Strange Edic/Fuel Control relay woes: Please help

[tmarx]

If this belongs in the Newbie thread then please move it but I need some serious help. I am coming to the end of an 18 month rebuild and on Saturday afternoon I was overcome by the exitement and tried to start her. Ok motor turns over great but nothing. When I switch the ignition on there is an immediate click , the glow light on the dash comes on , same as the sedimenter filter light, brake warning light. After 5 seconds or so the glow light goes off and a few seconds later the glow relay clicks loudly ... nothing . I check the edic but the motor stays in the off position at all times. Eventually I suspect the edic motor and yank it off there :whoops: Long story short motor openened , brushes replaced etc etc , tested and motor is now fine but we leave it in the over-inject position.

With hope I put it back and also check the glow plug relay's earth- not good , so I give it, its own earth wire as the fenders are not yet back on the truck. I also check the body grounds of all the other relays including fuel conrtol relay, starter , pre heating timer etc. So before I connect the edic I think ok as I connect it, the arm should move to the Stop position - well it does not !

So I crank it anyway and sure as ever she fires into life first turn but my absolute joy is very short lived as I notice the edic is still stuck in the over inject position . So I am still where I was on Sat unless if the fuel control relay is faulty or not getting power

As a noob I take my test light and aim for the fuses. All fuses are present bar the ones for the radio and lighter. None of the fuses are blown. On the bottom 3 (Egine, Heater and Turn-wiper) I get a good ground(-) light on the fuses and the fuse holders yet on the top 3 (Tail,Stop-horn and Head) I get nothing on either the fuses or the fuse holders. So I connect my test lamp to the neg to test for juice and now I get a definate light from the top 3 fuses but nothing from the bottom three

My biggest fear with this project was the electrics so I was carefull and meticulous to the extreme but it seems my worst nightmare is now a reality. Please help

 

[watrob]

OK, first up what series Toyota diesel are you talking about?

Does all you dash warning lights come on first up. if they don't your bulb check relay (Diode to Earth fuse) is blown.

Down beside the edic is a oil pressure sensor switch, is that connected, if the system does not register oil pressure it turns off the edic motor so you don't blow the engine.

It maybe shorted out, but usually the motor runs for a second then shuts down as there is no oil pressure signal from this sensor.

I am guessing here as i don't know which model toyota you have, but the engine control unit which should be bolted on the sidewall, between the glovebox & the sidewall, check that it pluged in properly and or is getting power to it and make sure all the control units which require an earth have one.

If you have time please list what control units you have, you have not mentioned if this is a rebuild or a diesel conversion from petrol?

 

[tmarx]

Thanks Watrob. It is a BJ 42 with the 3B.

When I switch it on the glow light, sedimenter light, brake warning light etc all come on. The Oil pressure guage also worked. I doubt it is the low pressure switch because when the edic was in the off position it wouldn't move to "overinject" when I turned the key to the start position. From what I understand, in the overinject mode it is supposed to ignore the low pressure signal ?

 

[lostmarbles]

....When I switch the ignition on there is an immediate click , the glow light on the dash comes on , same as the sedimenter filter light, brake warning light. After 5 seconds or so the glow light goes off and a few seconds later the glow relay clicks loudly ... nothing . ....

Since I'm not familiar with "superglow" I can't really comment much on this Theo.

But with my BJ40 - turning the key to "start" is the "bulb check position" (and will light up my dash-mounted brake warning light for as long as my key remains there). And my other dash-light in that pair is for my handbrake (eBrake).

And I don't have a sedimenter or sedimenter light.

..I check the edic but the motor stays in the off position at all times. Eventually I suspect the edic motor and yank it off there :whoops: Long story short motor openened , brushes replaced etc etc , tested and motor is now fine but we leave it in the over-inject position.....

Leave it in the "överinject position"? But when you took it off wouldn't it have been in the "stop" position so shouldn't that have been where it was again when you refitted it? (I'm thinking of a reassembly error - but since I haven't ever taken mine apart I don't know how possible that is!)

..With hope I put it back and also check the glow plug relay's earth- not good , so I give it, its own earth wire as the fenders are not yet back on the truck. I also check the body grounds of all the other relays including fuel conrtol relay, starter , pre heating timer etc. So before I connect the edic I think ok as I connect it, the arm should move to the Stop position - well it does not ! ...

