Which plugs should I be running - B, 2B, 3B, H and 2H diesels (2 Viewers)

[lostmarbles]

Thanks heaps to my helpers (email and pm) ...and particularly to both Rudi and Vince (without whom I would have been completely lost).

Errr Perhaps I shouldn't say "lost" considering my username.

As you can see (if you've read my posts before and if you re-read them now) - I've simplified (and hopefully improved) the labelling of the 3 basic pre-heating systems and made improvements in describing how drivers generally start their vehicles with each system. I've also tried to use "Toyota terminology" throughout with is very important I believe.

But that's enough for today. ("Wipe your sword" ... as one of my work colleagues used to say at the end of the day in a desk job I once had.)



Edit: I'm getting so tired I suddenly started wondering if drivers of LH-drive cruisers turn there keys in the opposite direction to me ... like clockwise instead of anti-clockwise. (I began thinking their start key-switch may be the other side of their steering column when the column itself is positioned on the wrong side of the tub in those weird countries.)...Definitely time for bed .... or ...maybe time for some ALCOHOL perhaps?"

 

[amaurer]

You're a busy bee Tom, great info here.

 

[VTCDN]

Edit: I'm getting so tired I suddenly started wondering if drivers of LH-drive cruisers turn there keys in the opposite direction to me ... like clockwise instead of anti-clockwise. (I began thinking the ignition switch may be the other side of the steering column when the column itself is positioned on the wrong side of the tub in those weird countries.)...?"

RHD have ignition keys all set for south paws (left handed folks) ?

Man No Wonder , your driving on the wrong side of the road, that's why !!

"Lost" , My wife is a South Paw , you have any STIHL chainsaws for left'ys down there ? MS260 in left or goofy

VT

I know your starter switches are mounted for right handed operation , they mostly are. I was gettin at you wrong side drivers have south paws / left handed starter switches.. Ya know down-under and backwards flushing !

Here and in Jersey CI (just above France) both on my cars have the ignition set for my right handedness ..

 

[darthvincor]

Superglow

Here's a picture of my ignition switch.
It's a 1985 HJ60, 12 volts, superglow.

 

[VTCDN]

Mine was posted as a JOKE ..

All cars that i know of , IF they have the ignition on the steering column , are mounted for the right handed.
Some Saab, Porch , PVR hide them

VT

 

[lostmarbles]

Here's a picture of my ignition switch.
It's a 1985 HJ60, 12 volts, superglow.

Thanks Vince. I've incorporated your photo in my earlier post as an example of a "Super Glow start key-switch".

And I've altered my explanation of Super Glow after looking at more Toyota information and after reading your latest Email (Please let me know if my explanation still doesn't conform to how your cruiser behaves.)

Mine was posted as a JOKE ..

All cars that i know of , IF they have the ignition on the steering column , are mounted for the right handed.
Some Saab, Porch , PVR hide them

VT

Ha ha. Vince was actually helping me with the earlier post of mine rather than trying to dispell "my late-night brain fart" where I briefly thought LH-drive cruisers may have their key-switches on the other side of their steering columns VT

 

[lostmarbles]

OK posts #1 and #19 I am trying to make as "key reference posts" in this thread.

This post is largely unnecessary but it shows the plugs known to be used by certain models based on the Toyota-only research that I've done so far. (It is incomplete and will likely remain that way.)

And the footnotes are based on my BJ4# knowledge which may (or may not) be tainted by the part of the world I live in. (Australasia)


12V
Glow controller 8.5V (19850-68030)
BJ40 (B), BJ42 (3B), BJ43 (B), BJ45 (3B), HJ45 (H), HJ47 (2H)

Fixed delay 10.5V (19850-68010)
BJ60 (3B), BJ70 (3B), BJ73 (3B), BJ75 (3B), HJ60 (2H), HJ75 (2H)

Super glow 6V (19850-68050/51)
BJ42 (3B), BJ70 (3B), BJ73 (3B), HJ47 (2H), HJ60 (2H), HJ75 (2H)



24V
Glow controller 20.5V (19850-68040)
BJ40 (B), BJ41 (2B), BJ42 (3B), BJ43 (B), BJ44 (2B)

