Which plugs should I be running - B, 2B, 3B, H and 2H diesels

[lostmarbles]

.....Possible cause of first set to go is alot of on off on off with key .....

I agree. (That would probably have caused successive fast-heat cycles with very little cool-down time inbetween - which would probably have blown the plugs by overheating them.)

Excellent thread going on here.

Is there a way of speeding up the glow process on a glow contoller system?
Im not impatient, but my missus sure is, to a point where she wants me to get something newer and not such a pita for her.
Converting to super glow was my idea, but is a nightmare wiring wise. Simply putting 6v plugs in also it seems a bad idea..
(10/83 2H motor, using original H motor glow controllers and with 8.5v plugs currently fitted)

If she can't be educated on the coolness factor of having Glow Controller pre-heat Dave... just buy her an old Honda Civic and ban her from driving the BJ.

Seriously though, I don't think you can run an OEM Glow Controller with pre-heat times faster than around 15 seconds while having it functioning/glowing properly.

You could of course experiment with your own unique mix of "controller coil length" and "different plugs". But then I think the big hurdle would be in achieving long-term reliability.

Another alternative is to install a Wilson switch (with an idiot light) and try a set of "fast-heating twin-filament plugs" (that apparently allow fast pre-heat and then automatically increase their own resistance for protection against melt-down).

Perhaps these plugs with a Wilson Switch?:

(It would be a bit of an experiment because I'm not aware of anyone have used those plugs before. They apparently have a nominal voltage of 12V ... which is interesting in itself.)

 

[lostmarbles]

I feel the need to add a bit more about the plugs I suggested in my last post...................

Those GJ121TO are said to be "12V plugs" (rather than 8.5V or 10.5V for example) because the Italian manufacturer (E-TECNO 1) reckons they are the replacement for a whole range of OEM plugs (and not just those 8.5V and 10.5V plugs). So putting "the battery voltage" on the plug seems to be the sensible thing to do (and I understand that).

Apparently when you connect them straight to your 12V battery they get to the correct temperature for cranking (900 oC or whatever) in just 4 to 7 seconds.

And Authorities in Europe are apparently forcing car manufacturers to provide "after-glow" in order to restrict "diesel engine start-up pollution". So these plugs are designed to withstand being left connected to your battery for up to 180 seconds to safely provide this afterglow. (And the word safely still apparently applies with 14V busbar voltages which are achievable with your alternator running).

This type of thinking by a manufacturer helps explain to me why we get so much "cross-referencing confusion" in their catalogues.

The way I see it, to run those plugs in one of our 12V #B or #H -powered cruisers you'd have to:

1. Do nothing other than change the plugs if you already have an owner-modified Wilson Switch set-up (wired similar to what's shown in post #39)
2. Change the timer from a 15-20 second version to a 5 -6 second version if you have a Fixed Delay set-up (wired similar to post #39 also)
3. Replace your Glow Controller with an "idiot light" and rewire it all as per "Wilson Switch" of "Fixed Delay" (but with the same modification suggested in 2 above if you choose "Fixed Delay".)
4. Dump your "timer", dropping resistor, current sensor etc if you have Super Glow and rewire as per "Wilson Switch" or "Fixed Delay".

Note: If you want to utilise "after-glow" you'll need to have a glow/pre-heat switch separate from your "start key-switch" (which leads you towards the "Wilson Switch set-up").

But ....and it is a BIG "but"..........this manufacturer has lost sight of what makes someone like me want to own a classic vehicle. I want mine to be "as original as possible" and there is no way in the world that I'll dump my Glow Controller to fit their GJ121TO plugs. So if they make their other plugs (that this one is supposed to supersede) obsolete now, then I'll just go elsewhere for my "old technology plugs".

(Actually I can't choose plugs from them right now for my BJ40 anyway. They show no less than FOUR "old single-coil style" 8.5V plugs, all of which have identical Toyota dimensions. But they supply no information in their catalogue to tell me which one would draw enough current to make my controller glow in 15 - 20 seconds.)




BTW- Every day now I find a new bundle of Emailed information has arrived from my "behind-the-scenes helper". I now have so many plug catalogues stored on my computer that I'm probably running out of storage space! So most of the leg-work in locating catalogues and talking to manufacturers/distributors was done by him. (Thanks Rudi)

 

[Biche]

I asked my dealer for the 23V Glow plugs(19850-68020), he came back saying that Toyota discontinued this part number and are no more available. Just to let you know... I sourced elsewhere...

 

[lostmarbles]

I asked my dealer for the 23V Glow plugs(19850-68020), he came back saying that Toyota discontinued this part number and are no more available. Just to let you know... I sourced elsewhere...