I suspect "poor earthing" could be your original/base problem because "fresh paint" often prevents effective earthing. (.... But I am wondering if you may have created a second issue when you opened-up and reassembled your EDIC motor.)

..As a noob I take my test light and aim for the fuses. All fuses are present bar the ones for the radio and lighter. None of the fuses are blown. On the bottom 3 (Egine, Heater and Turn-wiper) I get a good ground(-) light on the fuses and the fuse holders yet on the top 3 (Tail,Stop-horn and Head) I get nothing on either the fuses or the fuse holders. So I connect my test lamp to the neg to test for juice and now I get a definate light from the top 3 fuses but nothing from the bottom three ...

I'm not at home so I can't look at the wiring diagram to see whether these results give us anything useful or not. (I'll look tomorrow.)

... I doubt it is the low pressure switch because when the edic was in the off position it wouldn't move to "overinject" when I turned the key to the start position. From what I understand, in the overinject mode it is supposed to ignore the low pressure signal ?

I agree. (There is always no oil pressure when an engine is about to be started so the pressure switch won't ever stop the EDIC arm from moving to "överinject" (and thus won't stop the engine from firing up).

 

[tmarx]

Thanks Tom , I was hoping that this would interest you

Leave it in the "överinject position"? But when you took it off wouldn't it have been in the "stop" position so shouldn't that have been where it was again when you refitted it? (I'm thinking of a reassembly error - but since I haven't ever taken mine apart I don't know how possible that is!)

When we tested the motor after assembly we removed the power when the arm was in the over-inject position. We could have stopped it in either the Stop or Run position. It seems the fuel control relay just gives it the signal when to stop. The gears in the motor have assembly marks so I doubt it was an assembly error. Besides if the control relay was working properly it should have signalled the motor to reposition the arm in the Stop position the moment I plugged it in as the ignition was still off and not on "start" ?

 

[watrob]

If your edic motor is doing nothing then its either there is no power or earth or it is not getting any signal to tell it to activate. When you turn the key all the way to start and the starter motor is engaging, the edic motor should go to over-inject position.

When the engine first fire's up the edic motor goes straight to and then pulls back from over-inject back past the middle setting (which is run) to off position for just a moment as the oil pressure builds (when engine is cold) and then stays on the run position until you turn off the key.

You say the edic motor does not move at all? get a volt meter and see if any power is getting to the edic motor when you turn the key thru its different positions. I would be checking the engine control unit and the start relay control unit.

Or another way is disconnect a different control unit one at a time. If you disconnect a control unit and nothing changes then it might tell you either the unit is faulty or that unit is not getting power, crude I know but there is only a few control relays in these vehicles and its either a faulty contoller or connection.

PS. Check the joining connector on the start relay control, they draw alot of current and I have seen those fryed before?

 

[lostmarbles]

....As a noob I take my test light and aim for the fuses. All fuses are present bar the ones for the radio and lighter. None of the fuses are blown. On the bottom 3 (Egine, Heater and Turn-wiper) I get a good ground(-) light on the fuses and the fuse holders yet on the top 3 (Tail,Stop-horn and Head) I get nothing on either the fuses or the fuse holders. So I connect my test lamp to the neg to test for juice and now I get a definate light from the top 3 fuses but nothing from the bottom three ...

Right Theo. I've had a look at the wiring diagram this morning and confirmed what I found there using a multimeter on my own BJ40. (I hate test lamps!)

The ENGINE, HEATER, and TURN/WIPER fuses don't get any juice till the ignition key is put in "motor-run". But the TAIL, STOP/HORN and HEAD fuses get power all-the-time (providing a fusible link isn't blown of course).

So your lamp tests revealed nothing other than "a normal situation" - Assuming your ignition key was "off" while you were testing. (Turning your key on and repeating the test should find you getting the same result for all fuses.)

..My biggest fear with this project was the electrics so I was carefull and meticulous to the extreme but it seems my worst nightmare is now a reality. ....

I think you've talked yourself into believing this Theo .......Really electrics are more fun than anything else!

...When we tested the motor after assembly we removed the power when the arm was in the over-inject position. We could have stopped it in either the Stop or Run position. It seems the fuel control relay just gives it the signal when to stop. The gears in the motor have assembly marks so I doubt it was an assembly error. Besides if the control relay was working properly it should have signalled the motor to reposition the arm in the Stop position the moment I plugged it in as the ignition was still off and not on "start" ?

