Won't start - no spark after rebuild

[jonheld]

The one with the black cap is the throttle cable. Have someone step on the accelerator pedal to the floor (motor off). Adjust the cable so the throttle is just touching the endstop.

The one with the orange cap is the transmission kickdown cable. That adjusts fluid pressure in the valve body of the transmission. There is an adjustment procedure in the FSM.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-...-hard-shift-mostly-between-3rd-overdrive.html

 

[jcarter]

distributor - Please check my thinking before purchase

Last stitch effort to make sure it's the distributor.

#1 Not lined up: I am confident now it isn't lining up right. I can only adjust one way or it starts to spitter sputter. So, I'm NOT within the adjustment to make it right. If I could adjust past the bolt slot without being stopped by the head, I'm pretty sure I could adjust it right.

#2 move a tooth won't help: This is where I need some feedback. Last time I took the distributor off I counted the teeth on the gear. 13 teeth. Then I divided 360 degrees by 13 teeth to figure 28 degrees per tooth adjustment. Per #1, it is close, real close. Looking at the bolt slot, I would say it allows about 12 degrees of adjustment. So, if I move a tooth, I'll be 28 degrees away from where I am now and the 12 degree bolt slot adjustment won't help. Right?

Comment please before I spend more $$$$.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[jwilber]

Two things have to line up to get it in right the distributor gear and the oil pump slot you might have to use a screw driver to turn the slot in the right spot for when you rotate the distributor in. It may take a few tries to get it right

 

[jcarter]

Distributor is 1/2 tooth off!

So, rotated the distributor by 1 tooth. FSM says rotor should point just before the left screw hole. Put it in with rotor pointing a bit to the right of screw hole (1 tooth over). Previously, it pointed a bit to the left of screw hole (more to the left than FSM).

Now I could rotate the distributor farther without hitting the head. I timed it (actually saw the dots like you're supposed to). Couldn't time it (see the dots) previously with distributor on other tooth.

Hint #1 Don't worry too much about oil pump position: The distributor didn't go down all the way. It was in the cam gear, but not in the oil slot. Bumped the motor with a little pressure on the distributor and it dropped in.

Hint #2 Use a mirror for timing: Essential! I would get a line on the timing window, but when I turned the distributor, a plug wire would get in my line of sight. I put a mirror close to the timing window so this wouldn't happen anymore.

Okay, I said 1/2 tooth off. See pic


Notice bolt is out and there is no way for it to be installed. I'm not sure how a distributor get's 1/2 tooth off, but it is.

How 1/2 tooth off? It's gotta be the gears. Gear on distributor are "turned" a bit (hope so). This must be rare (lucky me) because the gear is held in with a pin. Gear on camshaft is off. This would be BAD! This would mean even if I buy a brand new one for $700, it still won't go in there right.

Hillbilly Solution: If the $100 used distributor I am going to purchase leaves me where I am right now, I'm going to cut the adjustment so the screw can go in and still hold down the distributor.

So, let's hope that it's the distributor!

Code 12: It is throwing a code 12 which means the gaps in the distributor are not right. I hope the gaps on the used distributor fixes this. I'm messed with the gaps quite a bit and DON'T want to have to screw with that again.

And the saga continues. . . . .

 

[Pin_Head]

I don't understand why you think the distributor is bad when it runs fine. I don't have much experience with the 3FE, but timing on most EFI engines is handled by the ECU which uses a cam or crank position sensor to clock it. The manual timing only has to be approximate so that the spark will jump to the correct plug.

Make sure that your throttle cable is properly adjusted so the throttle can open all the way.

 

[jcarter]

It only runs fine in idle, I can't get any power out of it. It bogs down. I think you're right in that manual timing only has to be approximate, then ECU takes over, but I'm not close enough with manual timing.

Besides, it's thowing a Code 12 now, which means the cam or crank position sensor is not working right. Which means the "pickups" or gaps in not right.

I could try adjusting the gaps again to get and try to get rid of the code, but I'll still have the distributor NOT able to be screwed down.

 

[jcarter]

Stupid question - CRANK BOLT

To turn the crank and align the two dots to TDC, I've been using a large pipe wrench. I may have left the wrench on last time I started it, I'm not sure. I didn't hear it fall off.

Regardless, if you stick your finger inside this bolt, how far will it go? Also, if I did leave this on, would it have loosened when it started?

 

[Pin_Head]

The engine turns clockwise when viewed from the front. If you were turning the engine CCW with a pipe wrench then you might have loosened the crank nut when you hit the key. If you were turning CW with a pipe wrench, then the wrench would just fall off when you crank it.

