Winter tires and driving (1 Viewer)

[coleAK]

This is exactly my point. Winter brings a variety of challenges that aren't just sheet ice (again, the ONLY condition where studs actually work for you). Across rain, slush, bare pavement, the million different types of snow, and ice, the only tire able to handle all those conditions safely is a modern studless winter tire. And there's increasingly very little air between the performance of studs and studless on ice, too. Studless tires provide grip on ice not only with a very flexible compound, but also a porous structure that wicks the water melted by the weight of the vehicle in the split second the tire acts on that surface. That melt water is what makes ice slippery. By removing it, and allowing the tread pattern and compound to then key with ice's rock-like surface, grip is facilitated. And to repeat a conclusion from my article above, that grip is provided in a communicative way that enters slides progressively. When studs start to spin, they lose grip instantaneously, with no communication ahead of time. No one prefers that kind of behavior.

And that NAF test says the same thing in its conclusion. To paraphrase it: studs are good on ice. If you don't just drive on ice, the studless options are the better choice.

First off I don’t think you know how studded tires work. And your outside article makes it sound like studded tires are basic “tires” with studs. Most of the best studded tires have the same tread and compound technology as their stud-less counterparts. And If you look at the NAF data studded tires dominate when you look at the last 4 years of reviews. When you read the tire rack data they picked the Firestone as their “studded” tire for comparison? It’s One of the worst studded tires out there. Also I’ll point out your main references are tire rack, who don’t sell studded tires, and Bridgestone, who don’t sell studded tires in the US. Both organizations have incentive to push non-studded tires.

again, I agree For most people in the US a stud-less winter tire is a better option. But that does not mean stud-less are superior winter tires in winter conditions, Because they are not.

 

[04UZJ100]

Come take a trip up to Alaska in January with new Blizzaks and I will roll on 3 year old studded Hakka 9s. Let’s see who makes it through downtown Anchorage and associated round abouts without sliding off the road.

Then let’s drive the Alcan back together at highway speeds at temperatures pushing 40 below and see who’s truck is more sure footed.

Based on your vast knowledge my studded tires are worthless now with 25k on them because the studs are gone and the treads are worn because of driving on pavement so it should be an easy contest!

Bridgestone cannot compete with the world’s foremost winter tire maker out there - Nokian. Period.

 

[04UZJ100]

Here ya go. Treads and studs are totally useless now after 3 seasons.

.....I can’t even find a missing stud

 

[stonepa]

First off I don’t think you know how studded tires work. And your outside article makes it sound like studded tires are basic “tires” with studs. Most of the best studded tires have the same tread and compound technology as their stud-less counterparts. And If you look at the NAF data studded tires dominate when you look at the last 4 years of reviews. When you read the tire rack data they picked the Firestone as their “studded” tire for comparison? It’s One of the worst studded tires out there. Also I’ll point out your main references are tire rack, who don’t sell studded tires, and Bridgestone, who don’t sell studded tires in the US. Both organizations have incentive to push non-studded tires.

again, I agree For most people in the US a stud-less winter tire is a better option. But that does not mean stud-less are superior winter tires in winter conditions, Because they are not.

My guess we all need to agree to disagree. I drove studs for 20 years in Alaska and Minnesota. I stopped driving studs in Alaska 15 years ago when I found that winters had become so mild that studded tires drawbacks weren’t worth the advantages. Blizzaks meet my driving needs fromHomer to Fairbanks so i got rid of the studded tires a long time ago. If i was regularly driving to Deadhorse i may need studs although i drive it atleast once a winter on my Blizzaks.

Your needs obviously may differ.

 

[coleAK]

My guess we all need to agree to disagree. I drove studs for 20 years in Alaska and Minnesota. I stopped driving studs in Alaska 15 years ago when I found that winters had become so mild that studded tires drawbacks weren’t worth the advantages. Blizzaks meet my driving needs fromHomer to Fairbanks so i got rid of the studded tires a long time ago. If i was regularly driving to Deadhorse i may need studs although i drive it atleast once a winter on my Blizzaks.

Your needs obviously may differ.

