Builds 1988 BJ74 “Number 1”

[FJBen]

Intercooling…

Ya know, you start googling on the interwebz about intercooling and wow…it’s amazing how easy it is to talk yourself in and out of each method and end up installing Tesla motors to assist the hydrogen powered propane injected multi fuel wankel chain driven power plant


Now my EGTs aren’t really an issue at all in day to day driving. Hot summer, altitude, mountains, packed for trips it’s going to go up.


Air to Air - simple and proven. Get a big ol intercooler, slap in the front watch temps drop. Prob will lose boost but overall works well. However, Probabaly the hardest to install in a narrow nose Land Cruiser. May or may not keep A/C, grill change/cut, cut holes in the front for 2.5” piping and there is like zero room on the 13BT. Possibly could find a thin one to fit easier but shroud/radiator mods etc. every little compromise lessens cooling.

A top mount would be easier to fit however they hear soak, less efficient, need a fan and hole in the hood…I don’t think there is enough room for a decent top mount and it would have to be custom made.


Air to water seems good but a bit complicated and I don’t really have good room for it without looking bad. Could use a barrel type on top the the shroud, it’s not terrible looking. Then the whole heat exchanger issues are much like the front mount air. I’ve read to have good cooling you need a decent size heat exchanger. Plus now you have another cooling system/hoses to deal with.

Meth/water injection seems pretty good overall, again with compromises. By far easiest to install and easily reversible. Cheap(ish) a couple hundred gets you a good setup, much less if you are super DIY. Basically need a tank to hold water/meth mix, small pump and nozzle that fits on intake. Most people run them on triggers when it reaches certain boost or egt when it kicks on. Ive read up to 200F temp drops when properly setup. Downsides are you are on consumables, amount of water you can keep and how fast it goes through it.


I’m leaning towards water and meth injection. It’s not a new tech as old war plane fighters were running this tech back in the day.

It would be by far the easiest to implement. Im already using Auber guages that I can trigger relays for EGT or boost. The pumps can be had for cheap windshield washer up to high end pumps for this. There is some math involved in nozzles/size and amount they can move but it’s pretty well figured out. The hardest part would be finding the space for a water tank A lot use another windshield washer tank so that might be an option. Also use a check valve so that any vacuum cannot pull water out when not wanted.


I know @GTSSportCoupe runs or ran meth/water on a 2LTE and I’m pretty sure @cruiserdan did or does on his supercharged 80.


Any thoughts from those who have run it and why they would or wouldn’t do it again?

 

[theglobb]

Intercooling…

Ya know, you start googling on the interwebz about intercooling and wow…it’s amazing how easy it is to talk yourself in and out of each method and end up installing Tesla motors to assist the hydrogen powered propane injected multi fuel wankel chain driven power plant


Now my EGTs aren’t really an issue at all in day to day driving. Hot summer, altitude, mountains, packed for trips it’s going to go up.


Air to Air - simple and proven. Get a big ol intercooler, slap in the front watch temps drop. Prob will lose boost but overall works well. However, Probabaly the hardest to install in a narrow nose Land Cruiser. May or may not keep A/C, grill change/cut, cut holes in the front for 2.5” piping and there is like zero room on the 13BT. Possibly could find a thin one to fit easier but shroud/radiator mods etc. every little compromise lessens cooling.

A top mount would be easier to fit however they hear soak, less efficient, need a fan and hole in the hood…I don’t think there is enough room for a decent top mount and it would have to be custom made.


Air to water seems good but a bit complicated and I don’t really have good room for it without looking bad. Could use a barrel type on top the the shroud, it’s not terrible looking. Then the whole heat exchanger issues are much like the front mount air. I’ve read to have good cooling you need a decent size heat exchanger. Plus now you have another cooling system/hoses to deal with.

Meth/water injection seems pretty good overall, again with compromises. By far easiest to install and easily reversible. Cheap(ish) a couple hundred gets you a good setup, much less if you are super DIY. Basically need a tank to hold water/meth mix, small pump and nozzle that fits on intake. Most people run them on triggers when it reaches certain boost or egt when it kicks on. Ive read up to 200F temp drops when properly setup. Downsides are you are on consumables, amount of water you can keep and how fast it goes through it.