Perhaps it is just me - But I would still have liked to have the EDIC motor in exactly the same position on re-installation that it was in before (on removal). ie In the STOP position.

But that is probably because I still don't understand fully how the EDIC/FUEL-CONTROL SYSTEM works out when it has the injection-pump-lever in all the appropriate positions.

Rockcrawler/Alex appears to know more than me about this - and I think I remember him saying that the relay doesn't get any feedback from the motor (regarding its position).

Yet I still can't believe the motor "simply gets power for X seconds" with the idea that it will move the lever to the correct position within that time. (Such a system would be totally unreliable IMO.)

Anyway - my "lack-of-understanding" means I would be even more inclined to be cautious on reassembly to get things back the same.

If your edic motor is doing nothing then its either there is no power or earth or it is not getting any signal to tell it to activate. When you turn the key all the way to start and the starter motor is engaging, the edic motor should go to over-inject position.

When the engine first fire's up the edic motor goes straight to and then pulls back from over-inject back past the middle setting (which is run) to off position for just a moment as the oil pressure builds (when engine is cold) and then stays on the run position until you turn off the key.

You say the edic motor does not move at all? get a volt meter and see if any power is getting to the edic motor when you turn the key thru its different positions. I would be checking the engine control unit and the start relay control unit.

Or another way is disconnect a different control unit one at a time. If you disconnect a control unit and nothing changes then it might tell you either the unit is faulty or that unit is not getting power, crude I know but there is only a few control relays in these vehicles and its either a faulty contoller or connection.

PS. Check the joining connector on the start relay control, they draw alot of current and I have seen those fryed before?

I've just highlighted (in orange) a part I don't agree with Robert.

I understand the EDIC-relay/Fuel-Control-Relay has a time-delay that allows the engine to build up oil pressure - So this means the arm never gets moved over to the "stop" position during start-up. (If it moved to the "stop" position - even briefly - you would have to hear your engine "splutter" because for that brief moment your fuel delivery would have been cut-off!)

I suspect what you have noticed is actually the diaphragm moving the IP lever in response to changing vacuum levels in the intake venturi during start-up.



PS. I do intend to one-day fully understand the EDIC/Fuel-control operation. But like most people here, I have a lack-of-time to concentrate on it. (I'm flat-out like everyone else I imagine.) Meanwhile - I just like to take part in threads like this to "solidify my present understanding". And often I find I reach "full-understanding" simply by following this approach of "taking part in discussions".

 

[watrob]

I have monitored my edic motor very closely, when starting the engine when cold my edic motor swings to the off position for a split second as the oil pressure has not built up in time. I don't know what the window of time is for it to sense oil pressure but on cold days this is what happens.

I have run a test by disconnecting the wire from the oil pressure switch, the engine starts then the edic motor goes straight to the off position, put the wire back on and it runs thru its cycle ok. I have had this wire fall off once when driving and the engine switched off straight away.

The oil pressure switch will not stop your engine from starting but it will switch it off within seconds.

The problem tmarx is having is his edic motor is doing nothing, whether this a control relay problem will be hard to find unless he has spare relays to swap out. If tmarx knew it was not a control unit it would make it easier to trace a wiring loom or earth fault!

 

[tmarx]

Thanks guys, much appreciated !

Last night I was a bit down about this mess and didn't do much but this AM at 04h30 I was wide awake and back in the garage. Please excuse the ignorance and crudeness of the testing but hopefully you guys can interpret the results.

Firstly, I totally removed the FCR and she still started and ran - nothing changed.(bear in mind that the FCM is in the "OI" position but I also unclipped the Edic control arm leaving the IP in the "run" position.

I then took my test lamp to the FCR(loom side) plug connector. With ignition off and the + side clamped , I got a light up on 6 wires ie, black+yellow , yellow+black,white+black,blue,red,green whereas I got totally nothing from the white+blue, the yellow wires. Shockingly(to me at least) the thicker than all others black+white cranked the engine !

Then I repeated the same but this time I switched the ignition to ON(not Start). This time the only change was the black+yellow which previously gave a flash was now dead whereas all the others were still the same ??

Then I clamped the - terminal and repeated it starting with the ignition Off: All was dead !

