ARCHIVE 100 Series Cat-back Exhaust (2 Viewers)

[NKP Garage]

lesgarten, you have to have a solid understanding of how power is made before you can understand why things are the way they are. The Land Cruisers' fuel and timing maps in the ECU are tuned extremely conservative. This is done so that they can work in all sorts of different conditions from one extreme temperature and elevation to another. They also last a very long time and take a beating well because they are tuned to make almost no power. This is not the case with the passenger cars, luxury cars, etc... Why do you think an IS350 puts down more power than a Land Cruiser which has a larger motor? You are missing a lot of the details and jumping to a conclusion.

Lexus LS 460 makes about 440HP, it is quiet. It is quiet because of the exhaust system, not because of high compression, or premium gas. I was referring to how quiet those cars are. It used to be accepted that Hi Po cars made lots of noise, not so anymore.

The LS460 does not make 440hp, The LS460 makes 385hp at the flywheel and much less at the tire (whp). The LS460 is also not making the maximum power it could make due to certain goals of the car such as keeping it quiet. If EMSPowered built an exhaust for the LS460 it would make a good amount more power, no question about it. That is a compromise the manufacturer makes when building the car. The LS460 is 1UR-FSE engine is also direct injection which allows for more timing advance without raising fuel octane. It is also a incorporates VVT-IE (intake and exhaust variable cams). It is an engine that is tuned (referring to ECU fuel/timing tuning) for more power than a Land Cruiser is.

You're saying there is no way to make more power and torque without the volume increasing.

I'm saying that the manufacturers are making quiet power.

No. I am saying that with changing only items in the exhaust path (headers, midpipes, exhaust), there is no way to make it quieter than the EMSPowered exhaust without sacrificing some power. A quieter muffler WILL be more restrictive and WILL decrease power output.

I have a Fabspeed on a Blown Porsche. You can drop a Tennis ball through it, literally. It is amazing how quiet it is, it's pretty too! Don't get me wrong, it's not silent, just much quieter than I expected when I bought it.

Your Porsche is a turbo engine. A turbo massively quiets down the exhaust tone. You can run a muffler 1/4 of the size on a turbo car compared to a non-turbo car and it will be nearly the same volume. Apples and oranges.

If you need more explanation of why things work the way they do I'd be happy to take the time to explain. Feel free to ask anything that comes to mind. Trust me, there are reasons we do things the way we do.

As I said in post #435 "If you're not sure what is right for you, give us a call and we can talk over your goals, what you want out of the system, and what you don't want. With that information we can make a recommendation for you that will best fit your situation." Not every person wants the same thing. Every person is different.

 

[lesgarten]

That's a pretty air-cooled engine!

Though I will say that my limited experience with engines (p-car or toyota) is that there is definitely a correlation between noise and max power (area under torque curve.) I'm sure that one can always make a relatively quiet exhaust, but to get "maximum" power out of the engine, it appears that the noise will get louder... (I've spent some time looking for "quiet" exhausts on the p-car side too, and I've based on all my research the ones that allow/make most power, are never the quiet ones... I've ended up with a relatively quiet Gemballa exhaust on mine, which leaves a bit on the table in terms of power, but is more quiet in the process.)

Interesting, what similar interests we have.

Look at how much HP Porsche makes, yet they have to make those cars Luxury quiet with no resonance while making outrageous amounts of HP and TQ. Pretty amazing.

 

[NKP Garage]

Interesting, what similar interests we have.

Look at how much HP Porsche makes, yet they have to make those cars Luxury quiet with no resonance while making outrageous amounts of HP and TQ. Pretty amazing.

A turbo is a giant cork in the exhaust. It drastically reduces sound output from the exhaust. You're just making blanket statements about completely unrelated setups now. Read my last post.

 

[lesgarten]

lesgarten, you have to have a solid understanding of how power is made before you can understand why things are the way they are. The Land Cruisers' fuel and timing maps in the ECU are tuned extremely conservative. This is done so that they can work in all sorts of different conditions from one extreme temperature and elevation to another. They also last a very long time and take a beating well because they are tuned to make almost no power. This is not the case with the passenger cars, luxury cars, etc... Why do you think an IS350 puts down more power than a Land Cruiser which has a larger motor? You are missing a lot of the details and jumping to a conclusion.