I’m leaning towards water and meth injection. It’s not a new tech as old war plane fighters were running this tech back in the day.

It would be by far the easiest to implement. Im already using Auber guages that I can trigger relays for EGT or boost. The pumps can be had for cheap windshield washer up to high end pumps for this. There is some math involved in nozzles/size and amount they can move but it’s pretty well figured out. The hardest part would be finding the space for a water tank A lot use another windshield washer tank so that might be an option. Also use a check valve so that any vacuum cannot pull water out when not wanted.


I know @GTSSportCoupe runs or ran meth/water on a 2LTE and I’m pretty sure @cruiserdan did or does on his supercharged 80.


Any thoughts from those who have run it and why they would or wouldn’t do it again?

paging @robmobile73
He's always full of some of the most interesting ideas out there and I believe he has messed with meth injection previously with his 73

 

[saltycoconuts]

Ya know....


I’m leaning towards meth injection.

Me too

 

[coldtaco]

I put a front mount on the BJ70 I had with a 13BT. I didn’t have ac as it as a Canadian model. I can’t remember the specs but if I remember correctly I did have to cut holes in the radiator support. Maybe someone with good sleuthing skills can find my thread on this, this was back in 2005 or something.

 

[coldtaco]

Looky there I found it

13B-T intercooler

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[FJBen]

Looky there I found it

13B-T intercooler

forum.ih8mud.com

Yeah yours is one of the only ones I’ve seen with a 13bt and front mount. All the front mount take some fabbing/cutting etc.

 

[FJBen]

13BT power numbers. It appears to appropriately size the system/nozzles you need some info. Ive read many different ways of sizing and people sell them by different measurements…

13BT - 120hp at the flywheel. At least that’s what they tell us new/stock is.

I’ve found 2 dynos from people with 13BTs. The bad isnthat neither was stock or in a BJ74.

@OilHammer 13bt is basically stock, but has a ct26 with wastegate pinched for 12psi and front intercooled. He’s at 5280’ altitude, on 33s and got 98hp to the wheels in his 40. In my bad math he would be around 140crank HP giving 30% drivetrain loss. Could be closer to 125 crank HP with less drivetrain loss, or engine wear etc…

@Nz Nath has a 13bt in a land rover with a Holset he221 intercooler and 34” super swampers and lives at just about sea level. He runs a 10mm fuel pump bs stock His dyno shows 152 crank hp and if I remember 20psi with boost leaks

So I think the stock numbers are fairly accurate. I remember others, but can’t find any posts about power/numbers.


This little vague chart from snow performance only goes to 200hp crank numbers…

So by extrapolating these numbers (that’s a big word) at 150hp crank which seems pretty easily attainable on a fresh engine, upgraded turbo and up to 20psi boost looks like I would be in the orange to dark red numbers which is around 2.5 -3 gph (gallon per hour) assuming a 50/50 meth mix. Size down if less than that. So 2-2.5gph would seem to be fine.

This chart is based on 100psi from the pump. More on this later…anything less than 100psi apparently doesn’t work as well, doesn’t mist well, yadda yadda yadda

 

[bj70bc]

Ive read that with improper water meth atomization or too high a flow rate you can get piston/upper cylinder pitting/erosion, and depending on where you mount the nozzle(s) you can get more mist to one cylinder than the others.
Also you have to consider the fact that a diesel is not supposed to be compressing a fuel mix at all, as the diesel is injected at or close to tdc. so there is the pre-ignition issue as well, some people say anything more than 20% meth you get pre-ignition (bad bad deal in any engine, your crank and rods are in a situation of too high pressure and may liberate themselves from their intended locations)
Ive considered this as a egt mitigation solution at above 15 psi but seems a bit too raw-dog for me....
I went water to air intercooled on mine...