I then switched the ignition ON(not start) and the Black+ yellow gave me a light but all others were dead !!



Then I moved to the FCM plug connector on the loom side- With the + cable clamped and ignition OFF , I only got a light signal from the blue+red(located in the 15h00 to 18h00 clock position) Apologies for the lack of pics as my Inet router decided to die on us last night .

I then left the + clamped and switched the ignition ON and it remained the same ie only the blue+red gave a signal.

Then I clamped the -terminal and redid the test in both the ignition ON and OFF(not start) and surprise surprise got absolutely nothing at all. Does this mean I am not getting any power to the FCM ??

 

[watrob]

I would hazard a guess and say your Fuel Control Relay is faulty, simply by the fact it controls the edic motor and your edic motor is not moving at all. The relay's inside this fuel control unit must not be working, you should be able hear & feel the relays in this box moving & clicking when you turn the key.

I would get a secondhand one from a wrecker and I think you would get away with one from a early 60 series diesel 2H or out of a HJ47 or HJ45.

I think you need to rule out this relay, as you stated you disconnected the relay and uncoupled the edic control arm and the motor started and ran, which means everthing is working except this fuel control relay.

Here is a test, reconnect the fuel control relay (make sure the case has a contact body earth) and then disconnect both the, low oil pressure sensor (the one that is coupled with this control relay) and also disconnected the other oil pressure sensor that activates the oil light on the dash. Both these sensors are on the engine block close to the edic motor. (The reason why I want you to disconnect both oil pressure sensors is just incase you have connected the wrong wire to the wrong oil sensor)

Now try to start the engine, under normal conditions with the low oil pressure sensor disconnected the engine should still start but will cause the fuel control relay to shut the edic motor to the off position because it thinks there is no oil pressure. If nothing still happens then the fuel control relay is the problem.

Hope you get it working

 

[herbs]

The BJ 42 and HJ 47 use the same fuel control relay, not sure about HJ 60s. A FCR from a HJ 45 won't fit, doesn't even plug in.

 

[lostmarbles]

My "EDIC oil pressure switch" OPENS when my engine builds oil pressure so if I were to disconnect that switch - my engine would start and run as per normal (because "disconnecting" has the same effect as "the opening switch contacts").

Here is a warning in my FSM Theo. :



And you say you reinstalled yours with the lever in a completely different position!

And by the way - The only fuses that I can see associated with my EDIC-System/Fuel-Control-System are "one fusible link" and "the engine fuse".

Firstly, I totally removed the FCR and she still started and ran - nothing changed.(bear in mind that the FCM is in the "OI" position but I also unclipped the Edic control arm leaving the IP in the "run" position. ...

Yes. Unclipping the arm will leave the injection pump lever in the "motor-run" position. And it this position your engine can start and run OK. It is just that it doesn't get the "extra-fuel for starting that the "overinject position" provides (so starting may be "less strong") and you must stall the engine to stop it (or use some other means) because turning your key to "off" won't stop it.

But beware - Best to remove the arm fully because if your EDIC motor wants to move yet can't - because the dangling arm has jammed onto something - your EDIC motor/relay could become toast. (Well - at least - another MUD member recently relayed an experience that suggests this happened to them.)

..I then took my test lamp to the FCR(loom side) plug connector. With ignition off and the + side clamped , I got a light up on 6 wires ie, black+yellow , yellow+black,white+black,blue,red,green whereas I got totally nothing from the white+blue, the yellow wires. Shockingly(to me at least) the thicker than all others black+white cranked the engine !

Then I repeated the same but this time I switched the ignition to ON(not Start). This time the only change was the black+yellow which previously gave a flash was now dead whereas all the others were still the same ??

Then I clamped the - terminal and repeated it starting with the ignition Off: All was dead !

I then switched the ignition ON(not start) and the Black+ yellow gave me a light but all others were dead !!



Then I moved to the FCM plug connector on the loom side- With the + cable clamped and ignition OFF , I only got a light signal from the blue+red(located in the 15h00 to 18h00 clock position) Apologies for the lack of pics as my Inet router decided to die on us last night .

I then left the + clamped and switched the ignition ON and it remained the same ie only the blue+red gave a signal.

Then I clamped the -terminal and redid the test in both the ignition ON and OFF(not start) and surprise surprise got absolutely nothing at all. Does this mean I am not getting any power to the FCM ??