Thanks. (I think Toyota treats glow plugs rather like batteries, light bulbs and oil in that they really just expect most owners to use alternative suppliers anyway.)

And to continue this thread, BJ40Green/Rudi recently sent me this image from a VSP catalogue: (I've added the voltage ratings myself in red ink.)



I'm inserting it here to try and explain my uncertainty (that I mentioned in post #1 under the heading "Exceptions") about the plugs for some pre-1975/76 BJ40 and HJ45 models. (This catalogue doesn't mention the HJ45 but it does include the BJ43 and BJ43V there?)

I have a strong suspicion that we can consider that 56020 = 56021 = 56022 = 68030. In other words, I suspect a plug like the 8.5V PT104 from manufacturer HKT would work well as a replacement in all the models (including pre-1975/76) where Toyota originally specified/used any of those plug part numbers.

And I also similarly suspect 56010 = 56012 = 68040.

And this is why I have listed only 6 basic types of plug in post #1 (and why I omitted mentioning any 8V plugs, 19V plugs etc.)

 

[bj40green]

I asked my dealer for the 23V Glow plugs(19850-68020), he came back saying that Toyota discontinued this part number and are no more available. Just to let you know... I sourced elsewhere...

The following plugs should be the replacements for 19850-68020:
Denso DG233, VSP PT108, HKT PT108, JKT PT108, May PT108, EIKO GT213 and Bosch GPT213.

Hope this helps to find a replacement.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

The following plugs should be the replacements for 19850-68020:
Denso DG233, VSP PT108, HKT PT108, JKT PT108, May PT108, EIKO GT213 and Bosch GPT213.

Hope this helps to find a replacement.

Rudi

Cheers Rudi.

I've just gone back to post #1 now and added all the Denso part numbers you've supplied me with (and various others too).

And I've deleted any "new Bosch numbers" I had there (like 0-250-202-115) in favour of keeping just the old style ones.

Similarly I've reverted to just one type of part number there for NGK plugs too.

Edit later:
I decided to add part of your Excel spreadsheet here:



It lays out the information extremely well and provides some useful additional cross-referencing for our "6 basic plugs".

PS. You will notice that a couple of the MAY plugs conflict with their VSP and HKT counterparts. This is of concern to Rudi & myself too. But the only information we have found for MAY-branded plugs has been "cross-referencing information" (and I suspect those plugs are erroneous).

 

[Biche]

The following plugs should be the replacements for 19850-68020:
Denso DG233, VSP PT108, HKT PT108, JKT PT108, May PT108, EIKO GT213 and Bosch GPT213.

Hope this helps to find a replacement.

Rudi

Thanks Rudi, I receive mine yesterday from 4WheelAuto.com yesterday. Working great!

 

[bj40green]

Thanks Rudi, I receive mine yesterday from 4WheelAuto.com yesterday. Working great!

Hi Biche, just a few questions for our research;
Did you swap to the Wilson Switch set up?
Which plug did you order / use?
How long do you have to pre glow for a smooth and smokeless start?

Thanks in advance,

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

I think this email communication between myself and Rudi will be of interest to others here who want to know what current their plugs should be drawing: (12V + Glow Controller):


(Read from bottom to top)

 

[Biche]

Hi Biche, just a few questions for our research;
Did you swap to the Wilson Switch set up?
Which plug did you order / use?
How long do you have to pre glow for a smooth and smokeless start?

Thanks in advance,

Rudi

The Wilson setup was already there, but not as it should be. So I fixed that.
I ordered 23V from 4WheelAuto and they send me some Gen Trading Co. PN#GPPT153 which looks to match the PT-153 for the 1HZ/HDT engine.

It's not even a week since they have been installed but always started without a trouble and smokeless. I'm holding around 8-10 seconds before cranking it up.

Here a picture of the gp box:

 

[lostmarbles]

The Wilson setup was already there, but not as it should be. So I fixed that.
I ordered 23V from 4WheelAuto and they send me some Gen Trading Co. PN#GPPT153 which looks to match the PT-153 for the 1HZ/HDT engine.
It's not even a week since they have been installed but always started without a trouble and smokeless. I'm holding around 8-10 seconds before cranking it up.

Looks like a good choice Biche!

I believe PT153 is "super quick" compared to PT108 which is listed by me in this thread for 23V applications and which is just specified as "quick". (Even though I don't like using these misleading glow-speed descriptors.)

For others wanting faster "Wilson Switch 24V plugs" like this, PT153 appears to cross-reference to Toyota 19850-58010 and Bosch GPT228.



PS. I think if someone were to use them on "Fixed Delay pre-heat" then they should really change their timer at the same time (to one that illuminates the pre-heat light for just 8-10 seconds).

