Great idea, nothing beats the old proven ways.
or have an unsuspecting buddy hold the SPARKPLUG (not just a plain wire) in its hand while you crank, if you did not hear some loud cursing,,, you have no spark
Won't start - no spark after rebuild
- Thread starter jcarter
- Start date
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Great idea, nothing beats the old proven ways.
or have an unsuspecting buddy hold the SPARKPLUG (not just a plain wire) in its hand while you crank, if you did not hear some loud cursing,,, you have no spark
You don't need any equipment to test the coil and the wiring upstream (toward the battery) from the coil.
You just remove the coil high voltage wire at the distributor center post and hold it 1/4inch away from an engine ground.
Remove the wires at the - side of the coil and turn the key on.
Run a wire from the - side of the coil and momentarily ground it. When you let up,it should spark at the high tension wire.
If there is no spark the coil or upstream wiring is the problem. Check the voltage at the + side of the coil when the - side is grounded. If it is less than 8V, then there may be a bad connection upstream.
If it sparks, the coil and all the wiring upstream is good. The problem is either the ignitor, the distributor pickup coil of the ECU that drives the ignitor.
You can do this test in 5 minutes.
You just remove the coil high voltage wire at the distributor center post and hold it 1/4inch away from an engine ground.
Remove the wires at the - side of the coil and turn the key on.
Run a wire from the - side of the coil and momentarily ground it. When you let up,it should spark at the high tension wire.
If there is no spark the coil or upstream wiring is the problem. Check the voltage at the + side of the coil when the - side is grounded. If it is less than 8V, then there may be a bad connection upstream.
If it sparks, the coil and all the wiring upstream is good. The problem is either the ignitor, the distributor pickup coil of the ECU that drives the ignitor.
You can do this test in 5 minutes.
Any progress?
- Thread starter
- #64
Sorry guys, Halloween, Kid's birthday dinner tonight, works a pain, NOT TILL SUNDAY!
I'll put all your recommendations together, list by priority (easy first), then post what I find.
I was just thinking about the distibutor install. FSM says to put at TDC (double dots at timing line), some lifters will be lose, some tight. Thing is, I had just got my head done, so lifters were all screwed up, not real apparent what was lose or tight. Another test I'm going to do is put at TDC again, pull #1 plug, stick my finger in the plug hole & see if I can touch the piston (on top). If not distributor is 180 degrees off AND my valve adjustment is bad, off with the valve cover, readjust valves, reinstall distributor.
I'll post back Sunday.
I REALLY APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK!
Joe
I'll put all your recommendations together, list by priority (easy first), then post what I find.
I was just thinking about the distibutor install. FSM says to put at TDC (double dots at timing line), some lifters will be lose, some tight. Thing is, I had just got my head done, so lifters were all screwed up, not real apparent what was lose or tight. Another test I'm going to do is put at TDC again, pull #1 plug, stick my finger in the plug hole & see if I can touch the piston (on top). If not distributor is 180 degrees off AND my valve adjustment is bad, off with the valve cover, readjust valves, reinstall distributor.
I'll post back Sunday.
I REALLY APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK!
Joe
- Thread starter
- #66
Finding top dead center (TDC)
"thin rod" Yes, that's my plan. Now that I've had the thing apart, I have seen how high the piston goes when highest. And I've seen the spark plug hole in the head. I was thinking about using a metal coat hanger, bend it curved to where it makes sense, take off the dist cap, put it at TDC by timing mark (2 little circles), make sure the rotor is pointing at the driver's seat, stick the hanger in and see if it hits the top of #1 piston. Hopefully it does cause it'll be a LOT of work if wrong (redo valve adjustment). If it doesn't, I'll make sure by rotating 180 (TDC again by timing mark-2 little circles, rotor pointing at PS headlight), and see if I can hit the piston with the hanger.