The LS460 does not make 440hp, The LS460 makes 385hp at the flywheel and much less at the tire (whp). The LS460 is also not making the maximum power it could make due to certain goals of the car such as keeping it quiet. If EMSPowered built an exhaust for the LS460 it would make a good amount more power, no question about it. That is a compromise the manufacturer makes when building the car. The LS460 is 1UR-FSE engine is also direct injection which allows for more timing advance without raising fuel octane. It is also a incorporates VVT-IE (intake and exhaust variable cams). It is an engine that is tuned (referring to ECU fuel/timing tuning) for more power than a Land Cruiser is.


No. I am saying that with changing only items in the exhaust path (headers, midpipes, exhaust), there is no way to make it quieter than the EMSPowered exhaust without sacrificing some power. A quieter muffler WILL be more restrictive and WILL decrease power output.


Your Porsche is a turbo engine. A turbo massively quiets down the exhaust tone. You can run a muffler 1/4 of the size on a turbo car compared to a non-turbo car and it will be nearly the same volume. Apples and oranges.

If you need more explanation of why things work the way they do I'd be happy to take the time to explain. Feel free to ask anything that comes to mind. Trust me, there are reasons we do things the way we do.

As I said in post #435 "If you're not sure what is right for you, give us a call and we can talk over your goals, what you want out of the system, and what you don't want. With that information we can make a recommendation for you that will best fit your situation." Not every person wants the same thing. Every person is different.

I think you are missing the point here, totally missing it.

Let's start with some facts that have nothing to do with me or my posts.

In the 80 and 100 series threads pertaining to your CATback/Mid pipe systems, some of your customers are complaining about noise and resonance. That is a fact. People are talking about taking the systems off. Those are not my posts. I would think you would be interested in this.

I don't need to call you because I've made up my mind what I want. Then it will most likely get modified somehow to work some of the drone out.

My point of the Lexus, or Porsche examples are that there are ways to make "good"(not Max) tractable HP and TQ and not have to deal with resonances or high decibels. Back in my day, the sixties on, to get 1 HP/cu" you always had prodigious amounts of noise. With the numerous refinements in engine design now, 1 HP/Cu" is not even worth bragging about and much more than that is made quietly now.

Of course everything is a compromise, but there are sweat spots where you can get something for "little" trade off. Your silencers are not the sweat spot according to a few who have resolved to do something different. It would be nice if you looked for a solution in light of the complaints you are getting. The silencers aren't cutting the mustard. You need a new trick.

For instance, one of the guys here who complained his system was loud and droning, tried your resonator or silencer or whatever you are calling it now. He didn't like the power killing effects of it.

I mentioned the Moroso SS Spiral Muffler that I had found in a similar thread in the 80 series forum. He seemed to like it. It got rid of some of the noise and drone with little if no perceptible power loss. Not a perfect solution but it's something.

I'm suggesting you try something similar. Post pictures of your silencer/resonator and it's obvious why that is not the most elegant of solutions.

WHY DON'T YOU POST A PIC OF IT HERE? SO EVERYTHING IS IN THE CLEAR?

I've asked you for it numerous times and you said you would provide it and you haven't to date. There are pix(sorta) in the 80 thread and it looks very restrictive.

I'm well aware of what the Turbo does on that motor, I was the builder...

Here's the before PIC:

Porsche 930 before

There may be a high end SS muffler out there that is packed with SS wool that would fit in that space. If not I will most likely go the Moroso route as well.

This is a different market from some of the Rice Rockets you modify.

 

[Bomar]

LES

If you want "Lexus" performance buy a LX470 exhaust system for your 02 since it is performance. But to get true performance over OEM...then the sound will change. If you want no performance then go back OE.

Since you want to beat a dead horse...Why is there RUF? Why did they build the CTR yellowbird back in the day? Because OE can't make the best of the best it take outside sources to build products.