Mild over the last 15 years? We broke the all time snowfall record for S Central AK in winter of 2011-2012. Last winter was brutally cold. The Mild winters (we had 3 of the last 4), studs were needed even more. On a mild winter in AK the pattern goes: Possibly snow -> rain -> frigid cold -> one 40F day -> below 0F... what the roads end up as is solid clear ice, inches of it. On a “typical” or big winter there is more fresh buffed snow which leads to better traction than ice even with AT tires.

 

[coleAK]

6 winters on my hakka 7, studs still look pretty good. I’ll admit it’s probably more like 4-5 winters of driving as I hardly drove the LX last winter and the one before, spent much more time in the Tesla.

 

[stonepa]

Mild over the last 15 years? We broke the all time snowfall record for S Central AK in winter of 2011-2012. Last winter was brutally cold. The Mild winters (we had 3 of the last 4), studs were needed even more. On a mild winter in AK the pattern goes: Possibly snow -> rain -> frigid cold -> one 40F day -> below 0F... what the roads end up as is solid clear ice, inches of it. On a “typical” or big winter there is more fresh buffed snow which leads to better traction than ice even with AT tires.

You must be new to Alaska. Today’s winters are mild compared pre-2000.

 

[coleAK]

You must be new to Alaska. Today’s winters are mild compared pre-2000.

The glaciers are receding but I wouldn’t consider Record braking snow or record braking lows “mild”. I lived in AK from 1991 to 2000, Left and I’ve been back since 2009 and are here to stay.

 

[BAY2MTN]

My goal is to locate Hakka LT3 275/70 R18 (33.2") "studless" for this season. Has anyone actually put eyes on a set in US? All I've seen is studded. If you run them, they air down and still drive well for you (forest rds/winter trailheads etc)?

Second choice is Blizzak LT in same size. Used to run blizzak dm-v2, pretty solid when they were fresh, but want to try some Nokians as its been a while.

I run KO2 snowflakes apr-nov, they are not good enough for amount of miles we do on double-yellow mt roads while storm chasing (ski) around CO/WY. Don't trust our drivers here, want every advantage possible, esp with the family on board.

I ran the Blizzak LT last season, SF to Squaw Valley/Lake Tahoe (can I still use that name?). LT275/70r18 I wanted to try the Nokians as well, but I couldn't find any distributor.

Unfortunately the winter was not as rough as previous year, so they didn't get put through the ringer. That said, they were comparably lightweight, ran straight without noticeable increase in road hum on the highway. Only on two steep inclines did I have issues, but so did everyone else, so I can't say it was the tires' limitation or physics. From my research, the Nokian would equal or exceed in the criteria I mentioned.

I may sell the four I have as I switched to Toyo ATIII (mountain snowflake rated) and am taking this season off from kids' ski teams.

 

[Eyedaho]

Right. That's a pretty inappropriate insinuation.

That wasn't an insinuation, it was a question. One that I feel is completely appropriate to ask someone writing an article promoting a specific product using data provided by an affiliate of the product manufacturer. If neither Outside magazine nor yourself received any free products nor monetary compensation for the article from Tire Rack or Bridgestone/Firestone, then the answer to that question would be no. Given that companies routinely pay for reviews of their products, that seems like a completely reasonable question.

 

[Eyedaho]

Huh? Wes’s observations definitely align with mine.

That has nothing to do with my question.

 

[snowfiend131]

The response from Nokian when I asked about the R3 SUV vs. the LT3:

"If you are looking for the best performing non-studded winter tire then we would recommend the Hakkapeliitta R3. The R3 is designed to perform optimally as a non-studded winter tire while the LT3 is designed to perform optimally as a studded tire but offered non-studded as well. As long as, the load rating for the R3 works for your vehicle then we would recommend that tire."

A bit vague, but it makes sense I suppose. I suspect the main difference is in the compound. The R3 has "Cryo Crystal 3" in the compound, where the particles, per Nokia's website, "act like built-in studs". The LT3 compound doesn't seem to have these crystals, since it has real studs. Too bad, since the 16.5 32nd's of tread depth on the LT3's would last longer than the 11.5 32nd's on the R3's, and I would appreciate the added durability of an E rated tire off road.