 

[FJBen]

Ive read that with improper water meth atomization or too high a flow rate you can get piston/upper cylinder pitting/erosion, and depending on where you mount the nozzle(s) you can get more mist to one cylinder than the others.
Also you have to consider the fact that a diesel is not supposed to be compressing a fuel mix at all, as the diesel is injected at or close to tdc. so there is the pre-ignition issue as well, some people say anything more than 20% meth you get pre-ignition (bad bad deal in any engine, your crank and rods are in a situation of too high pressure and may liberate themselves from their intended locations)
Ive considered this as a egt mitigation solution at above 15 psi but seems a bit too raw-dog for me....
I went water to air intercooled on mine...

As with any mods, too much is a bad thing, like 20+ psi on a 3B…

Ok enough being snarky. . My main use for this is cooling, and any power bump would be nice, but not my motivation for this.


As you stated, there are problems if you just slap something on and go. Science and stuff.

Too much flow, cheap/poor atomizing nozzles, low pressure, full methanol all can cause issues.


The places that sell these all run a minimum of 100psi, snow performance that I posted the chart is based on 190-200psi using their pump. You then size your nozzle(s) to flow what you need for the engine. I emailed them and they stated for my diesel, boost and HP that a single 2.5-3gph would be good. He said 2.5gph would be a conservative starting point.

So if we start with good atomization nozzles (and whatever marketing term hypersonic etc ) sized correctly, and running at the correct pressure 190-200psi in this case, we have our theoretical perfect nozzle atomizing correctly at 2.5 gallons per hour. If you are running it all the time, you will need a good sized tank.

If we are running pure water strictly for cooling purposes, we have zero pre-detonation risk. We will still get a little power bump due to cooling of the charged air, how much I don’t know. People use -20f wiper fluid (just the water/meth kind no other additives) and it’s usually 70/30. Boost juice that snow performance and a lot of people use, 50/50 according to them.

Mix your own cocktail on the road? Heet yellow bottle water remover…100% Methanol.


I know there is risk for pre-detonation, but I’m sure if you listen to the engine and stay under the 50/50 (unless you are an HP monster) you should be fine.


I think a lot of people run into issues when the tune for meth injection. Then when they run out or something happens, bad things happen.

Nozzle placement according to most places should be close To the intake. If everything is atomizing correctly it should just flow with the air correctly to all cylinders.




Personally I would rather run an air 2 air, I just cant see a way without a bunch of mods, fabrication, trial and error and cutting or losing a/c (which ironically hasn’t worked on my cruiser since I’ve had it

 

[bj70bc]

hey, for the record, i want to see you do it!
that was just a few of my thoughts on why i havent yet done it.....
and btw 20 psi gives me the feels ....its only 20 psi at the *end* of every gear anyhoo haha
YOU should definitely become a meth addict.... and then tell me how i can do it too

 

[FJBen]

hey, for the record, i want to see you do it!
that was just a few of my thoughts on why i havent yet done it.....
and btw 20 psi gives me the feels ....its only 20 psi at the *end* of every gear anyhoo haha
YOU should definitely become a meth addict.... and then tell me how i can do it too

There is definitely a lot of pros/cons/experiences on this water/meth injection. Some people love it, some say it causes problems.

It’s not too expensive and very reversible. This would allow me to turn up the fuel some more and have some safety. I don’t want to tune it so that I need that to keep it cool.

Im still wracking my brain about a front mount, but really learning about the water/meth has been good.

 

[bj70bc]

I love the idea, but in my mind a multi port in the intake manifold would be best and only maybe 10% meth, but im up in freeze territory so it would be a maintenance issue for me.
And honestly at 20 psi with the fuel up 1.25 turns it goes pretty good and i max out at 1250 full hill push... and the crank is probably reaching its safety window anyways

How is your egts situation that you want extra cooling?
I found a few more psi really took care of that heat rise at max push (hence why im at 20 psi)

 

[Rigster]

13BT power numbers. It appears to appropriately size the system/nozzles you need some info. Ive read many different ways of sizing and people sell them by different measurements…

13BT - 120hp at the flywheel. At least that’s what they tell us new/stock is.

I’ve found 2 dynos from people with 13BTs. The bad isnthat neither was stock or in a BJ74.