 

[lostmarbles]

I needn't have worried. My new "DC clamp meter" arrived from Shanghai without a hitch. (Instructions are in Chinese but who needs them anyway?)

So here's a video I've just made of the performance of my HKT PT104 glow plugs in my 1979 12 volt BJ40 landcruiser:

YouTube - HKT-brand PT104 8.5Volt glow plugs

You will see that the initial current surge is over 100 amperes and it drops down to around 33 amperes in around 30 seconds.

And you will also see that the busbar voltage eventually rises to a voltage that perfectly matches my glow plug voltage-spec (as the Controller and plugs begin to glow brightly and as their resistances increase).



PS. This makes me wonder why your EIKO GT208 plugs won't glow your controller Rudi. (Because 33A is considerable less than 4 x 10A .... But then I know the accuracy of your meter was more questionable than mine.)

 

[lostmarbles]

Today I tested the brand-new VSP PT104 8.5V plugs I had sitting in my spare engine and found they glow my Controller just as well as my HKT plugs do.

I took some video but I don't think think there's much point in uploading it because it looks pretty much the same as for my HKT plugs (in my last post).

Pete had trouble with the VSP-brand in his 24 volt truck and since I mentioned this and had some VSP-brand plugs on hand, I felt it was only fair (to sellers of VSP plugs) to check their performance myself.

So maybe the problem is restricted to the 20.5V plugs (or even just one batch of them)?

Anyway ... I'm certainly happy with my VSP plugs and would happily purchase that brand again.



PS. Just a couple of things that came to mind as I testing them.....

1. The busbar plug-connection tabs on my old engine were slightly "splayed" (from nut-overtightening by the PO). This can reduce the "electrical contact surface area" and is something to watch for (and possibly correct).
2. These old busbars were designed for M5 threads (and M5 nuts) and the smaller M4 sizing of modern plugs reduces "contact surface area" in itself. I combat this by fitting two nusts either side of each "busbar tab". (These nuts are the type that have "inbuilt flat washers" and I fit the lower nut inverted.)
3. My original engine has nice plastic collars upon which the "plug hexes" rest when the plugs are torqued home. This is a nice feature that stops water/mud/debris getting in around the threads (part number 19877-56010). My spare engine doesn't have any of these and I'll bet there are a lot of other engines that have lost them too. (Bad news is - I suspect they are no longer available.)
4. And finally ... Here's Denso's recommendation for glow plug torque:

 

[Dougal]

Tom, I have a question that you are ideally placed to answer.

In two of my diesel vehicles I want to install a booster to the cabin heater, the goal is to both place more load on the engine in warmup and to convert this load to heat in the cabin heater lines. For defrost on the chilly mornings we get down here. Otherwise a 10km drive still isn't enough to get the inside of the car warm.

The plan is to put a resistance heater of some type in the cabin inflow line. I was wondering if a glowplug is the answer.

So, which, if any, plugs are suitable for the 14.2-14.7v which they will get on a running engine, will they survive in a coolant line with the tip submerged in water and how many watts would I get from them in such a situation?

 

[lostmarbles]

Tom, I have a question that you are ideally placed to answer.

In two of my diesel vehicles I want to install a booster to the cabin heater, the goal is to both place more load on the engine in warmup and to convert this load to heat in the cabin heater lines. For defrost on the chilly mornings we get down here. Otherwise a 10km drive still isn't enough to get the inside of the car warm.

The plan is to put a resistance heater of some type in the cabin inflow line. I was wondering if a glowplug is the answer.

So, which, if any, plugs are suitable for the 14.2-14.7v which they will get on a running engine, will they survive in a coolant line with the tip submerged in water and how many watts would I get from them in such a situation?

Why not install a block heater (and plug it in overnight) like those people in Canada do Dougal? That way you should get heat from your existing heater setup immediately in the morning. (And using mains-power in your garage instead of vehicle-battery-power has advantages in itself.)

I think immersing glow plug tips in coolant would vaporise the coolant nearby without actually transfering much heat to the coolant-flow (assuming that's what you intended to do). And I think the heat-transfer-surface-area of a glow plug tip is too small to rapidly heat coolant even if you could lower the tip temperature sufficiently to stop the "instant vaporisation problem".



PS. And manufacturers claim that getting oil on a glow plug tip can "blow holes in the tip" when they are next energised ... so I'd hate to think what immersing them in coolant would do! (I think the tip metal may be somewhat porous.)

PPS. You're "thinking outside the square" Dougal. And apparently that is taboo. Would you believe a prospective employer recently declined my job application after deciding in my interview that I was aflicted with this very same attribute/handicap? Apparently you must always do only what everyone else already does!