Why make things so hard for yourself Theo?

Test lamps are a pain in the butt!!!!

It often takes too much work to interpret the results! And when using a 12V test lamp you can be applying 12V to components that were never designed to take that voltage. (Whereas a multimeter just uses a little 1.5V battery that is highly unlikely to damage anything. In fact, you're more likely to damage your cheap meter than your cruiser when you use a multimeter!)

When you have one lead of your lamp on your battery's positive terminal and you touch something that causes your lamp to light - then you have applied 12V to that "something" and all you have learnt is that the "something" is completing an earth circuit - and it could be through something very minor like a bulb filiament or a tiny relay coil.

And applying 12V can get unexpected things to happen - like your starter suddenly engaging!

Rockcrawler posted some stuff that looked good on testing an FCR. But when in difficulty it often pays to fall back on the FSM. Here is what my FSM suggests for my B-engine (for testing FCRs and FCMs). (Is there similar stuff for the 3B in a BJ42?)





PS. I think the Fuel Control Relay (EDIC relay) and Fuel Control Motor (EDIC motor) are very similar between BJ40 and BJ42 models. In fact I suspect it may be only the connectors that are different between yours and mine. Edit 26/27/31 Oct - Not true - The BJ42 FCR has 2 extra wires as well as the different connector. It is also visually different inside with what looks like "an extra relay". And the FCM on a BJ40 has an additional connector (3 extra wires) So BJ40 and BJ42 FCR/FCMs are NOT interchangeable and apparently work differently



Edit 10.45am: - Just got my son to help me..... Disconnected the starter solenoid on my BJ40 (so that it wouldn't crank) then got him to move the key to "on" (this got no EDIC movement), then to "start" (whereupon EDIC motor moved to "overinject" and stayed there as long as the key was held in this position), then he released the key to allow it to spring back to "on" position (whereupon the EDIC arm moved to the "motor run" position and stayed there for 8 seconds before moving itself to the "off" position). This is exactly as I would expect and I think it is a good "EDIC test procedure" for owners of BJ4# cruisers (that have EDIC fitted).

8 seconds is exactly what my FSM says I should have and should be ample time for my cruiser to build up oil pressure.

And disconnecting my "EDIC oil switch" means my lever stays in "motor run" and NEVER moves to "off" (while my key is in the "on" position after a "start-up key-movement routine").

 

[watrob]

"And disconnecting my "EDIC oil switch" means my lever stays in "motor run" and NEVER moves to "off" (while my key is in the "on" position after a "start-up routine"). "

This is correct, but once you start the engine and it receives no oil pressure signal the Fuel Control Relay should shut the edic motor to the off position. What is needed is to know if his FCR is working at all as there are two relays inside this control unit and maybe part of this unit has gone faulty! and is causing the problem.

If the oil pressure sensor has fused or is causing a short by disconnecting it still allows you to try and start the engine, but it will shut down within a few seconds. I have tested this and this is what happens on my vehicle.

 

[herbs]

There should be a procedure for testing the FCR in a 2H or 3B FSM, I've got one that's applicable for the 1970s era B and H motors, but they're a bit different.

 

[watrob]

There should be a procedure for testing the FCR in a 2H or 3B FSM, I've got one that's applicable for the 1970s era B and H motors, but they're a bit different.

Lostmarbles put up a procedure to check the FCR with a multimeter and apply 12 volts to it. Until tmarx can do that and rule in or out that the FCR is faulty or not it is going to be hard for him to fix the edic motor problem.

The one thing tmarx will get out of this is a full understanding of how the electrics work on his diesel!

 

[tmarx]

Huge thanks Tom and the others !

Will let you know when I have some fresh news

 

[Teebag]

The one thing tmarx will get out of this is a full understanding of how the electrics work on his diesel!

Thank god for that

 

[watrob]

Thank god for that

How are you going you old Teebag!

 

[lostmarbles]

How are you going you old Teebag!

Yeah. I sometimes wish I had been more imaginative with my username.

I like names that make it hard for people to take you seriously and that make people puzzle over your choice (and over what sort of person you REALLY are.)

For instance - the person who chose "ratpuke" did well in my books.

 

[Teebag]

Still in the depths of rebuild despair

BTW Theo supports the Springboks, and has banned me from his house whenever they play the All Blacks...

...something about them loosing whenever I am there in my AB jersey