To be thorough: 180 degrees is how far the rotor has turned. The crank turns twice everytime the rotor turns once. OR There are 2 little circles in the timing window only once on the flywheel (360 degrees), when you line them up, #1 piston is either fully UP or DOWN and rotor will be pointing at DS seat (UP) or PS headlight (DOWN).
What I still am confused about is will the "pick-ups" in the distributor NOT allow spark if 180 off?
Should FIRST test be checking codes (easy)? I'll crank her a few times so ECU can see problems.
I may get some diagnosis done tonight, but I promised to redo brakes on son's Accord for birthday present. Sunday for sure!
"thin rod" Yes, that's my plan. Now that I've had the thing apart, I have seen how high the piston goes when highest. And I've seen the spark plug hole in the head. I was thinking about using a metal coat hanger, bend it curved to where it makes sense, take off the dist cap, put it at TDC by timing mark (2 little circles), make sure the rotor is pointing at the driver's seat, stick the hanger in and see if it hits the top of #1 piston. Hopefully it does cause it'll be a LOT of work if wrong (redo valve adjustment). If it doesn't, I'll make sure by rotating 180 (TDC again by timing mark-2 little circles, rotor pointing at PS headlight), and see if I can hit the piston with the hanger.
To be thorough: 180 degrees is how far the rotor has turned. The crank turns twice everytime the rotor turns once. OR There are 2 little circles in the timing window only once on the flywheel (360 degrees), when you line them up, #1 piston is either fully UP or DOWN and rotor will be pointing at DS seat (UP) or PS headlight (DOWN).
What I still am confused about is will the "pick-ups" in the distributor NOT allow spark if 180 off?
Should FIRST test be checking codes (easy)? I'll crank her a few times so ECU can see problems.
I may get some diagnosis done tonight, but I promised to redo brakes on son's Accord for birthday present. Sunday for sure!
My understanding from your description is that you are still not getting a spark. Reinstalling the distributor and adjusting the valves isn't going to change that situation. Fix your known problems first before creating any new ones.
Remember that there are two TDCs per cycle and only one is correct. You can find the correct one by putting your finger over the spark plug hole turning the engine and stopping at the TDC where you feel compression before it hits TDC. The other way is to turn the engine and watch the valves. Turn until the intake for #1 closes and then turn another half turn on the crank until it comes up to TDC.
There is a mark on the flywheel that corresponds to your DTC per FSM. SHould be as easy as allinging the flywheel to that DTC mark?
You were supposed to install you cam when this mark was alligned at the flywheel also.... just for info..
You were supposed to install you cam when this mark was alligned at the flywheel also.... just for info..
- Thread starter
- #69
Thanks guys, good advice.
I'm still confused by what kind of affect the 2 pick-ups in the distributor have on spark. What you're saying is timing could be WAY OFF and wouldn't matter, would still send spark just not at the right time.
To review, the ECU controls the spark. Can the 2 pick-ups in the distributor PREVENT the ECU from allowing a spark to the distributor?
I'm still confused by what kind of affect the 2 pick-ups in the distributor have on spark. What you're saying is timing could be WAY OFF and wouldn't matter, would still send spark just not at the right time.
To review, the ECU controls the spark. Can the 2 pick-ups in the distributor PREVENT the ECU from allowing a spark to the distributor?
Not the expert but AFAIK the pick-up coils generate a signal when the reluctor ring teeth spin by the pick-ups. There is a specified air gap between the pick ups and the ring and a resistance spec for the pick ups themselves. But then if the engine ran before you started the rebuild and didn't mess with the distributor shouldn't it still be good??
I had an issue with one of the pickup coil going bad. Everything checked out but I was not getting any spark. I followed the test procedure of pickups and figured out which one was bad. I ended up buying a used one and just replaced the pickup instead of replacing the whole dizzy and messing with timing. I was able to replace the pickup coil without removing the whole dizzy. Good luck.
