- Thread starter
- #41
I think I'm going to unsubscribe from my own thread lol
160amp ACE Alternator info and install
- Thread starter Stevesnj
- Start date
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I don't think that it has a delta wound stator because of the use of 4 diode pairs. In a wye wound alternator, you can also rectify the current at the common connection of the 3 phases producing a little more power at low RPMs. Most alternators since the late 80s take advantage of this.
some alternators use the current at the common pole to run the idiot light charging indicator.
The other reason I think that they use the stock wye configuration is that there is an over riding desire to produce more voltage at idle RPM so that the lights don't dim and the battery discharges at idle.
I rewired a Ford large case alternator into a delta configuration for use as a welder, but I did not notice any difference in its welding ability compared to the wye. You still needed to rev it up over 3,000 RPM to run a decent bead either way.
some alternators use the current at the common pole to run the idiot light charging indicator.
The other reason I think that they use the stock wye configuration is that there is an over riding desire to produce more voltage at idle RPM so that the lights don't dim and the battery discharges at idle.
I rewired a Ford large case alternator into a delta configuration for use as a welder, but I did not notice any difference in its welding ability compared to the wye. You still needed to rev it up over 3,000 RPM to run a decent bead either way.
- Thread starter
- #43
So an update, as you know ACE sent me an 180 amp alternator to calm my fears over their stated claims. And I just got to opening it and it is noticeably heavier and also larger than the claimed 160amp they originally sent me. The pics below show the increased core (shell) size. If this translates into the alternator being able to have the proper innards I don't know but from the sounds of posts on this thread the bigger the overall size of the alternator the ability to put in internals for higher amperage output. I wasn't able to measure the ears on the alternator but eying them up they seem to be a match in distance. The weight of the 180 to the 160 amp is noticeable, i don't have a scale to get their weight difference.
Regulator size is also larger on the 180.
So the dimensions are;
160amp
Diameter: 17 7/8"
Rectifier 'B' terminal size: 1/4"
180amp
Diameter: 19 1/4""
Rectifier 'B' terminal size: 3/8"
Regulator size is also larger on the 180.
So the dimensions are;
160amp
Diameter: 17 7/8"
Rectifier 'B' terminal size: 1/4"
180amp
Diameter: 19 1/4""
Rectifier 'B' terminal size: 3/8"
- Thread starter
- #44
Some more pics...
height difference and overall size from above
height difference and overall size from above
ElPolloBlanco
SILVER Star
I think My brain just exploded.
- Thread starter
- #46
haha, tell me about it. He's definitely well versed in alternators
1973Guppie
Supporting Vendor
what is the meaning of life?.....
Are we having fun yet?
1973Guppie
Supporting Vendor
lol, just messin with ya........
It looks like their claims may have dropped to 140 amps now? 1997 alternator. 1994 alternator.
Also if you click on their storefront link they have this Note:
"A NOTE TO OUR CUSTOMERS ABOUT HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATORS: High Amp Alternators reach their full power @1200 RPM.
At engine idle(@600 RPM)-these High Amp units will provide you with a reliable and steady 90 Amp output."
I had posted some questions and felt like I was leading this thread further astray. Is that possible? Before I could delete it Pin_Head in post #42 was good enough to respond. That is why his comments seem out of place. The reason I repost it now is seeing the 140 amp claim now is close to the 138 amp math that I had worked out if that is the way these things work. The claim of full amps at 1200 rpm's also seems like that would lean more toward the delta wound.
Below is a basically what I had said.
I'm trying to understand the technical side of what was done to this alternator but know very little of that end of things.
From post #10 "-Stator is upgraded to '3 wire' winding from the stock."
I take this to mean the stock stator is wye wound and they are switching or just rewiring to a delta wound stator. "3 wire" to me means delta and "upgraded from the stock" I take to mean changed to something different from stock. Alternator stators are bascially either wye(star) or delta wound so I take it from the above that stock would be wye. By the way, I think "changed to" would be better than saying upgraded.
A delta wound stator allows more current (amp) flow at low rpm's. A wye wound stator allows more voltage at low rpm's. I think I read somewhere that a delta connection will produce about 58 percent of the voltage output and 173 percent of the current (amp) output of a wye connection with the same windings. So the good news is, and just using rough figures, if the output at idle is 10 amps wye then the output would be about 17 amps delta. 10 * 1.73 = 17.3. I don't know what happens at higher rpm's but even if this still held true then it should be around 138 amps tops? Stock 80 amp * 1.73 = 138.4. They said they do not add any
stator windings. From post #10 "-The stator is new with new copper windings, they do not add on or clean any windings."
From post #10 "-Then each alternator is tested at between 600-750 rpm then @ 1200-1500 rpm on a Snap-On tester that uses a load and not just calculates it based on the rpm for more accuracy and uses an ECU
simulator to simulate vehicle system load."
Perhaps because of the delta stator winding which favors more amps at lower rpm's this is where they did the tests?
From post #10 -Rectifier is upped to 4 diodes
I think there is a way to install a diode to fool the voltage regulator in to seeing slightly lower voltage thereby forcing it to adjust the alternator voltage. This could be done because of the lower voltage from the delta stator winding.