@OilHammer 13bt is basically stock, but has a ct26 with wastegate pinched for 12psi and front intercooled. He’s at 5280’ altitude, on 33s and got 98hp to the wheels in his 40. In my bad math he would be around 140crank HP giving 30% drivetrain loss. Could be closer to 125 crank HP with less drivetrain loss, or engine wear etc…

@Nz Nath has a 13bt in a land rover with a Holset he221 intercooler and 34” super swampers and lives at just about sea level. He runs a 10mm fuel pump bs stock His dyno shows 152 crank hp and if I remember 20psi with boost leaks

So I think the stock numbers are fairly accurate. I remember others, but can’t find any posts about power/numbers.


This little vague chart from snow performance only goes to 200hp crank numbers…

View attachment 3308202

So by extrapolating these numbers (that’s a big word) at 150hp crank which seems pretty easily attainable on a fresh engine, upgraded turbo and up to 20psi boost looks like I would be in the orange to dark red numbers which is around 2.5 -3 gph (gallon per hour) assuming a 50/50 meth mix. Size down if less than that. So 2-2.5gph would seem to be fine.

This chart is based on 100psi from the pump. More on this later…anything less than 100psi apparently doesn’t work as well, doesn’t mist well, yadda yadda yadda

Hmmm.... this should be interesting should you decide to move forward with this.

The only time I have heard of injecting other things besides diesel/bio-diesel/kerosene into a diesel motor is the tractor pulls that inject steam and propane to get over 2000HP. Most end up in an impressively expensive explosion!

Not that I am saying this will happen to you of course, since you would not be pushing it to the max, attempting tractor pulls.

 

[FJBen]

I love the idea, but in my mind a multi port in the intake manifold would be best and only maybe 10% meth, but im up in freeze territory so it would be a maintenance issue for me.
And honestly at 20 psi with the fuel up 1.25 turns it goes pretty good and i max out at 1250 full hill push... and the crank is probably reaching its safety window anyways

How is your egts situation that you want extra cooling?
I found a few more psi really took care of that heat rise at max push (hence why im at 20 psi)

My EGTs are fine. Pretty cool actually with this Holset turbo. However I do know once we hit summer, I turn up the fuel and start hitting some mountains loaded down, it will probably start getting hot.

Normal highway at 65 I’m running 600-800 depending on wind/hills at 5000’ altitude.

This summer with the smaller exhaust I was running 1080 at 12psi, 63mph heading up a small mountain pass around 8000’ not super pushing it. It was just me in the rig, nothing else so light load.

So I have some safety, but and intercooler or cooling of some sort would be nice.

 

[robmobile73]

paging @robmobile73
He's always full of some of the most interesting ideas out there and I believe he has messed with meth injection previously with his 73

Intercooling is most effective at generally keeping EGT's lower no matter ambient. The unconventional intercooler method for the 70 with not enough room is air to water with your heat exchanger being a radiator under/on your roof rack with 3/8 copper lines going up along your snorkel/windshield frame .

Water/methanol injection to protect against high EGTs on the occasion they spike and you aren't paying attention is very cheap/ easy. Buy a universal windshield washer pump. Use one nozzle to spray into the front of the intake near the turbo. Wire a flasher relay inline to pulse the pump. Use a EGT guage with relay alarm switch to activate the pump. This does a outstanding job of moderating/stopping EGT climb when it spikes up to your maximum safety threshold. You do however need a larger water tank than the 1L tank that most of these washer kits have. ...............Supposedly water will erode the turbo vanes, so one day in the distant future your turbo may be degraded by the water injection. One forum said it takes 80000 miles to erode...........for me I"m running a $125 China TD04 so if I get 80K miles I"m real happy...............................None of my solutions are for "making maximum power with a turbo" they are for helping avoid engine damage during those times when EGT's are spiking, or you aren't paying attention to the EGT guage.

 

[FJBen]

Intercooling is most effective at generally keeping EGT's lower no matter ambient. The unconventional intercooler method for the 70 with not enough room is air to water with your heat exchanger being a radiator under/on your roof rack with 3/8 copper lines going up along your snorkel/windshield frame .