Describe what you mean by bogging down in more detail. What happens and under what circumstances. Does it revv freely when there is no load. Does it buck spit and backfire when it boggs down?

 

[jcarter]

"bogging down" If you read up a bit, there's a description. Since it was idling so well, I didn't worry about timing it and figured I'd bring it up to get the exhaust fixed. Back down the hill of the driveway, put it in drive. She wouldn't hardly go. I could only get about 1000 rpm in drive. I can rev it in park. I've topped off the transmission fluid and have tried starting in low instead of drive, no help.

I figured it was timing, so went to time it. Couldn't see the dots I was supposed to. It ran best when adjusted full counterclockwise. I took the adjustment bolt off to over adjust and try to see the dots, but it wouldn't turn much past for a screw hole would hit the head.

Took off distributor and reinstalled it 1 tooth clockwise. Finally I could see the dots when timing. Now without the bolt in I could over-adjust it to where I could see the dots. Timed it to 7 BTDC like the FSM says. Couldn't reinstall the bolt because edge of the slot blocked the bolt.

I think for s***s and grins, I'll clamp down the distributor where it is, drive it to see if my no power issue is resolved.

Regardless, I think I have a used distributor on the way. It may be gone, I'll find out soon.

 

[Pin_Head]

It doesn't sound like an ignition problem because ignition problems cause misfiring and backfiring. Ignition problems tend to happen at high RPM and result in stumbling and missing, not a general lack of power. It sounds more like your accelerator cable needs to be adjusted properly so that the throttle can open.

 

[jcarter]

Timed with a Ziptie

I was just looking at this pic again:


If I put a ziptie through the bolt hole, it should hold down the distributor for the time being and I can check for power.

Also, I could mess with the gaps in the distributor to see if I can get rid of the Code 12 deal. This is important because I don't think it'll pass inspection with the CEL on.

Seems easy enough to try. If it works, I can get the exhaust fixed and possibly new plates.

Then its simply wait on the distributor, install it, and I'm done.

 

[jcarter]

Well almost done. I'll have a small project in the spring:
Retorque headbolts; readjust valves; install new fuel pulsation damper & fuel pressure regulator (both OEM). But knowing what I know now, should be 1 day of work.

 

[TomH]

Comment please before I spend more $$$$.
Joe

You know, I find it very frustrating that I'm trying to help you and you don't read my posts. Perhaps your reading comprehension is not what it used to be

The one with the black cap is the throttle cable. Have someone step on the accelerator pedal to the floor (motor off). Adjust the cable so the throttle is just touching the endstop.

The one with the orange cap is the transmission kickdown cable. That adjusts fluid pressure in the valve body of the transmission. There is an adjustment procedure in the FSM.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-...-hard-shift-mostly-between-3rd-overdrive.html

I don't understand why you think the distributor is bad when it runs fine. I don't have much experience with the 3FE, but timing on most EFI engines is handled by the ECU which uses a cam or crank position sensor to clock it. The manual timing only has to be approximate so that the spark will jump to the correct plug.

Make sure that your throttle cable is properly adjusted so the throttle can open all the way.

It doesn't sound like an ignition problem because ignition problems cause misfiring and backfiring. Ignition problems tend to happen at high RPM and result in stumbling and missing, not a general lack of power. It sounds more like your accelerator cable needs to be adjusted properly so that the throttle can open.

I recommend you listen to the two people who have tried so hard to help you.

Have you adjusted the throttle cable and the transmission kick down cable? These things are free to do and should only take 30 minutes max.

Did you read the part where Jon says the kickdown cable adjusts the fluid pressure in the valve body of the transmission?

I'm no expert on the 3FE but my experience does tell me that if you buy a new distributor, you are throwing money away. I could be wrong though.

 

[SiRaDuDe]

Afet your get your cables tigthened, and you solve your CODE 12...

If it was me... I would just borrow (ppboys/autozone) a fuel pressure guage and a combustion chamber pressure guage.

And get that out of the way, just a few minutes of work but grants a lot of worthy info.

Low cylinder pressure could be from rings, but more than likely VALVE adjustments.

Low Fuel could be from regulator, FPD or many other sources.

With a 100% confirmed reading these can be taken out of the equation in just minutes.

 

[jcarter]

Next steps

TomH: Thanks for the slap in the face, I needed that. Cables will be next (today if wife let's me, Happy Thanksgiving).

Siradude: Friday will be fuel pressure and compression check.

Distributor: Used, $100 on its way. I've messed with gapping the old many times and I don't think messing with it again will help, besides FSM says if off get a new one. Also, I'm confident of the 1/2 tooth, 14 degree off issue and want to see if another one fixes it. I'm going to create a template with info showing actual degrees and post a pic.

