12 Hole Injector Upgrade - Finally Tested

[dirtydeeds]

Is it possible you're biased because you are making a profit off selling these products? Just asking.

I actually am biased. But not on that sense. I am biased towards the injectors since they make your truck drive way better.

I sell hundreds of exhaust systems per month for tundras.

I’ve sold 2-3 sets of 12 hole injectors for Land Cruisers, ever. If this was about profit for me, I would be homeless

If you’re not interested in getting injectors for your land cruiser, no problem, it truly is your loss, but accusing me of trying to sell something with unscrupulous intentions tells me a lot about you. I haven’t been in business for myself for over 25 years by ripping people off.

 

[dirtydeeds]

yes and no. it will show up as unburned hc in the exhaust stream and your af sensor will detect that so yes you will see incomplete combustion. no because the ecu is always adjusting the fuel trim for a target a/f ratio of 14.7:1 so it is normal to see variations either rich or lean and the correction to follow.

I disagree with your assumption. The afr sensor isn’t finely tuned enough. Neither is fuel trims.

For example, you can add 10% extra ethanol to fuel that is already e10 and it shows ZERO change in fuel trims. Matter of fact another 20% ethanol on top of e10 fuel barely shows up as a change in both long term and short term fuel trim, yet afr remains EXACTLY where it was on regular e10 gas.

Try adding 10% ethanol to your fuel with something that is carbureted and you need to use the next jet size bigger. Add 20% and you have to go up 2-3 jet sizes.

This is only one example of where assumptions are being taken as facts with this ‘testing’. Try testing on the road, not strapped down to a dyno.

The that resolution being assumed in our 20 year old ecu isn’t what you think it is. LOL. Look at video game consoles of those days compared to now and you can assume the resolution is very blurry and raw compared to modern ecu’s.

 

[dirtydeeds]

When we split an atom amazing things can happen, but when we split hairs...

Looking at all the evidence its all marginal differences, and for me it's all "meh". Great work on the tests! Many people have irrational or emotional attachments to many things in their lives, and whatever makes them sleep better at night, so be it. I think 12 hole injectors are one of them. Why stop at 12? At what point are there too many holes? I think it was previously explained there are diminishing returns after 4, but I also might believe essential oils can cure stage 4 brain cancer.

Personally, if I could run 30 hole injectors at 300 psi, I would. It’s more efficient. But since they don’t exist I’ll settle for 12 hole injectors

 

[dirtydeeds]

Just like a naturopath, chiropractor, or homeopathic counselor, the scientific data be damned, you have loads of anecdotal experience supporting the products you sell.

lol

It’s odd how you bring up ‘anecdotal experience’ and that’s all that I’m supposedly using to support my point of view.

That sir is incorrect though. There is a lot more to how a truck drives than strapping it down to a dyno. No OEM on earth only straps a vehicle to a dyno and calls it good. Chassis or engine dyno. They all actually drive their vehicles before releasing them for sale.

maybe it’s possible this ‘testing’ performed only on a dyno and not on the street at all is inconclusive. Hmmmm......

And maybe physics don’t actually exist and a finer mist of fuel doesn’t actually vaporize easier than a Squirt. I’ll refer to anecdotal evidence rather than physics maybe?? See my point?

 

[bigredmachine]

so are you implying that the af sensor is not going to control the fuel trim? I will agree that the refresh rate of a 2000 lc vs a 2020 lc will be different but you can still watch the af sensor on the scantool and see changes if you active test and adjust the fuel trims mamualy so why would you not be able to see that under normal operating conditions

 

[J1000]

ill put up some cash for round 2 of testing, good work on the test

If we do round 2 then we're definitely testing 85 octane vs. 91 octane vs. E85 also!

 

[bigredmachine]

If we do round 2 then we're definitely testing 85 octane vs. 91 octane vs. E85 also!

might as well do some vp q15 while you at it or vp 113

 

[dirtydeeds]

so are you implying that the af sensor is not going to control the fuel trim? I will agree that the refresh rate of a 2000 lc vs a 2020 lc will be different but you can still watch the af sensor on the scantool and see changes if you active test and adjust the fuel trims mamualy so why would you not be able to see that under normal operating conditions

I’m not implying anything. I’m telling you that the way the truck drives isn’t reflected in afr or fuel trims the way that you and whomever performed these tests are assuming that they do.

 

[suprarx7nut]

I’m not implying anything. I’m telling you that the way the truck drives isn’t reflected in afr or fuel trims the way that you and whomever performed these tests are assuming that they do.

Can i ask a favor?