Water/methanol injection to protect against high EGTs on the occasion they spike and you aren't paying attention is very cheap/ easy. Buy a universal windshield washer pump. Use one nozzle to spray into the front of the intake near the turbo. Wire a flasher relay inline to pulse the pump. Use a EGT guage with relay alarm switch to activate the pump. This does a outstanding job of moderating/stopping EGT climb when it spikes up to your maximum safety threshold. You do however need a larger water tank than the 1L tank that most of these washer kits have. ...............Supposedly water will erode the turbo vanes, so one day in the distant future your turbo may be degraded by the water injection. One forum said it takes 80000 miles to erode...........for me I"m running a $125 China TD04 so if I get 80K miles I"m real happy...............................None of my solutions are for "making maximum power with a turbo" they are for helping avoid engine damage during those times when EGT's are spiking, or you aren't paying attention to the EGT guage.

Lots of ways to moderate EGT with water/meth. I’m not going to run preturbo, Injust don’t like the idea.

I think windshield washer pumps are way too low of pressure to atomize the water correctly. Most of the pumps are running 150-200psi and a washer pump only runs around 30 - 60.
I’m sure they still cool because they are pushing water “mist” into the system which takes heat out, but longevity might not be the best with less than optimal flow.

I have seen less numbers for how long it takes to erode a turbo. Personally I’m staying away from pre-turbo.

If I do it, I will probably get both a cheaper way and a $$$ way to see the difference.

 

[cruiserdan]

I'm using a Flojet 90 PSI pump with a 45 degree 14GPH stainless steel oil-fired boiler nozzle. This is on a 1FZ and it is injecting pre throttlebody.

I had supercharger overhauled at ~113,000 miles and the guy that did it for me said it was the cleanest one inside that he had ever seen.

 

[robmobile73]

Lots of ways to moderate EGT with water/meth. I’m not going to run preturbo, Injust don’t like the idea.

I think windshield washer pumps are way too low of pressure to atomize the water correctly. Most of the pumps are running 150-200psi and a washer pump only runs around 30 - 60.
I’m sure they still cool because they are pushing water “mist” into the system which takes heat out, but longevity might not be the best with less than optimal flow.

I have seen less numbers for how long it takes to erode a turbo. Personally I’m staying away from pre-turbo.

If I do it, I will probably get both a cheaper way and a $$$ way to see the difference.

Post turbo with a washer pump would probably not work well which is why I didn't do it. Pre turbo it is mixed and atomized completely by the turbo. For me it was a cheap easy thing to try. I think that water sprayed into the intake at times when EGT's are peaking in sufficient amounts to stop climbing EGTs will also reduce power. It will however allow increased fueling/increased power in most situations until EGT's get to high and then comes water injection to save your engine from your right foot. Modern ECU controlled engines have enough sensors and controls to accomplish this without water injection. If you inject methanol which burns as well as cools you might actually increase power. The window washer fluid with methanol does work a bit better than straight water....My turbo is literally a $99-125 ebay china special. If I erode the blades prematurely, I really don't care. Some spend over $500 to more than a thousand$ on a turbo with special custom compressor wheels etc... If I was one of those guys I wouldn't think of water before the turbo. I wouldn't do it if I was a factory only turbo guy knowing it would cost me $400+ for another turbo.....................I wasn't about to spend hundreds of $$ to try out water injection. I did enjoy spending the $40 or so and learning from my experiment.

 

[FJBen]

I'm using a Flojet 90 PSI pump with a 45 degree 14GPH stainless steel oil-fired boiler nozzle. This is on a 1FZ and it is injecting pre throttlebody.

I had supercharger overhauled at ~113,000 miles and the guy that did it for me said it was the cleanest one inside that he had ever seen.

That is one of the good benefits I’ve read about how it cleans things out nicely. 14gph would be about 7 times the nozzle for the 13bt

 

[FJBen]

So tired of wind…

Big old dead tree blew over and took down some pasture fence on Friday. Time to get the chainsaw and cruiser out.

BJ74, 8274 to the rescue. Winch works fantastic.

My daughter then put the cruiser/winch to good use while we were working on another vehicle.

Same hammock, same kid (missing my other daughter) different cruiser and house 16 years apart.

And of course a completely natural, non-edited photo of my cruiser.