Next steps in order:

1. Cables: I hate working with cables. I've done this before with bike cables and they always seem to fray or slip through once retightened. That's why I've been putting it off. I printed out the procedure a while back. I'll read through it again and get it done.

2. Old distributor: Get code 12 off by adjusting gaps. Successful or not, try it with ziptied distributor. To make sure distributor is twisted to the correct timing. One thing I didn't report was after I moved distributor 1 tooth, the idle went up quite a bit. I don't know if this is because of Code 12 or what.

3. Pressure - Fuel and Combustion: Good idea to cancel out issues. I'm not sure what kind of combustion pressures I'll have with rings not seated, but it'll be good to see spark plug condition.

4. Used distributor: Install it properly and hope to get distributor bolt back in.

I'm printing it out so I actually follow instructions and DON'T start flying by the seat of my pants again!

 

[jcarter]

Flew by the seat of my pants again

So my son with wife & grand-daughter came over for Thanksgiving yesterday. Dan (son) says, "Let's hear it". So I pulled the EFI fuse to let the ECU reset, ziptied the distributor down (no time to take a pic, but it's coming), & turned her over. It was a beautiful day, so I let her warm up for a test drive to see if my lack of power had to do with timing. It did! And my CEL is not on anymore, so I guess resetting my ECU did it.

We drove for a bit, then had to get back home to go to my parents house for the big meal.

So here we are on my day off, Friday after Thanksgiving, 42 degrees out with 20 mph winds (it was near 70 yesterday, gotta love this St. Louis weather). This morning I figured to get it up to Midas so I can get exhaust fixed and legal. You need to understand, getting this done is top priority! I can fix the cables and check stuff another day, but I need to get it out of the driveway so my now impatient wife can have her parking spot back. Besides, working on it on a cold, windy, nasty day like today is not a lot of fun.

Commentary: On my walk home from Midas, I saw a float buddy with his canoe on top driving down the street. He's going on a 7 mile day trip today. What an idiot!

Midas is backed-up with a lot of business and a couple of guys on vacation, but they hope to get it done today. This would be great! License bureau is open until 7PM.

Wish me luck!

Joe

PS Sunday weather is supposed to be better, so I can do my previous post then.

 

[jcarter]

Throttle cables adjusted + timed with ziptie

Throttle cable (black): This was really loose after 20 years & 220k miles. I did this one first to get a feel for how to tighten. I tightened (12 mm wrench) to where it is more firm but still hits the idle right. In after pic, you can see the shiny threads showing about 3/8" worth of adjustment. If idle is high when I start it, I'll back it off a bit.

Kick-down (red w/ stopper): This one needed 14mm wrench. I noticed the red thing was not on the end of the threaded rod very well. I tried to get this tighter. USE FEELER GAUGE, other posts and FSM showing using a ruler is a bad way to go. I pulled out the 0.8mm gauge (FSM says 0.5-1.5mm) and saw space of the 0.8 plus, so figure it was at about 1.8mm gap. I loosened (opposite way of throttle cable adjustment) to get gap closer. I tightened it back up and with 0.5mm feeler, made sure it slipped in easily.

Before pic with red thing off threaded rod:


After pic with red thing ON threaded rod better and notice clean threaded rod on accelerator cable, huge adjustment.


Ziptie: Had to get a pic of ziptie holding down distributor. It goes through the bolt hole, back up into gap. A temp fix until I install used distributor which is on it's way, but for now, it's working well. I just hope the used distributor fixes my 1/2 tooth off problem.


Next steps are to check fuel pressure & compression. I don't think I need it to be warm for fuel pressure check, so I'll do that first.

 

[jcarter]

Final checks

She's legal! She doesn't sound/feel right for some reason, so I still have some work to do:

Plan for Saturday/Sunday:
1. Install used distributor
2. Check fuel pressure
3. Check oil pressure
3A. If low oil pressure, pull oil pan (AGAIN) and check oil line is tight, also check torque on rod bolts & crank bolts
4. Start it up and warm it up
5. Time it
6. Check compression
7. Check front diff oil level.
8. If everything checks out good, take if for a good long drive, through all gears, from 60 to a complete stop a few times, let cool down, do it again.
9. Change oil - DONE!

If I do ALL of this, I'll have much more confidence in the work I did and will be less worried about it. Of course if any of these pressure checks are not right, I'll be digging into it again. The good thing is now that it's running and legal, I can easily admit defeat and bring it in because it's too cold or I'm too busy with the Holidays.