- Thread starter
- #72
More Tests
1. Easy:
a. Take off wires & check distributor cap, compare with old, install old & try to start. ALL IS GOOD
b. Plug wire near ground, crank & test for spark (2-people). NO SPARK
c. Codes: Page FI-21; put in neutral; turn ignition on; connect TE1 (2nd from right in middle) & E1 (3rd from right on bottom); rectangle on bottom, extra connector on top; NO CODES, Normal: blink on/off 2x per second
2. Distributor gaps: See IG-7. Gap range 0.20-0.40mm (0.008-0.016 in)
a. G gap: Gap discription "wing that turns to metal thing"; 0.23mm GOOD
b. NE gap: Gap description "gear that turns to black block"; 0.50mm BAD! TOO WIDE OF A GAP! Also, heard an "electrical click" when I put feeler between the two like it was switching a relay.
3. Elec Meter:
a. Coil: + rear, - front; range 0.30-0.60 ohms. Page IG-7, Still don't trust meter; borrowed meter, but still don't trust results; meter for less than 1 ohm is EXPENSIVE, I think it's 0.40 ohms. I'm calling this GOOD.
b. Coil: + to dist wire; range 9-15K ohms; Page IG-7; 12K GOOD
c. Distributor (page IG-7): Unplug near bottom of distributor (small wires). Check plug on distributor side. 3 connectors (G-top left; NE-top right; G minus- bottom right; nothing-bottom left).
i.G to G minus: 185-265K ohms
ii. NE to G minus: 185-265K ohms
iii. Meter 1 Results: Meter set at 200K read 0.3. I don't know what that means? When you set a meter at 200K does that mean UP to 200K or times 200K? If times 200K I've got 60K BAD.
iv. Meter 2 Results: Meter set at 200K read 0.220 & 0.214. Again, I think this is BAD.
Recommendations?
Thanks,
Joe
PS In the meantime, I'm going to look at the previous guys post (can't read it right now) about replacing something in the distributor.
1. Easy:
a. Take off wires & check distributor cap, compare with old, install old & try to start. ALL IS GOOD
b. Plug wire near ground, crank & test for spark (2-people). NO SPARK
c. Codes: Page FI-21; put in neutral; turn ignition on; connect TE1 (2nd from right in middle) & E1 (3rd from right on bottom); rectangle on bottom, extra connector on top; NO CODES, Normal: blink on/off 2x per second
2. Distributor gaps: See IG-7. Gap range 0.20-0.40mm (0.008-0.016 in)
a. G gap: Gap discription "wing that turns to metal thing"; 0.23mm GOOD
b. NE gap: Gap description "gear that turns to black block"; 0.50mm BAD! TOO WIDE OF A GAP! Also, heard an "electrical click" when I put feeler between the two like it was switching a relay.
3. Elec Meter:
a. Coil: + rear, - front; range 0.30-0.60 ohms. Page IG-7, Still don't trust meter; borrowed meter, but still don't trust results; meter for less than 1 ohm is EXPENSIVE, I think it's 0.40 ohms. I'm calling this GOOD.
b. Coil: + to dist wire; range 9-15K ohms; Page IG-7; 12K GOOD
c. Distributor (page IG-7): Unplug near bottom of distributor (small wires). Check plug on distributor side. 3 connectors (G-top left; NE-top right; G minus- bottom right; nothing-bottom left).
i.G to G minus: 185-265K ohms
ii. NE to G minus: 185-265K ohms
iii. Meter 1 Results: Meter set at 200K read 0.3. I don't know what that means? When you set a meter at 200K does that mean UP to 200K or times 200K? If times 200K I've got 60K BAD.
iv. Meter 2 Results: Meter set at 200K read 0.220 & 0.214. Again, I think this is BAD.
Recommendations?
Thanks,
Joe
PS In the meantime, I'm going to look at the previous guys post (can't read it right now) about replacing something in the distributor.
The different ohms settings on meters are ranges.