 

[Dougal]

PPS. You're "thinking outside the square" Dougal. And apparently that is taboo. Would you believe a prospective employer recently declined my job application after deciding in my interview that I was aflicted with this very same attribute/handicap? Apparently you must always do only what everyone else already does!

Yeah I'm a shocker for that, which is one of the reasons I work for myself. But this idea was actually suggested by someone on the Outerlimits forum when I was asking about converting air-conditioning to reverse cycle to work as a heat-pump in cold conditions.
For the record the reverse cycle air-con is very doable in some cars but the pipe and TX valve layout in my work car makes it a big PITA.

I could get a block heater for my Isuzu, but I think someone will eventually drive off with it plugged in. My little work car I don't think has anywhere to put one. Not to mention my garage is full of junk and starting is generally fine, it's just cabin heat and I feel like I bankroll the electricity companies enough already.

It seems an experiment is in order. Would you be able to supply a source and part number for a short glow plug of suitable voltage that will hopefully suck around 30-40 amps? I have some direct-injection glow plugs here but they're far too long (100+mm).
If I can get 300 watts of heat I think it'll be enough to tip the balance, get the car defrosting earlier and more heat to my toes for the first 5km.

 

[lostmarbles]

I'll email you Dougal

 

[derelict]

I was following this thread but faded away when it got warmer and I didnt have any troubles with under glowing. Well, its stil hot here but in a month or so, the morning temps will start to drop again and the same problem will arise. The Superglow timer in my BJ60 is not glowing enough at all to get a good clean start. As much as I would like the turn key and let it do all the work timer to remain, it would be more cost effective and better in the long run to go with a manual Wilson switch system. Ive looked through all the various posts and put this little harness diagram together based off of the posts. Does this look correct (anyone) before I go chopping things up. I will have to upgrade the plugs to handle the increased voltage (Ill check your charts) and then do something about the resistor. The location of the resistor is actually on the intake manifold. So, its not really removable completely without leaving an open hole so Im guessing that to remove it from the system, I just connect the wires to each other and "jump" it?

 

[lostmarbles]

.... The Superglow timer in my BJ60 is not glowing enough at all to get a good clean start.....more cost effective and better in the long run to go with a manual Wilson switch system.

Ive looked through all the various posts and put this little harness diagram together based off of the posts. Does this look correct...

Hi there.

My wiring diagram (that I'm looking at here at home) covers both 12V and 24V (and all 1983 FJ, BJ, HJ, 60 series). So I'm assuming you're 24V. Is this correct? (But I had a feeling all BJ60 cruisers could be 12V???)

And this diagram shows an RW wire (or "RB wire" depending on the loom) being used to earth the "glow plug indicator light". So you are right to earth that wire directly to the bodywork (rather than via the "glow plug timer" as it is now). That way the light will glow for as long as you hold-down your new momentary switch.

Now the wire from your momentary switch (that will also feed the juice to the live side of your "glow plug indicator light") you say goes to the operating coil of your "main glow relay".

If by "main glow relay" you mean the one that controls "1st stage superglow" then the main contacts inside this relay should connect your battery directly to your busbar and not pass this current through your "dropping resistor". So you don't need to do anything to your "dropping resistor". (You don't need to disconnect it, remove it, or even bypass it.)

But I'm confused because my diagram says the "coil feed wire" for this "main relay" is BR (black with red tracer) and not BY (black with yellow tracer).

But then this is probably not an issue ... because I've seen discrepancies with diagram-versus-reality in colour codes before.

Now the feed TO your momentary switch must simply be "live" whenever your key is "on" to enable you to apply either "preheat" or "afterglow" as you wish. So if your selected wire complies with this then you should be OK. (You can check with a multimeter.)

Note: I don't think you want passengers to be able to play with things and turn on your "glow" while your key is in "accessory" or "off".

And I think if you convert to a "Wilson Switch setup" you need to remove the juice permanently from the Timer so it doesn't ever "come to life".

(My diagram shows the "live feed wire" to the Timer as being BY.)

.... I will have to upgrade the plugs to handle the increased voltage (Ill check your charts)

10.5V for 12V cruiser or 23V for 24V cruiser.

 

[lostmarbles]

Toyota LJ78 FSM description of the workings of "Superglow"

Additional Toyota-sourced information has just come to my attention thanks to this thread by Akifjanjua:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...-bj46-super-glow-pre-heating-timer-issue.html

Apparently the diagram below is for an LJ78 Prado but I think the explanations given there are likely to also apply to the earlier superglow systems used on our BJ and HJ 40/60 series. So here it is........



Hope others find it as useful as I do.

(Thanks to Akifjanjua)