Fixed delay 23V (19850-68020)
BJ60, BJ70 (3B), BJ73 (3B), BJ75 (3B), HJ60 (2H)

Super glow 14V (19850-68060)
BJ42 (3B), BJ45 (3B), BJ46 (3B), BJ70 (3B), BJ73 (3B), BJ75 (3B), HJ60 (2H)




Footnotes:

• The 12 volt BJ42 (3B) model appears to be very straight forward. Models produced before Oct 1982 should generally be Glow Controller (with 8.5V plugs) and those produced after Oct 1982 should be Super Glow (with 6V plugs)
• For most markets, production of the BJ40 (B) ceased immediately the BJ42 (3B) entered production. However, for at least one marketplace, the BJ40 (B) continued on till the demise of the 40-series in late 1984.

 

[bj40green]

Tom,

Congrats! What a extensive job!
The only things missing now are the model years and destination markets.
Just kidding, just kidding...

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

Questions Questions Questions

I'm puzzled right now by the HJ61 model. Most searches show it runs a 12HT engine yet some searches appear to show it as running a 2H engine ex-factory!

Surely Toyota wouldn't have used the same basic model designation for vehicles having entirely different engines? Can someone shed light on this?

The BJ61 (3B) is a little confusing to me too! (Where should it sit with its plugs in post #27?) Edit: I've since deleted the BJ61 from here in the belief that it runs a 13BT and not a 3B. (See darthvincor's post below.)

And I note that Direct Injection engines 12HT, 1HZ, 1HDT and 1PZ all appear to run glow plugs. ...Up until doing this thread I had thought all DI engines used glow SCREENS (or perhaps zero pre-heat) instead of glow plugs! (Well ...I did admit earlier on that my knowledge/experience is severely limited.)



PS. While I had offered earlier in this thread to help correct plug-manufacturers' catalogue errors (in return for a donation to Japanese Red Cross) ... I've edited that offer out now because providing production timelines (which plug-manufacturers/retailers like to do) is fraught with problems when dealing with "the world scene" coupled with "vehicles which are decades old".

 

[darthvincor]

I'll try and help with the 60 section, which is the one I'm most familiar with.

The standard HJ61 always has a 12HT engine. (this I'm fairly certain of)

The BJ61 has the 13BT engine, which has a turbo and therefore no glowplugs. (this I'm less certain of)

Here's what my Gergory's manual says on the subject of HJ air preheat systems:
-Early HJ60: fixed delay system, incorporating glow plug relay and timer.
-Late HJ60 and HJ75: super glow, incorporating glow plug relay, current sensor, a resistor, coolant temperature sensor and timer.
-HJ61: element in intake manifold to heat incoming air, and an afterheating function to reduce white smoke and diesel knocking, by continuing to heat for a period after engine has started.

HJ47 seems to have a similar system to the early HJ60 ('early' is till late 1984 I believe), but not identical either. But that's all I know.

It'll take a while before we've sorted out all the preheat systems of all landcruisers.

 

[lostmarbles]

I'll try and help with the 60 section, which is the one I'm most familiar with.
The standard HJ61 always has a 12HT engine. (this I'm fairly certain of)
The BJ61 has the 13BT engine, which has a turbo and therefore no glowplugs. (this I'm less certain of)
Here's what my Gergory's manual says on the subject of HJ air preheat systems:
-Early HJ60: fixed delay system, incorporating glow plug relay and timer.
-Late HJ60 and HJ75: super glow, incorporating glow plug relay, current sensor, a resistor, coolant temperature sensor and timer.
-HJ61: element in intake manifold to heat incoming air, and an afterheating function to reduce white smoke and diesel knocking, by continuing to heat for a period after engine has started.
HJ47 seems to have a similar system to the early HJ60 ('early' is till late 1984 I believe), but not identical either. But that's all I know.
It'll take a while before we've sorted out all the preheat systems of all landcruisers.

Thanks again Vince. It is opinion such as yours that I value (and that will be a big help in finding the truth).

At this stage I'll use this post simply to list information from the catalogs that "may be in dispute" shall we say.