I don't know EMS nor own any of there products but you can't make one exhaust to suit everyone's sound taste...

If you don't like the system then sell it or fix it.

BTW a turbo car you can run no muffler and it will have little to no sound....even on a 930.

 

[NKP Garage]

Les, if you'd like to continue the conversation I'm available by phone, PM or email. There is too much incorrect information being posted and muddying up the thread.

 

[lesgarten]

LES

If you want "Lexus" performance buy a LX470 exhaust system for your 02 since it is performance. But to get true performance over OEM...then the sound will change. If you want no performance then go back OE.

Since you want to beat a dead horse...Why is there RUF? Why did they build the CTR yellowbird back in the day? Because OE can't make the best of the best it take outside sources to build products.

I don't know EMS nor own any of there products but you can't make one exhaust to suit everyone's sound taste...

If you don't like the system then sell it or fix it.

BTW a turbo car you can run no muffler and it will have little to no sound....even on a 930.

A 930 with just a Turbo and open exhaust(Zork) idles at about 110-112 dB. That's a fact,I've measured mine. It will set off every Car Alarm at a Grocery store just idling thru the parking lot. Yes, a Turbo "helps", err a little. I never checked it after I added the Fabspeed for dB. But you can read a Newspaper thru the Fabspeed and it's MUCH, MUCH quieter, yet stil has the sportiness.

I'm responding to posts here by others BTW.

EMS makes Baffles/Silencers/Resonators to attenuate the drone a little. They will add Multiples of these throughout the system. But if you've seen one(Baffle), you might think they are a bad idea and there may be a better solution.

I've been looking over the MagnaFlow Round SS mufflers tonight. They cost the same amount that EMS charges for the Baffle. They look like the might work in the midpipe.

Here's a not so great picture of one ond of the baffle. It's a pipe with a disc w/holes on each end I surmise.

It's from this thread:https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/607357-moroso-spiral-flow-muffler-installation-resonator.html

 

[2000UZJ]

Baktash-

Could you add baffles to the 100's exhaust?

 

[NKP Garage]

Les...

Les, if you'd like to continue the conversation I'm available by phone, PM or email. There is too much incorrect information being posted and muddying up the thread.

 

[NKP Garage]

Baktash-

Could you add baffles to the 100's exhaust?

Yes sir.

 

[CanadianRockyCruiser]

I installed my EMS mid pipes (no cats), and rear exhaust (no resonator, exit out the back) last night. I attached them to my Doug Thorley Headers. I took it for a spin and it's definitely louder and more powerful than my old rusted exhaust. I have yet to take it up to highway speed, but I don't find the noise to be too bad. I definitely find the exhuast to be an improvement, so I'd say I'm pretty happy with the product.

Thanks to Baktasht for designing and building this.

I do wish that my exhuast came with all of the required hardware. I did have to wait a few weeks for my exhaust clamps to arrive, seperate from the system. I think the system should have come with O2 sensor gaskets and bolts (mine did not). Nonetheless, it's a nice improvement over the pieces of rust that were stuck to my headers!

Now to sell these ol' cats...

 

[NKP Garage]

I installed my EMS mid pipes (no cats), and rear exhaust (no resonator, exit out the back) last night. I attached them to my Doug Thorley Headers. I took it for a spin and it's definitely louder and more powerful than my old rusted exhaust. I have yet to take it up to highway speed, but I don't find the noise to be too bad. I definitely find the exhuast to be an improvement, so I'd say I'm pretty happy with the product.

Thanks to Baktasht for designing and building this.

I do wish that my exhuast came with all of the required hardware. I did have to wait a few weeks for my exhaust clamps to arrive, seperate from the system. I think the system should have come with O2 sensor gaskets and bolts (mine did not). Nonetheless, it's a nice improvement over the pieces of rust that were stuck to my headers!

Now to sell these ol' cats...

Glad you're happy with the exhaust system. We are shipping them with new o2 sensor gaskets, studs, and nuts now. We had a large order in for them with the manufacturer and they just finally came in last Friday.