The negative is another diode would mean more heat.
Wake up now!
Bill
Also if you click on their storefront link they have this Note:
"A NOTE TO OUR CUSTOMERS ABOUT HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATORS: High Amp Alternators reach their full power @1200 RPM.
At engine idle(@600 RPM)-these High Amp units will provide you with a reliable and steady 90 Amp output."
I had posted some questions and felt like I was leading this thread further astray. Is that possible? Before I could delete it Pin_Head in post #42 was good enough to respond. That is why his comments seem out of place. The reason I repost it now is seeing the 140 amp claim now is close to the 138 amp math that I had worked out if that is the way these things work. The claim of full amps at 1200 rpm's also seems like that would lean more toward the delta wound.
Below is a basically what I had said.
I'm trying to understand the technical side of what was done to this alternator but know very little of that end of things.
From post #10 "-Stator is upgraded to '3 wire' winding from the stock."
I take this to mean the stock stator is wye wound and they are switching or just rewiring to a delta wound stator. "3 wire" to me means delta and "upgraded from the stock" I take to mean changed to something different from stock. Alternator stators are bascially either wye(star) or delta wound so I take it from the above that stock would be wye. By the way, I think "changed to" would be better than saying upgraded.
A delta wound stator allows more current (amp) flow at low rpm's. A wye wound stator allows more voltage at low rpm's. I think I read somewhere that a delta connection will produce about 58 percent of the voltage output and 173 percent of the current (amp) output of a wye connection with the same windings. So the good news is, and just using rough figures, if the output at idle is 10 amps wye then the output would be about 17 amps delta. 10 * 1.73 = 17.3. I don't know what happens at higher rpm's but even if this still held true then it should be around 138 amps tops? Stock 80 amp * 1.73 = 138.4. They said they do not add any
stator windings. From post #10 "-The stator is new with new copper windings, they do not add on or clean any windings."
From post #10 "-Then each alternator is tested at between 600-750 rpm then @ 1200-1500 rpm on a Snap-On tester that uses a load and not just calculates it based on the rpm for more accuracy and uses an ECU
simulator to simulate vehicle system load."
Perhaps because of the delta stator winding which favors more amps at lower rpm's this is where they did the tests?
From post #10 -Rectifier is upped to 4 diodes
I think there is a way to install a diode to fool the voltage regulator in to seeing slightly lower voltage thereby forcing it to adjust the alternator voltage. This could be done because of the lower voltage from the delta stator winding.
The negative is another diode would mean more heat.
Wake up now!
Bill
- Thread starter
- #51
thanks for the info, I think, lol. Any info is appreciated especially that will help other mud members. A little out of my league but learning....slowly.
Steven,
This is a great thread, you got a little beat up in the process, thanks for being a good sport.
My question for PinHead is which alternator should one purchase in order to get the 160 or 180 amp output?
Zona
This is a great thread, you got a little beat up in the process, thanks for being a good sport.
My question for PinHead is which alternator should one purchase in order to get the 160 or 180 amp output?
Zona
Pick the one that Toyota says is 160 or 180 amp. They don't have the incentive to misrepresent the stats and they have a lot more to lose if they did misrepresent them.
Delta and Wye are the two different ways that the 3 wiring coils of an alternator can be connected to produce 3 phase power. The wiring makes a difference in how much voltage or current an alternator of the same size and number of windings can produce at a given RPM. In the Wye configuration, it is biased to produce voltage, while in the Delta, it is biased for producing current. Automotive alternators use the Wye configuration because it is more important that they produce a voltage higher than battery voltage at low PM. It isn't that complicated:
http://www.civicsolar.com/forum/107...d-and-delta-configured-three-phase-connection
http://www.civicsolar.com/forum/107...d-and-delta-configured-three-phase-connection
I sure hope you meant circumference, otherwise i'm never gonna get this thing to fit under my hood.
And now that I've gotten to kick you in the balls I would like to say thank you for being such a good sport and posting your finds to this thread. I know that many of us are eager to see what you come up with and its nice to have somebody else pioneer new stuff.
- Thread starter
- #57
I sure hope you meant circumference, otherwise i'm never gonna get this thing to fit under my hood.
Yeh I don't mind, I deal with 120 different personalities everyday, this forum is a light weight..lol
And yes thats in inches..lol
^ I deal with firefighters every other day so I know what you mean. There's nobody on this thread that even comes close to that level of harassment.
- Thread starter
- #59
So i made progress today but not yet complete. I still have the wiring to do. Snow and winds and no garage prevented me from going any further. Anyway the 180amp is installed with very minor cutting of the adjusting slider bracket.So far all seems good. I will have to wire it up next. Below are the pics of the install. The Toyota belts fit just as they fit on the stock alternator. There is also room between the coolant spout above the alternator, enough to put my hand between them. Also the pics show the bottom of the alternator. The threaded ear that the adjuster bolt threads into was blocked by the bottom of the adjuster bracket gap so I used my angle grinder to cut away the metal and worked great.
- Thread starter
- #60
installed without the wiring....
