That will backfire into a 'engineers don't understand the real world' argument
12 Hole Injector Upgrade - Finally Tested
- Thread starter suprarx7nut
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Thanks for testing this. I believe the data is irrefutable (much to my disappointment!) but it does beg the question, why did Denso/Toyota go to the 12 hole design if it makes no difference? Surely there must be a reason.
- Thread starter
- #63
Thanks!
I think it's important to clarify this point. I'm 100% sure the increase in holes in the injectors is beneficial in the right engine and that Toyota/Denso knows exactly what they're doing, far better than anyone here. Nobody is suggesting that the 12 hole injectors are superfluous when installed in an engine designed for it. Manufacturing methods have also improved over time so it's become more practical to manufacture smaller holed injectors.
This test was about determining if they provide any measurable retrofit improvement in the 100 series.
I sense @nukegoat is right here and that no answer is the satisfactory one.
That being said, without reading my resume here, I'm a degreed mechanical (not automotive specifically) engineer and currently spend my weekdays working on data analytics for measurement devices. I think I've got relevant experience and training, but a certificate from a university and a certain tenure of employment in a certain role doesn't make anyone infallible.
Don't take my word for it, run the data yourself if you need. It's all public and the point is for everyone to learn. If you can find an interesting trend that adds additional insight, please share it with us!
Whooops! My comment was pure sarcasm.
- Thread starter
- #65
Haha, yes, I read it as sarcasm. I debated leaving it be, but figured a non-response might give @dirtydeeds a scapegoat for the test results not matching expectations.
Are you an automotive engineer? Have you tested 12 hole versus 4 hole? How long have you built 4.7’s for? I’ve been building them since 2003 and have built hundreds of them.
my arguments are based on experience
Just curious about YOU
Scapegoat not needed. Just helping guys understand what they’re reading.
- Thread starter
- #68
Fair enough.
You've built hundreds? Well, I've built 100k 2UZ's. 4-hole injectors feel better, trust me.../s
If you really want to contribute to this discussion, strap the next 2UZ you build to an engine dyno. I do actually think that there could be a measurable difference (~3-5%) in low end torque on an engine dyno but I think the buffer of a bulky trans/t-case/diff/tires would make the difference unperceivable by a human driver.
If you really want to contribute to this discussion, strap the next 2UZ you build to an engine dyno. I do actually think that there could be a measurable difference (~3-5%) in low end torque on an engine dyno but I think the buffer of a bulky trans/t-case/diff/tires would make the difference unperceivable by a human driver.
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I have all that. Check out DirtyDeedsIndustries on YouTube. You’ll have to go back a long ways.
Also check out tundra solutions. Tons of videos have been posted of 2uz on dyno by me. My name on all the forums is either escondidotundra or DirtyDeeds.
feel free to hit me back with any questions. 760-877-4234
Is it possible you're biased because you are making a profit off selling these products? Just asking.
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I hear what you’re saying but combustion engines are just air pumps. Maybe, maybe if the intake manifold had some design in it that helped the 12 hole injectors but I kinda doubt it.
Just like a naturopath, chiropractor, or homeopathic counselor, the scientific data be damned, you have loads of anecdotal experience supporting the products you sell.Are you an automotive engineer? Have you tested 12 hole versus 4 hole? How long have you built 4.7’s for? I’ve been building them since 2003 and have built hundreds of them.
my arguments are based on experience
lol
When we split an atom amazing things can happen, but when we split hairs...
Looking at all the evidence its all marginal differences, and for me it's all "meh". Great work on the tests! Many people have irrational or emotional attachments to many things in their lives, and whatever makes them sleep better at night, so be it. I think 12 hole injectors are one of them. Why stop at 12? At what point are there too many holes? I think it was previously explained there are diminishing returns after 4, but I also might believe essential oils can cure stage 4 brain cancer.
Looking at all the evidence its all marginal differences, and for me it's all "meh". Great work on the tests! Many people have irrational or emotional attachments to many things in their lives, and whatever makes them sleep better at night, so be it. I think 12 hole injectors are one of them. Why stop at 12? At what point are there too many holes? I think it was previously explained there are diminishing returns after 4, but I also might believe essential oils can cure stage 4 brain cancer.
MLMs!
Oh, yes, nothing beats a great pyramid scheme. Ummm...I mean legitimate business that doesn't try in the slightest to scam stay at home moms and dads that look to get rich quick. <------hidden message in here in relation to easy HP increase claims to our rigs. Not that anything is wrong with them. Snake oil has been around forever. Forever.
Perhaps it was my post as I remember commenting that installing my 12-holes and starting the truck up for the first time I thought it died because it was so smooth. During the dyno test I made a similar comment to @suprarx7nut right after we swapped in his freshly cleaned 4-hole stock injectors. It really did idle just as good and smoothly on that initial start. My truck had 200k at the time of changing the injectors so obviously they had some issues.
The inevitable forward march of progress. EPA and international testing gets stricter and stricter, MPG becomes more valuable for marketing, etc. 12-holes do atomized fuel better, because the holes are physically smaller. There's no monkey business. There are thousands of variables in an internal combustion engine that affect the final result so it's completely expected that when we change one of those variables nothing happens. Sometimes you get lucky. Never know til you try.
Either way I ended up with a smoother running, better engine for about the same price suprarx7nut did and we got to meet eachother. Win win.
- Thread starter
- #78
Agreed. 10/10 would dyno again.
yes and no. it will show up as unburned hc in the exhaust stream and your af sensor will detect that so yes you will see incomplete combustion. no because the ecu is always adjusting the fuel trim for a target a/f ratio of 14.7:1 so it is normal to see variations either rich or lean and the correction to follow.