Winter tires and driving (1 Viewer)

[WesSiler]

Do you have experience with modern studded Nokians? I hear (and believe that) that they are bounds and leaps better than field studded tires of yore.

Yep, and they're really good! They just don't offer much beyond the non studded unless you're driving on one of those polished ice race tracks like that used in the nokian ad someone embedded above. Remember: the only thing studs themselves do is grip bare ice between zero and 32 degrees. They cannot help in any other condition.

In those picture perfect conditions, the grip studs provide is impressive. But beyond comparative lap times, the experience of using them is actually pretty awful. Because they either grip or spin, with nothing in between, they don't enter slides progressively, offer no communication to the driver, and make recovering a slide extremely challenging. There's no way to tell if you're about to lose traction, until you've actually lost it. So, on that same polished ice raceway, a studless tire may be a bit slower, but is actually much more fun, and easier to drive on. Think perfectly controlled, low speed drifts the entire way around, even for a novice driver.

I have no way to prove this right now, but it could be a good idea for a future story or video if I can put together the right venue and assets. Does the grip-or-spin nature of studded tires compromise the ability of modern stability control safety and traction aids? A good hypotheses might be that since those aids operate in the slide zone of the tires, fitting a tire that doesn't slide, but just loses all grip instantaneously, may not allow brake based aids to do their job. This could interfere with stability control's ability to prevent a catastrophic loss of control on the road, or a system like our 200s' crawl from digging us out of obstacles. Anyways, just a theory for now.

 

[WesSiler]

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

lastly you claim to be a journalist, you write articles, the piece you wrote on winter tires for outside was a story, nothing more.

you received funding from Bridgestone.

And people wonder why the level of discourse on forums is so poor...

It's really lazy accusing journalists of inappropriate financial relationships. I've been really patient trying to explain that nothing like this exists. Maybe for social media influencers, but certainly not at actual publications.

Knock it off please. Let's keep Mud a place where intelligent people feel like their contributions are welcome.

 

[Eyedaho]

Yep, and they're really good! They just don't offer much beyond the non studded unless you're driving on one of those polished ice race tracks like that used in the nokian ad someone embedded above. Remember: the only thing studs themselves do is grip bare ice between zero and 32 degrees. They cannot help in any other condition.

In those picture perfect conditions, the grip studs provide is impressive. But beyond comparative lap times, the experience of using them is actually pretty awful. Because they either grip or spin, with nothing in between, they don't enter slides progressively, offer no communication to the driver, and make recovering a slide extremely challenging. There's no way to tell if you're about to lose traction, until you've actually lost it. So, on that same polished ice raceway, a studless tire may be a bit slower, but is actually much more fun, and easier to drive on. Think perfectly controlled, low speed drifts the entire way around, even for a novice driver.

I have no way to prove this right now, but it could be a good idea for a future story or video if I can put together the right venue and assets. Does the grip-or-spin nature of studded tires compromise the ability of modern stability control safety and traction aids? A good hypotheses might be that since those aids operate in the slide zone of the tires, fitting a tire that doesn't slide, but just loses all grip instantaneously, may not allow brake based aids to do their job. This could interfere with stability control's ability to prevent a catastrophic loss of control on the road, or a system like our 200s' crawl from digging us out of obstacles. Anyways, just a theory for now.

You're really reaching.

 

[WesSiler]

My studded Hakka 5 lasted 9 winters on our old 4matic my son drives now. 4 of those winters were warm (for AK) with much time on pavement. I’m on my 7th winter (and 35-40k miles so far) on the Hakka 7 on my LX and the studs are all fine.

Also, car tires have a useable life of six years from date of manufacture. Google how to decode the date stamp on the sidewall.

Regardless of wear markers, running a tire past that shelf life risks delamination, blowouts, and Paul Walker death s***.

If you listen to no other advice, at least listen to this. Especially on your son's car.

 

[M1911]

Deleted

 

[JOFS]

We run the 265/70-18 Blizzak DM-V2s, literally the highest performing winter tire for SUVs out there. Nice and narrow to put as much weight per area of contact patch possible.

Don't be one of those rubes who runs studs. You'll wear them to the point of uselessness on the highway there and back.

And people wonder why the level of discourse on forums is so poor...

It's really lazy accusing journalists of inappropriate financial relationships. I've been really patient trying to explain that nothing like this exists. Maybe for social media influencers, but certainly not at actual publications.

Knock it off please. Let's keep Mud a place where intelligent people feel like their contributions are welcome.

Poor discourse

I guess it is ok for you to call anyone who runs studs rubes but if someone questions you they are wrong
I guess the definition of intelligent discourse varies and I am such a rube that I can’t understand it.

I am done with this interaction but couldn’t let the Hipocrisy go unchecked
I will accept that I am a Rube in the mind of some of this site somehow manage to continue to survive despite having a clear lack of intellect.
John

 

[unclemat]

Also, car tires have a useable life of six years from date of manufacture.

Inaccurate as a general statement. Some recommend that, but many say up to 10 years, e.g. including Michelin (source).

Of course depends on the operating conditions, storage, etc. If a tire does not show signs of cracking or tread delamination it would be premature to ditch it at 6 year mark.

 

[SWUtah]

Hey what do you guys think is the LX 570 good with 285/55/20 BFG KO2’s as long as I always stay in Florida for winter driving

 

[04UZJ100]

Knock it off please. Let's keep Mud a place where intelligent people feel like their contributions are welcome.

Says the guy who did this but drives literally one of the most inefficient vehicles offered for sale today.

I Got a Vasectomy Because of Climate Change

Getting one was, by far, the most powerful personal action I could take for our planet

www.outsideonline.com

 

[slipkid13]

Well I don't have a dog in the fight between studded and non-studded tires but I can't take the opinion seriously of some who virtue signals so hard that it involves a vasectomy "for the planet". That is a level of derangement I can't wrap my head around.