Here we go: (and I'll probably add to this list as I work through various catalogs and concentrate on the data in them that I don't understand)

• Karmot, TerrainTamer and GlowplugsAustralia all list an HJ61 as running a 2H engine (whereupon they specify 6V, 11V or 14V plugs depending on the individual catalog and/or year-of-manufacture)
• GlowplugsAustralia say a BJ42 runs a 2B engine
• Bosch, Karmot and GlowplugsAustralia say a BJ42 (3B) runs 10.5V plugs
• Bosch (old catalog) says a BJ61 runs a 3B and 10.5V plugs
• Karmot and GlowplugsAustralia say a pre-Oct 74 HJ45 (H) runs unusual 8V plugs (with 2 different dimension specs depending on how old the the HJ45 is)
• Karmot says a pre-July 1975 BJ40 (B) runs these unusual 8V plugs too

(Note: The last 2 are the most likely to be valid IMO

PS. I never thought of looking at non-Toyota manuals to see what they say. I must do that too. (I'm think I'm digging myself deeper and deeper!)



Edit next day (and just one of the oodles and oodles of edits I've done in this thread LOL): Writing those words "deeper and deeper" last night made me realise that I've temporarily "lost the plot" and am "getting bogged down in trivia". To hell with going cross-eyed looking at further catalogs and adding onto that "may be in dispute list". ENOUGH! We've proven the catalogs to be full of errors. And why should I really care about correctly placing all models within post #27? So I've gone back to almost all my previous posts just now with hopefully-FINAL tweaking and aim to just leave this Selection Guide as it stands now AS A TRIAL and see what feedback it generates. The only way I can see my guide failing is if there is another pre-heat system within this grouping of indirect injection diesels that I'm presently unaware of. And I think that is highly unlikely.
So when I get more spare time I'll take the thread forward (hopefully) with my next posts providing details of "Toyota plug dimensions" and "Toyota wiring diagram examples".

PS. Generally-speaking I don't approve at all of people editing and re-editing their old posts but I claim "special circumstances" in this case.

 

[lostmarbles]

Toyota plug specifications for these diesels

All 6 plugs listed in post #1 should conform to Toyota Specifications.

I believe the dimensions should match this: (Slight variations in non-critical areas .. such as "overall length" ... are acceptable.)



Note: Early plugs had the busbar-nut-thread as M5 (instead of M4) and I believe this size reduction occurred in the early 80s.

Constructing this thread has been a lot harder than I expected.

I've just altered the plugs I had in post #1 for Fixed Delay pre-heat in 24 volt models. I had 19850-58010 there and just now I've replaced that with 19850-68020. Both are 23V plugs with the same dimension specifications. (The Toyota EPC lists either one depending on where you look. But if there is any hidden difference between them, then I think 68020 is more likely to be the correct plug.)

And I can't even give you the Bosch equivalent to 19850-68020 because look at this in their latest catalog:



I think that is their equivalent plug but look what they say! A 97mm reach into the pre-combustion chamber More sloppy work in constructing their catalog?
After discovering this I'm very tempted now to go back to post #1 and delete all Bosch plugs (and most other plug cross-references too because they all come largely from these error-ridden plug manufacturers/distributors catalogs and my confidence in them has plummetted further)! But I guess I'll leave them there for the time being anyway.



Please ignore the information below on "plug type" . My BJ40 runs HKT PT104 plugs that this catalog describes as "Quick Type". Yet how can plugs requiring 20 seconds of "pre-heat duration" be described by anyone as "quick"? And their current draw must be fairly constant to glow my Controller as well/smoothly as they do. So I now think these "type labels" are just "marketing hype" by a few manufacturers which often doesn't match their "production reality". - I actually tried to delete the following image but the ih8mud administrators (new policy) won't let me.

 

[lostmarbles]

Please ignore this info on "plug type". (I now consider it irrelevant but I can't delete it.)






Edit 21 April 2011 .... Just ignore this rubbish on "plug type".
When a manufacturer makes glow plugs and aims them at certain vehicles (by means of a parts-code and/or catalog) they are obliged to ensure that each and every one of those plugs is compatible with the pre-heat system of the vehicle it is marketed towards.
The average end-user should never need to concern themselves with checking "plug dimensions" or "plug types".

