner]

The problem mainly stems from poor conductivity and delicate electrical parts. There is a contact ring that goes around the axle stub and a pair of tiny carbon brushes that ride on it. When reassembling the hub great care must be taken to properly retain the brush holders so they do not get damaged. If the parts are not properly greased with the correct type of grease in the right places there will be conductivity issues between the slip ring and brushes, preventing the hubs from engaging.

That explains something I've not been understanding for awhile, now; thank you.

They seem fairly complicated at first, but having had mine apart a few times now for maintenance and to check up on component wear, they are actually quite straightforward. The hubs can take a little while to engage after pushing the button; I like to slowly creep forward and backward to make sure the splines lock in, then test by engaging 4wd while moving at a low speed. If it engages smoothly then the hubs are both locked in.

Solid advice; thanks on that point as well. Apologies for the derail.

 

[Fishbulb]

Looking forward to your decision tree on the manual hubs vs. electric. Also, I missed this, but: are you running a wire rope on your winch? Looked like steel rollers in that last photo, but it was hard to tell; just curious.

How'd the rack hold up to the chassis and top flexing? I'm about to clear a space and assemble mine while the rig is stationary for a few days.

I'm running a steel cable. I'm not sure how compatible a synthetic rope is with my Comeup winch. Its something I've been meaning to look into. I'm running a lot of extra weight on this truck and shaving 20 pounds off the front wouldn't hurt.

The rack holds up well. If the cross bars are close to touching your top I would recommend putting a rubber matt between the rack and the top section of the top. I did that as the rack was gouging up the top a bit upon flex on a previous trip.

 

[Sundowner]

I'm running a steel cable. I'm not sure how compatible a synthetic rope is with my Comeup winch. Its something I've been meaning to look into. I'm running a lot of extra weight on this truck and shaving 20 pounds off the front wouldn't hurt.

I can't think of a reason that a synthetic rope wouldn't work; I haven't met many winches that can't use either steel or Dyneema...so just make sure you exchange your fairlead rollers to a poly set, or - preferably - swap to a hawse.

The rack holds up well. If the cross bars are close to touching your top I would recommend putting a rubber matt between the rack and the top section of the top. I did that as the rack was gouging up the top a bit upon flex on a previous trip.

Interesting... I didn't think the rack would be sitting that close to the top. I will definitely keep an eye out for that and make adjustments as needed; I would have gotten the "tall" edition of the standoffs if I'd known.

 

[Fishbulb]

I can't think of a reason that a synthetic rope wouldn't work; I haven't met many winches that can't use either steel or Dyneema...so just make sure you exchange your fairlead rollers to a poly set, or - preferably - swap to a hawse.



Interesting... I didn't think the rack would be sitting that close to the top. I will definitely keep an eye out for that and make adjustments as needed; I would have gotten the "tall" edition of the standoffs if I'd known.

Sorry, man

 

[Sundowner]

Sorry, man

Not your fault in any way; that's a failing on my part to do the correct research. No worries.

 

[Guyute]

Not your fault in any way; that's a failing on my part to do the correct research. No worries.

FRO swapped feet for me on my 77 series rack. Same issue... the rack spec'd for the rig was rubbing the roof around the center crossbars. This was pre-dometic takeover. But They have been a stand up company every time I've dealt w/ them.

They also have 6 or 10MM (?) spacers that are not listed on the site.

B

 

[Sundowner]

FRO swapped feet for me on my 77 series rack. Same issue... the rack spec'd for the rig was rubbing the roof around the center crossbars. This was pre-dometic takeover. But They have been a stand up company every time I've dealt w/ them.

I'll unpack the mounty bits today and take a look at where they're going to place the rack; hopefully since I'm just a few days into having received it, they'll give me a swap if I need one.

They also have 6 or 10MM (?) spacers that are not listed on the site.

Cool; that was going to be my fallback plan. It's good that they have them in stock.

Rover, you said "close to touching"... how close was it? Rather, what amount of flex were you seeing?

 

[Fishbulb]

I'll unpack the mounty bits today and take a look at where they're going to place the rack; hopefully since I'm just a few days into having received it, they'll give me a swap if I need one.



Cool; that was going to be my fallback plan. It's good that they have them in stock.

Rover, you said "close to touching"... how close was it? Rather, what amount of flex were you seeing?

I would say they are about an 1/8th of an inch from touching. Off road wheel flex and/or rough pot holes in the road hit at high speeds would seem to make it rub.