 

[coleAK]

And people wonder why the level of discourse on forums is so poor...

Knock it off please. Let's keep Mud a place where intelligent people feel like their contributions are welcome.

Look in the mirror and read above.

and also strong journalism skills. Cherry pick out the parts you feel you can criticize me on, take out of contest other parts of my post, and don’t own up to where you are wrong.

and I’m done with the childish exchange, this isn’t social media, which I’m not on at all for this very reason.

 

[coleAK]

Also, car tires have a useable life of six years from date of manufacture. Google how to decode the date stamp on the sidewall.

Regardless of wear markers, running a tire past that shelf life risks delamination, blowouts, and Paul Walker death s***.

If you listen to no other advice, at least listen to this. Especially on your son's car.

If it makes you feel better he got this car this winter with a new set of Hakka 9’s. And yes I’m aware of tire life. I’ve also spoken with a few guys that work in tire RnD and they feel that seasonal tires (that spend half their life indoors not on a car) can go a little longer since UV exposure is a factor in breakdown. Not scientific by any means but I’m usually ok going a little longer if it is a car I don’t drive much or at high speeds.

However the last few years I only used this car to commute in town so entirely at <50 mph. My point was these were old studded tires with lots of miles and mostly intact studs and functional studs.

 

[WesSiler]

Says the guy who did this but drives literally one of the most inefficient vehicles offered for sale today.

I Got a Vasectomy Because of Climate Change

Getting one was, by far, the most powerful personal action I could take for our planet

www.outsideonline.com

I think that fuel economy is actually one of the things the 200 does well. We're currently getting 13mpg post-build. That's living in a state with 80 MPH speed limits, big mountains, and an awful, awful lot of dirt roads. Also turns out we have more animal strikes per miles travelled than anywhere else: 10 Worst States for Animal Collisions [2020 Study] Which also goes a long ways towards explaining the need for a big truck.

13 MPG might not sound great, but use any other vehicle in similar conditions and it's going to struggle to do the same. Both our other trucks return essentially the same number. There's a difference between the real world and a window sticker.

It's also funny how people latch so hard onto vehicles as they relate to personal carbon footprints. Our houses and our air travel generate an awful lot more than our vehicles do. Which is also why less of us adds up to such a reduction in hypothetical future pollution.

 

[WesSiler]

Inaccurate as a general statement. Some recommend that, but many say up to 10 years, e.g. including Michelin (source).

Of course depends on the operating conditions, storage, etc. If a tire does not show signs of cracking or tread delamination it would be premature to ditch it at 6 year mark.

"Keep five years in mind
After five years or more in use, your tires should be thoroughly inspected at least once per year by a professional."

It's also worth noting that the tires that killed Paul Walker were six years old. Obviously a 200 isn't a supercar, but I'd imagine a winter tire on a 5,800 pound truck lives a harder life than most. You do you, but tire life isn't something I like to mess with.

 

[MTKID]

Remember: the only thing studs themselves do is grip bare ice between zero and 32 degrees. They cannot help in any other condition.

I only read a few pages back, so I apologize if you already explained this, but what causes a stud to stop working below zero?

 

[WesSiler]

I only read a few pages back, so I apologize if you already explained this, but what causes a stud to stop working below zero?

My understanding is the ice becomes too hard for them to penetrate. It's in the studies linked in that article I put together a couple years back. That's one of the reasons that, even in Alaska, conditions where studs may help exist only six percent of the time during winter months.

Note that, on the bare ice that is the only surface studs can grip, their grip reduces progressively as temperatures fall towards zero.

 

[MTKID]

My understanding is the ice becomes too hard for them to penetrate. It's in the studies linked in that article I put together a couple years back. That's one of the reasons that, even in Alaska, conditions where studs may help exist only six percent of the time during winter months.

Note that, on the bare ice that is the only surface studs can grip, their grip reduces progressively as temperatures fall towards zero.

I appreciate the explanation. I like to know what may be causing the driving dynamics of my vehicle and be able to anticipate those things.

 

[jamgolf]

I did not even realize that I am a "rube".
Just found out ... better let my wife and kids know we are country bumpkins

On another note, on my 3 visits to the country of Finland and to the northern town of Oulu in the middle of winter, I was amazed how effortlessly everyone drives on surfaces where I had a hard time even taking a few steps without face planting. Found out about Nokian tires and studded tires. I had studded tires on my Land Rover last winter and I am a believer. Need to order them for LC200 as well. Just about the only thing I did not like about studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta is the noise from studs, when roads have no snow/ice. But for safety of my family I can deal with noise.

 

[M1911]

Certainly snow tires help, but what also helps is folks knowing how to drive in the snow. Yesterday I was driving in the snow in suburban Boston. The Honda sedan in front of me spun its tires each time the light turned green. I think the driver was just stomping on the gas pedal as though the pavement was dry...

 

[coleAK]

My understanding is the ice becomes too hard for them to penetrate. It's in the studies linked in that article I put together a couple years back. That's one of the reasons that, even in Alaska, conditions where studs may help exist only six percent of the time during winter months.

Note that, on the bare ice that is the only surface studs can grip, their grip reduces progressively as temperatures fall towards zero.

Think about it, that doesn’t make sense, do crampons stop working at 0F? I can tell you for sure that my studs bite in the ice well down into the -30’s F. My garage is on the north side of my house and that side also faces the mountain. Basically I get no sun and end up with a 4-6” a solid ice glacier there every winter, obvious marks from my tire studs are seen in the ice. So yes Even at approaching -40F my studded tires obviously bite, so do my Salomon SpikeCross, my studded bike tires, and the metal edges on my skis.