Can you please describe the improvement you refer to in terms of a measurable variable with units? If yes, reply with those units in square brackets. IE [fuel flow/hp], [hp], [delta tq/delta throttle], delay from throttle to applied tq , etc...

Keep it short and sweet if you can.

Edit: Removed strikethrough on the last line, not sure what happened there.

 

[dirtydeeds]

Can i ask a favor?

Can you please describe the improvement you refer to in terms of a measurable variable with units? If yes, reply with those units in square brackets. IE [fuel flow/hp], [hp], [delta tq/delta throttle], delay from throttle to applied tq , etc...

Keep it short and sweet if you can.

Tell ya what, post up something that isn’t an assumption and I’ll do the same.

I see your ‘findings’ and I hear your assumptions. And I even see and hear the logic behind what y’all are thinking.

But it’s wrong. Our trucks change what you feel based on variables not considered by your testing. Your ‘testing’ didn’t take that into account.

While you have effectively mapped afr and fuel trims, I’m telling you the things you’ve mapped don’t change the way the truck feels.

I’ve proven that I’m an expert by doing what I do for almost 2 decades. I’ve built 2uz’s. I’m arguing facts versus assumptions with enthusiasts, not with experts regarding 2uz.

No offense, but until you actually road test what you’re dyno testing I’ll point out where you’re mistaken so that anybody reading this can at least see there is another side to this story.

to summarize:

An engineer, whom is not an automotive engineer, used software not designed for an automobile, asked opinions of ‘experts’ (random dyno guy) but was not willing to take advice from a proven expert specializing in 2uz-Fe (that’s me), tested afr and fuel trims, but did not road test said vehicle, and now the owner of the vehicle retracts his opinion of 12 hole injectors based on the above. And guys not seeing both sides might screw themselves out of a great mod thst makes their truck drive better, with more throttle response, better tip in, better shifting, and you drive around everywhere you go stepping on the gas less, more of the time.

the last paragraph is exactly why I didn’t jump right in and offer up a set of injectors during our initial phone call. I knew the proposed testing couldn’t tell how the truck drives. This is not an assumption. This is the result of 100’s of hours of actual testing of 2uz

 

[Battleship]

This is the result of 100’s of hours of actual testing of 2uz

There will be a big collection of 2UZ's in Silverton at the end of July. You could take a few sets of 12 holes and, after finding volunteers, swap them/not swap them on a randomized, blinded basis and see if you can produce consistent results in a scientific way. Even offer a set for the raffle, who knows? (You'd have to get it cleared by Stan and Chris - it isn't my show.)

An assumption people often make is that if someone has been doing something a long time, then they are an expert in that thing.

 

[Eyedaho]

you drive around everywhere you go stepping on the gas less, more of the time.

If that statement is true, then will it be reflected in increased MPG? That would be a quantifiable difference between 4-hole and 12-hole injectors. I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that if you can drive around everywhere depressing the throttle less, then you will objectively see improved fuel economy.

 

[dirtydeeds]

If that statement is true, then will it be reflected in increased MPG? That would be a quantifiable difference between 4-hole and 12-hole injectors. I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that if you can drive around everywhere depressing the throttle less, then you will objectively see improved fuel economy.

Exactly!

 

[spc7669]

New here and certainly no expert.

I have a set of Keith’s injectors on the way and should be driving with them next week after the install.
I went with his injectors for a few reasons:
1-OEM injectors were well over a grand.
2-Rock Auto has Densos which would’ve been a little over 600 bucks, but they only had 3 available.
3-I called a Keith, paid half the Rock Auto price and they were on the way within 48 hours.
4-Dirty Deeds has an excellent reputation in the Tundra community. The customer service I received was great.
I’ll post up my experience actually driving them in a week or two.

 

[devlooper]

It’s odd how you bring up ‘anecdotal experience’ and that’s all that I’m supposedly using to support my point of view.

That sir is incorrect though. There is a lot more to how a truck drives than strapping it down to a dyno. No OEM on earth only straps a vehicle to a dyno and calls it good. Chassis or engine dyno. They all actually drive their vehicles before releasing them for sale.

maybe it’s possible this ‘testing’ performed only on a dyno and not on the street at all is inconclusive. Hmmmm......

And maybe physics don’t actually exist and a finer mist of fuel doesn’t actually vaporize easier than a Squirt. I’ll refer to anecdotal evidence rather than physics maybe?? See my point?

hol up....

how can you say the tests these guys did (which are very scientific might I add) are trumped by your "The truck feels better on the road" comments?

you literally cannot compare actual data, produced in a variable free (or as much as possible) environment with someones opinion.