 

[white_lx]

Lexus LS 460 makes about 440HP, it is quiet.http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/930/DSCF0598.JPG

The LS exhausts are also stainless. I've never had to replace one. What I'm looking for my LX is OEM equivalent performance (noise and HP), but in Stainless Steel because of all the road salts in Ontario.

Is there such a thing?

 

[sp81]

Baktasht,

I appreciate your responses to our concerns and have a request for you. As aforementioned I am planning on purchasing, headers, mid pipes and cat back exhaust from you as soon as the headers are available.

From reading others responses I am apprehensive about going with a silencer/resonator in the exhaust and it appears that the moroso ss muffler might be a solution that would offer a decent compromise between sound and performance.

My request is:

If I shipped the appropriate Moroso SS muffler to you, could you weld it into the exhaust so that the entire set up can be shipped directly to my installer? I would be willing to pay a premium for this service.

Thank you.

 

[NKP Garage]

The LS exhausts are also stainless. I've never had to replace one. What I'm looking for my LX is OEM equivalent performance (noise and HP), but in Stainless Steel because of all the road salts in Ontario.

Is there such a thing?

If there is enough interest we can definitely setup a limited run of these exhausts for you guys as a stainless steel OEM sounding exhaust system. There might be a very small amount of power gain, the main purpose of such a system would be for the guys that want exactly what you describe, OEM sound/performance but in high quality stainless steel.

Baktasht,

I appreciate your responses to our concerns and have a request for you. As aforementioned I am planning on purchasing, headers, mid pipes and cat back exhaust from you as soon as the headers are available.

From reading others responses I am apprehensive about going with a silencer/resonator in the exhaust and it appears that the moroso ss muffler might be a solution that would offer a decent compromise between sound and performance.

My request is:

If I shipped the appropriate Moroso SS muffler to you, could you weld it into the exhaust so that the entire set up can be shipped directly to my installer? I would be willing to pay a premium for this service.

Thank you.

Hi sp81, yes, we can do that no problem. We build every exhaust by hand so customizations can be done during the build. Based on experience we have had with the spiral flow we do not recommend it. But if that is what you want in the system we can build one of the Spiral Flow Moroso units into the tailpipe of your EMSPowered exhaust system.

 

[petrotk40]

Another solution is to just dynamat the rear cargo area. Super easy to do.

 

[lesgarten]

BaktashT

After our conservation today, I am still curious why you would recommend your silencer over the Moroso Spiral Flow?

In case anyone else is interested.

I am waiting for the Header/NO CAT midpipes.

EMS has "Resonators" that I will be having installed in the midpipes in place of the CATs. These are much different than the "Silencers" and are straight thru.

Then I'll figure out if I need something else in the tailpipe later.

I originally bought 2 tailpipes, one with and one without "Silencer"

 

[sp81]

Bump for Baktash's reservations about Moroso's Spiral Flow.

Les, how did you come to your decision about a catless midpipe and using resonators instead? Does this set up have a chance at eliminating the drone- and maybe the need for a muffler like the Spiral Flow?

 

[lesgarten]

Bump for Baktash's reservations about Moroso's Spiral Flow.

Les, how did you come to your decision about a catless midpipe and using resonators instead? Does this set up have a chance at eliminating the drone- and maybe the need for a muffler like the Spiral Flow?

Well I had the Catless midpipes and sold them because I am waiting for the Headers.

I am going to do the NO CAT headers with EMS's resonators installed, this was after talking to BaktashT today about installing MagnaFlow Bullets into the midpipe section today.

It seems there may not be enough room for that. They look like they would fit in the Regular NO CAT midpipes.

Then I'll see where I land with the sound. That would leave the Tailpipe spot.

 

[NKP Garage]

Les, sp81,
From our experience the spiral flow does very little in the way of quieting down the exhaust sound versus the amount of restriction it causes. But as everything in life, everyone has a personal preference on things like this. If your preference is to have a spiral flow in your EMSPowered 100-series Cat-back tailpipe, then we can weld one in the tailpipe for you during assembly. Just let us know when you place your order and we'll build it the way you want.