 

[jdbearden]

I run KO2 snowflakes apr-nov, they are not good enough for amount of miles we do on double-yellow mt roads while storm chasing (ski) around CO/WY. Don't trust our drivers here, want every advantage possible, esp with the family on board.

pwag,

How are the Ko2s doing with with the evo corse? still no rubbing? curious minds and all....

Jim

 

[TLC2013]

I am planning on picking up some winter tires for some California Sierra snow trips. Figure I can resuse the stock 18” wheels that came on my 2013 LC and then have a dedicated set of tires and wheels.

Currently running LT275/70R18 all terrains so my initial thought process was to go with this same size for winter/snow tires.

Other option is to go with a narrower LT265/70r18

Anyone have an opinion or first hand experience with these two sizes on the 200 series for winter tires? Or if there is another good 18” size for winter tires I am all ears.

Thanks

 

[WesSiler]

I am planning on picking up some winter tires for some California Sierra snow trips. Figure I can resuse the stock 18” wheels that came on my 2013 LC and then have a dedicated set of tires and wheels.

Currently running LT275/70R18 all terrains so my initial thought process was to go with this same size for winter/snow tires.

Other option is to go with a narrower LT265/70r18

Anyone have an opinion or first hand experience with these two sizes on the 200 series for winter tires? Or if there is another good 18” size for winter tires I am all ears.

Thanks

We run the 265/70-18 Blizzak DM-V2s, literally the highest performing winter tire for SUVs out there. Nice and narrow to put as much weight per area of contact patch possible.

Don't be one of those rubes who runs studs. You'll wear them to the point of uselessness on the highway there and back.

 

[TLC2013]

We run the 265/70-18 Blizzak DM-V2s, literally the highest performing winter tire for SUVs out there. Nice and narrow to put as much weight per area of contact patch possible.

Don't be one of those rubes who runs studs. You'll wear them to the point of uselessness on the highway there and back.

Very cool, good to know. Thanks for the quick response. Was initially timid about running a narrower 265 on the 200.

 

[BAY2MTN]

@TLC2013

I only have experience with Blizzak LT in LT275/70r18 last season (San Francisco to Squaw).

Great experience. Not squishy, lightweight compared to my then street tires, and gave me great grip in the snow (though, last season didn't have that many harsh weather days).

We took the season off due to the whole covid thing, so no ski teams for kids. Also, I've switched from an all season to Toyo Open Country AT3 year round which are snowflake rated, so I don't think I'll be using the Blizzaks any time soon.

If you decide to stick to this size, let me know, I would sell them. Now living in Marin County, but tires are still in my garage in SF.

 

[Sandroad]

We run the 265/70-18 Blizzak DM-V2s, literally the highest performing winter tire for SUVs out there. Nice and narrow to put as much weight per area of contact patch possible.

Don't be one of those rubes who runs studs. You'll wear them to the point of uselessness on the highway there and back.

The DM-V2 doesn't appear to come in that size. Edit: at least not from the Tire Rack. I see Discount Tire has them. Specs ok for the LC?

 

[Eyedaho]

Nice and narrow to put as much weight per area of contact patch possible.

Tire width won't really change your contact patch size significantly. This has been endlessly debated with the sand driving folks (AUS), but your contact patch in square inches is essentially your vehicle weight/4 tires/tire psi. A narrower tire in deep snow will cut a narrower track, which may help with handling and not getting stuck.

I agree that for the TLC2013's usage with a fairly long highway drive, studless snow tires would be the best bet. There are several high performing studless SUV tires on the market, and you may find a top performer for a good price with some research.

 

[TLC2013]

@TLC2013

I only have experience with Blizzak LT in LT275/70r18 last season (San Francisco to Squaw).

Great experience. Not squishy, lightweight compared to my then street tires, and gave me great grip in the snow (though, last season didn't have that many harsh weather days).

We took the season off due to the whole covid thing, so no ski teams for kids. Also, I've switched from an all season to Toyo Open Country AT3 year round which are snowflake rated, so I don't think I'll be using the Blizzaks any time soon.

If you decide to stick to this size, let me know, I would sell them. Now living in Marin County, but tires are still in my garage in SF.

Thanks BAY2MTN. Going to do some more digging and research on my tire choice, appreciate the offer. I’ll be in touch.