You sound like the anti-vaxxer moms on facebook.

"All this science and medical data backing up vaccines... NAH BECKY TOLD ME AT THE LAST AVON SALE THE FLU VACCINE GAVE HER KID DOWNS"

Until you can provide actual hard data on what "the truck feels better with 12 hole injectors" means then its all opinion.


edit: I'm no expert in this, but seeing the numbers laid out makes me believe in the numbers more than one guys opinion (which apparently sell 12 hole injectors) saying these guys who put in the time, money and effort to give hard scientific data dont know what they're talking about because they didn't test "how it feels"

How it feels is not something you can test and back up with numbers. How it feels is an opinion and should stay out of data.

These trucks aren't race cars, they're not suppose to be tracked, and to be honest, I dont care what their 0-60 is. I'm looking for reliability and OEM injectors are reliable.

Have your 12 hole injectors gone over a million miles in a single truck? Have they been in trucks in the hottest climates in the world, what about the coldest?

I understand you're trying to save face because you sell these things, but to refute these guys time, effort, money, and hard work by saying "12 hole feel better" is absolutely dishonest of you, and downright ridiculous.

 

[SlowBuild]

Exactly!

Then why does this mpg improvement remain undocumented with all the upgrades that have happened? Surely some of the Tundra tuner guys must be tracking this? I know mpg increase/decrease is hard to prove in real world driving but if you track it for long enough, trends should emerge.

Unless they don’t.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Can i ask a favor?

Can you please describe the improvement you refer to in terms of a measurable variable with units? If yes, reply with those units in square brackets. IE [fuel flow/hp], [hp], [delta tq/delta throttle], delay from throttle to applied tq , etc...

Keep it short and sweet if you can.

Edit: Removed strikethrough on the last line, not sure what happened there.

Tell ya what, post up something that isn’t an assumption and I’ll do the same.

I see your ‘findings’ and I hear your assumptions. And I even see and hear the logic behind what y’all are thinking.

But it’s wrong. Our trucks change what you feel based on variables not considered by your testing. Your ‘testing’ didn’t take that into account.

While you have effectively mapped afr and fuel trims, I’m telling you the things you’ve mapped don’t change the way the truck feels.

I’ve proven that I’m an expert by doing what I do for almost 2 decades. I’ve built 2uz’s. I’m arguing facts versus assumptions with enthusiasts, not with experts regarding 2uz.

No offense, but until you actually road test what you’re dyno testing I’ll point out where you’re mistaken so that anybody reading this can at least see there is another side to this story.

to summarize:

An engineer, whom is not an automotive engineer, used software not designed for an automobile, asked opinions of ‘experts’ (random dyno guy) but was not willing to take advice from a proven expert specializing in 2uz-Fe (that’s me), tested afr and fuel trims, but did not road test said vehicle, and now the owner of the vehicle retracts his opinion of 12 hole injectors based on the above. And guys not seeing both sides might screw themselves out of a great mod thst makes their truck drive better, with more throttle response, better tip in, better shifting, and you drive around everywhere you go stepping on the gas less, more of the time.

the last paragraph is exactly why I didn’t jump right in and offer up a set of injectors during our initial phone call. I knew the proposed testing couldn’t tell how the truck drives. This is not an assumption. This is the result of 100’s of hours of actual testing of 2uz

Sigh. So much to address here, I'm not sure what to do. At some point, I'm the fool for continuing the volley. In the spirit of keeping it short and trying to keep it friendly and positive, here it goes.

I asked if you had a variable and your answer appears to be "no". It's ok to say you don't know. We're all here to learn (hopefully). If you can feel it, but don't know how to measure it just say so. If you know the variable just tell us. There's no reason to play games. We want to learn!

What about OBD2 data and Spotfire (software used for analytics here) makes it unfit for this data?

If that statement is true, then will it be reflected in increased MPG? That would be a quantifiable difference between 4-hole and 12-hole injectors. I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that if you can drive around everywhere depressing the throttle less, then you will objectively see improved fuel economy.

Exactly!

This is easy to track. Someone needs to track mileage for a long period (I've tracked mileage religiously for the last 10 years) with freshly cleaned 4 hole and then freshly cleaned 12 hole. I just had my 4 hole cleaned and would be happy to test 12 hole later on once we have a good baseline with the 4 hole.

Statistics is where this really shines. It's a perfect application for a simple population comparison. We could run an ANOVA and determine if a statistical difference exists and if so, what our confidence interval is.