So you set to 200k if you are expecting to read less than 200k but more than the next lowest setting.
It was more obvious how that worked with the old needle meters.
So you set to 200k if you are expecting to read less than 200k but more than the next lowest setting.
It was more obvious how that worked with the old needle meters.
- Thread starter
- #75
Slim - That's what I thought. So if I'm getting 0.3, that means 0.3 ohms or generally speaking, THE PICK-UP COILS ARE SHORTED!
Kernal - Yes, I messed with the distributor. I had to take it out to get my oil pump out. Long story short, when I went to replace the oil pump it was stuck. The only way I could get it out was to remove the distributor and bang it out. I posted something on this asking if it was tapered. The "donut" that aligns/holds the oil pump in had a burr on it. So, I removed the "donut" from the block, filed off the burr until the new oil pump would slide in, then reinstalled everything.
FSM manual; distributor gap check: FSM says to replace the distributor if the gap isn't within spec. I just loosened the coils in the distributor and pryed the gaps right. Now I've got 0.3 on my "gear" pick-up and 0.25 on my "wing" pick-up. So, I disagree with these gaps NOT being adustable.
Of course after I got my gaps right, I put everything back together, said a little prayer, & tried to start it. NOPE!
I'm pretty confident my pick-ups are shorted out.
Going forward:
Test battery (line) side of distributor: My previous test was on load or distributor side of connector. What if I'd test the battery side? Could the SHORT be upstream of the distributor?
Kernal - Yes, I messed with the distributor. I had to take it out to get my oil pump out. Long story short, when I went to replace the oil pump it was stuck. The only way I could get it out was to remove the distributor and bang it out. I posted something on this asking if it was tapered. The "donut" that aligns/holds the oil pump in had a burr on it. So, I removed the "donut" from the block, filed off the burr until the new oil pump would slide in, then reinstalled everything.
FSM manual; distributor gap check: FSM says to replace the distributor if the gap isn't within spec. I just loosened the coils in the distributor and pryed the gaps right. Now I've got 0.3 on my "gear" pick-up and 0.25 on my "wing" pick-up. So, I disagree with these gaps NOT being adustable.
Of course after I got my gaps right, I put everything back together, said a little prayer, & tried to start it. NOPE!
I'm pretty confident my pick-ups are shorted out.
Going forward:
Test battery (line) side of distributor: My previous test was on load or distributor side of connector. What if I'd test the battery side? Could the SHORT be upstream of the distributor?
Where are you getting this information from? The FSM specs for distributor pick up coil resistance are 140-1800 OHMS. This is clearly stated and copied from the FSM in the 3FE diagnostic flow chart that I gave you a link to weeks ago.
Your meter is set WAY TOO HIGH to read this correctly.
Your meter is set WAY TOO HIGH to read this correctly.
- Thread starter
- #77
Jon,
I'm looking on Page IG-7, it says . . oh sheeeet!. . . I MISREAD THE DAD-GUMMED FSM! WHAT AN IDIOT!
Okay, I'll set it at 200 ohms and retest. Sorry guys.
I'm looking on Page IG-7, it says . . oh sheeeet!. . . I MISREAD THE DAD-GUMMED FSM! WHAT AN IDIOT!
Okay, I'll set it at 200 ohms and retest. Sorry guys.
- Thread starter
- #78
Jon,
I was a bit out of it yesterday (Sunday). Kid had a Marching Band Competition Saturday and we volunteered. 6AM to 2AM of being a band roadie wore me out.
Anyhow, on your "3FE EFI Diag.pdf" it calls for 140-1800 ohms. In my 1992 FSM it calls for 185 - 265 ohms.
Regardless, I'm getting less than 1 ohm on the distributor test.
At lunch I'll retest the (4) ohm tests (2 for coil; 2 for distributor) with the (2) meters I have. Also, take a pic of page IG-7 showing ohm range and report back.