 

[bj40green]

Thanks Tom for all the work you put in to make this thread so valuable.
Having said that, a new item appears at the horizon.
How can I figure out what type (Standard, Quick, QGS or S.Q. Type) of plug I have bought. I can't find any info for my EIKO GT-208 8.5V plugs on the box they came in or on variuos web sites. It seems that there is no choice. What I mean is, is there a sub code for the plugs or is the "type" related to the model#?
Like: EIKO GT-208 is a Standard type glow plug and HKT PT146 is a QGS type because of the super glow system?
The reason I ask this is, I have read the posting above and I'm wondering why is my new controller (OEM Toyota 28850-46021) not glowing? Well that's not true, it will glow a tiny little bit after 25 seconds but that is only visible in the dark. I just checked it again. That makes me think I have the "Standard Type" plug.
Another possibility is that the 28850-46021 is designed for 6 cyl trucks and that there is a error in the EPC.

I like to hear your opinion.

Thanks,
Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

Thanks Tom for all the work you put in to make this thread so valuable.
Having said that, a new item appears at the horizon.
How can I figure out what type (Standard, Quick, QGS or S.Q. Type) of plug I have bought. I can't find any info for my EIKO GT-208 8.5V plugs on the box they came in or on variuos web sites. It seems that there is no choice. What I mean is, is there a sub code for the plugs or is the "type" related to the model#?
Like: EIKO GT-208 is a Standard type glow plug and HKT PT146 is a QGS type because of the super glow system?
The reason I ask this is, I have read the posting above and I'm wondering why is my new controller (OEM Toyota 28850-46021) not glowing? Well that's not true, it will glow a tiny little bit after 25 seconds but that is only visible in the dark. I just checked it again. That makes me think I have the "Standard Type" plug.
Another possibility is that the 28850-46021 is designed for 6 cyl trucks and that there is a error in the EPC.

I like to hear your opinion.

Thanks,
Rudi

Hi Rudi.

Firstly - Your glow controller is the same 12 volt controller that I run on my BJ40 with the same part number. So I believe it is the correct one and I very much doubt Toyota has manufactured it differently/wrong. (But of course we should never completely rule out any possibility.)


Secondly - Doing research like this has a big payback for me in that I gain knowledge personally. (To put this another way - "I've just discovered more deficiencies in advice I've previously given on this Forum".) And I'm really still working through what these knowledge-discoveries mean for future advice I'm likely to give. (Putting this in yet another way ---- "I'm struggling for an answer just now". )

Thirdly - I have a suspicion that very few plug manufacturers/distributors understand the old "Glow Controller pre-heat system" like we do. You and I both know the performance of the Controller (how bright it glows) is TOTALLY dependant on the resistance of the plugs. But they (those demons ) are very likely to have secretly superseded their old "quick versions" with some other version that they think performs better but which stops our controllers from glowing properly. So on that basis, you might say .... "We're screwed". (Plug manufacturers don't usually tell us their plug types, and when they do, those "types" appear to be "rubbish" anyway. They mainly just give us a part number with dubious cross-referencing to either our vehicles, our OEM plugs, or both.)

So my opinion is that you may just have to continue buying plugs until you find a set that operates your controller properly. (Perhaps "old stock" may be what you're looking for. And if it is any help, I can say the HKT PT104 plugs I bought in 2008 work fine for me.)

I wonder if Toyota-sourced plugs would be worth a try? (But frankly, I think the only definite result of this action-path is paying more ...... because I suspect their glow plug sources would be similarly affected and 99.9% of their present parts-department staff throughout the world would know nothing about glow controllers.)

Joe Egolf in the USA has never got his controller glowing properly (since buying his BJ42) and take a look at this example from Pete in Japan:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/436177-glow-plug-ohms-mystery-plugs.html

So you're not alone by any means!

PS So the photo you provided of your glow controller glowing brightly (in post #5 here) was taken before you changed your controller, before you changed your plugs, or before both of these events?

Edit: You actually mis-typed the glow controller part number. It is 28550-46021.

 

[bj40green]

PS So the photo you provided of your glow controller glowing brightly (in post #5 here) was taken before you changed your controller, before you changed your plugs, or before both of these events?

Edit: You actually mis-typed the glow controller part number. It is 28550-46021.

The photo posted was of the after market (sold me as OEM) controller which lit up as a cigarette lighter after 6 seconds of glowing and started burning the paint of the dash after 10 seconds. You're right I made a typo in the controller number.