Then why does this mpg improvement remain undocumented with all the upgrades that have happened? Surely some of the Tundra tuner guys must be tracking this? I know mpg increase/decrease is hard to prove in real world driving but if you track it for long enough, trends should emerge.

Unless they don’t.

If I were selling these, I would go above and beyond to create this data set. It's free data to collect, just takes time to run through enough tanks of gas and some statistics.

 

[nukegoat]

Sigh. So much to address here, I'm not sure what to do. At some point, I'm the fool for continuing the volley. In the spirit of keeping it short and trying to keep it friendly and positive, here it goes.

I asked if you had a variable and your answer appears to be "no". It's ok to say you don't know. We're all here to learn (hopefully). If you can feel it, but don't know how to measure it just say so. If you know the variable just tell us. There's no reason to play games. We want to learn!

What about OBD2 data and Spotfire (software used for analytics here) makes it unfit for this data?




This is easy to track. Someone needs to track mileage for a long period (I've tracked mileage religiously for the last 10 years) with freshly cleaned 4 hole and then freshly cleaned 12 hole. I just had my 4 hole cleaned and would be happy to test 12 hole later on once we have a good baseline with the 4 hole.

Statistics is where this really shines. It's a perfect application for a simple population comparison. We could run an ANOVA and determine if a statistical difference exists and if so, what our confidence interval is.



If I were selling these, I would go above and beyond to create this data set. It's free data to collect, just takes time to run through enough tanks of gas and some statistics.

You've won the debate here, and also the sportsmanship trophy

 

[bigredmachine]

you drive around everywhere you go stepping on the gas less, more of the time

if that's the case do you or any of your customers have before and after 12 pt injector mpg numbers, if your using less throttle to accelerate at the same rate then there should be some correlation with better mpg even if it is a small difference.

I’m not implying anything

you kinda did, the af sensor is there to give feed back to the ecu to control fuel trim. weather it feels different or not is a separate argument, my point was that you may not necessarily be able to see fuel trim differences or at least enough of a trend as fuel trim is changing based off of af sensor voltages and amperages

 

[dirtydeeds]

There will be a big collection of 2UZ's in Silverton at the end of July. You could take a few sets of 12 holes and, after finding volunteers, swap them/not swap them on a randomized, blinded basis and see if you can produce consistent results in a scientific way. Even offer a set for the raffle, who knows? (You'd have to get it cleared by Stan and Chris - it isn't my show.)

An assumption people often make is that if someone has been doing something a long time, then they are an expert in that thing.

I love helping people brotha. If a gu

hol up....

how can you say the tests these guys did (which are very scientific might I add) are trumped by your "The truck feels better on the road" comments?

you literally cannot compare actual data, produced in a variable free (or as much as possible) environment with someones opinion.

You sound like the anti-vaxxer moms on facebook.

"All this science and medical data backing up vaccines... NAH BECKY TOLD ME AT THE LAST AVON SALE THE FLU VACCINE GAVE HER KID DOWNS"

Until you can provide actual hard data on what "the truck feels better with 12 hole injectors" means then its all opinion.


edit: I'm no expert in this, but seeing the numbers laid out makes me believe in the numbers more than one guys opinion (which apparently sell 12 hole injectors) saying these guys who put in the time, money and effort to give hard scientific data dont know what they're talking about because they didn't test "how it feels"

How it feels is not something you can test and back up with numbers. How it feels is an opinion and should stay out of data.

These trucks aren't race cars, they're not suppose to be tracked, and to be honest, I dont care what their 0-60 is. I'm looking for reliability and OEM injectors are reliable.

Have your 12 hole injectors gone over a million miles in a single truck? Have they been in trucks in the hottest climates in the world, what about the coldest?

I understand you're trying to save face because you sell these things, but to refute these guys time, effort, money, and hard work by saying "12 hole feel better" is absolutely dishonest of you, and downright ridiculous.

Have you ever compared 4 hole to 12 hole injectors? Or are you assuming also? There’s more to testing than whatcha read on the internet. While I agree their testing was very thorough, it is inconclusive. I highly recommend you test them for yourself then let us know whatcha think.

Also, hard reset your ecu, see how it drives. Add e85 at certain percentages and see how it drives. Matter of fact, test all variables of the above for hundreds of miles and see what you come up with.

Until then, I suggest your theory is based solely upon what ya have read on the internet and maybe you should consider seeing for yourself. That’s all I’m saying.

Also, accusing me of being dishonest when you don’t even know me, have never done business with me, and you have never done the years and years of testing that I have to help the 2uz community, makes you an ass.