Thanks for your patience,
Joe
I was a bit out of it yesterday (Sunday). Kid had a Marching Band Competition Saturday and we volunteered. 6AM to 2AM of being a band roadie wore me out.
Anyhow, on your "3FE EFI Diag.pdf" it calls for 140-1800 ohms. In my 1992 FSM it calls for 185 - 265 ohms.
Regardless, I'm getting less than 1 ohm on the distributor test.
At lunch I'll retest the (4) ohm tests (2 for coil; 2 for distributor) with the (2) meters I have. Also, take a pic of page IG-7 showing ohm range and report back.
Thanks for your patience,
Joe
- Thread starter
- #79
I got spark!
WOO HOO!
I've been delayed due to other commitments & weather.
Home at lunch, remeasured as follows using a borrowed meter:
1. Coil resistance: 0.6 ohms, bounced between .5 & .6 (book says 0.3-0.6, GOOD)
2. Sec Coil resistance: This was a PITA! Finally hit the right spot, 12.4K ohms measured twiced (book says 9-15K, GOOD)
3. Dist NE-Gminus & G-Gminus: 220 ohms (book says 185-265, GOOD)
Bad timing light?
Plugged everything back together, hollared at YaYa across the street to borrow a grandkid, hooked up my OTHER timing light, IT FLASHED! First timing light has a spring you attach to #1 plug wire on one side, #1 plug on other side, alligator clip the spring, never failed me before. OTHER timing light has a "pincher" with a hole in the middle you simply put around #1 wire (wire is loose in the hole).
Last bit of MUD advice was an ignorant "Take it to a Mechanic". I'm getting a guy to come by from the local parts store tonight who's a Toyota guy. I figure to let him diagnose it. Gas? Timing? Still won't start, but knowing there is spark hitting the plugs is GREAT NEWS!
FINALLY SOMETHING IS GOING MY WAY!
I'll report back tomorrow what we find. Thanks for the help.
WOO HOO!
I've been delayed due to other commitments & weather.
Home at lunch, remeasured as follows using a borrowed meter:
1. Coil resistance: 0.6 ohms, bounced between .5 & .6 (book says 0.3-0.6, GOOD)
2. Sec Coil resistance: This was a PITA! Finally hit the right spot, 12.4K ohms measured twiced (book says 9-15K, GOOD)
3. Dist NE-Gminus & G-Gminus: 220 ohms (book says 185-265, GOOD)
Bad timing light?
Plugged everything back together, hollared at YaYa across the street to borrow a grandkid, hooked up my OTHER timing light, IT FLASHED! First timing light has a spring you attach to #1 plug wire on one side, #1 plug on other side, alligator clip the spring, never failed me before. OTHER timing light has a "pincher" with a hole in the middle you simply put around #1 wire (wire is loose in the hole).
Last bit of MUD advice was an ignorant "Take it to a Mechanic". I'm getting a guy to come by from the local parts store tonight who's a Toyota guy. I figure to let him diagnose it. Gas? Timing? Still won't start, but knowing there is spark hitting the plugs is GREAT NEWS!
FINALLY SOMETHING IS GOING MY WAY!
I'll report back tomorrow what we find. Thanks for the help.
Great news!
If you have spark, you are 1/2 way there...
Now I would guess you need to check Fuel pressure and Injectors firing/open signal.
I used to have a set of little "Noid" lights you would plug into the fuel injector harness, and when a signal was sent to the injecto to open the light would flash.
Easy way to tell if your injector are recieving a firing/open signal...
Fuel Pressure is simple enough to test
If you have spark, you are 1/2 way there...
Now I would guess you need to check Fuel pressure and Injectors firing/open signal.
I used to have a set of little "Noid" lights you would plug into the fuel injector harness, and when a signal was sent to the injecto to open the light would flash.
Easy way to tell if your injector are recieving a firing/open signal...
Fuel Pressure is simple enough to test