Funny that you referred to https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-...ery-plugs.html I just found that one (Google) on my hunt for glow controllers manufacturers looking for their specs.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

The photo posted was of the after market (sold me as OEM) controller which lit up as a cigarette lighter after 6 seconds of glowing and started burning the paint of the dash after 10 seconds. You're right I made a typo in the controller number.

Funny that you referred to https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-...ery-plugs.html I just found that one (Google) on my hunt for glow controllers manufacturers looking for their specs.

Rudi

Ah... That explains the good glow photo Rudi. (At least you now have a different controller with which to achieve "perfect match status" with these new plugs that appear to have infiltrated the market. )

I suspect we may be onto a key reason why Toyota dumped "glow controller pre-heat". - Perhaps it's because the match of controller-to-plugs is so crucial and they realised they wouldn't be easily able to sustain that compatability for future owners?

In my opinion, Glow Controller pre-heat (when you have that "match") is a tremendous bullet-proof system and it has such a "coolness-factor" too.

The only negative aspects that I'm aware of (apart from this matching-problem that has only just surfaced) are:

• pre-heating takes longer (compared to Super Glow anyway), and
• the possibility of "cascade plug failure"

To explain "Cascade Failure" (for the benefit of those who haven't heard of it): - With Glow Controller pre-heat, if one plug fails (ie. becomes open-circuited), the overall pre-heat current falls. This reduced overall current flowing through the controller then automatically reduces the "opposition to current flow" (technically called "back e.m.f.") it generates. And this in turn allows more current through the remaining individual working plugs. Meanwhile, the glow controller glows poorly (if at all) due to the drop in current through it. So the driver leaves the pre-heating on for longer (trying to achieve the previous brightness in the viewing hole). So now we have "excessive individual plug currents" coupled with "longer pre-heat duration" and this combination soon causes a second plug to become "toast". And when that happens the remaining plugs simply "blow their brains out almost instantaneously in sympathy with the deaths of their cousins".

But to get "Cascade Failure" in perspective, I must say I never expect it to happen to me.

My confidence is based on never having had any glow plug failure in 30 years of ownership (and my glow controller is still original too).



PS. Somewhere in this thread it has to be said - so I'll say this now:

When replacing glow plugs, always replace them as a matched set regardless of your engine's pre-heat method.

That is, ensure they are all of the same brand, of the same specifications, and ideally from the same batch too.

PPS. When batch numbers are ommitted by manufacturers, at least ensure each individual plug (and its packaging) looks identical.

Failure to follow this advice may result in "smokey starts" and "lumpy cold idling" ..... if not worse.


PPPS. And I should explain that "controller-to-plug mismatch" is likely to result in "controller failure" if it glows too readily/brightly. Mine takes about 15 seconds to reach the level of brightness shown in Rudi's picture in post #5. After 20 seconds it has reached "bright orange" and it never gets much brighter than that.
For the first start of the day I generally leave my pre-heat on for 25 seconds. Here's a pic to show you the brightness level:

 

[lostmarbles]

Moving on to wiring diagrams, "Glow Controller preheat" is rather simple so I'll just show an image of the wiring on my 12 volt 1979 BJ40:

 

[lostmarbles]

And here is an example of Fixed Delay pre-heat for the 60-series and 70-series: (This is even simpler still.)



And in this next pic I've adapted the above diagram to show a momentary switch being used for "Wilson Switch pre-heat".

 

[lostmarbles]

And lastly I have 3 examples of Super Glow pre-heat wiring diagrams.

Super Glow pre-heat is considerably more complicated as you can see here.

Firstly, the 40-series version (such as the BJ42 and HJ47):

Note: The "Sensing Resistor" shown above is referred to as a "Glow Plug Current Sensor" (see post #41) in some other diagrams. And it's purpose/effect is rather a puzzle to me at the moment. I suspect it doesn't drop the voltage to the busbar appreciably but is there instead (judging from the second name) just to provide current-feedback to the timer (which should really be called a "controller" but I can't do that without causing confusion with the other oldest method of pre-heat).

And here are two other diagrams for the series that don't show a "sensing resistor" at all:




The last two diagrams make sense to me ... but the first one doesn't because of my lack of understanding of purpose of the "sensing resistor?