As a career pricing person, I couldn't agree more. they could have phased this in over several years - so dumb.
URE pricing
- Thread starter erymer
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As a career pricing person, I couldn't agree more. they could have phased this in over several years - so dumb.
Taxes are a necessity, and some gov't involvement is too, everyone knows this. I'm also glad UNF exists the way it does. I'm a huge fan of the Parks and ferries as well, but all of that is done in the name of tourism dollars. The state isn't doing it to be nice, they for sure won't run a ferry to an uninhabited island.
It's just a kick in the nuts to hear any talk of a tax increase when it takes 1 second for any educated person to point out wasted tax dollars.
It is telling that the fee increases are on the campsites, as that is controlled by the parks service. If they really wanted the $$ strictly for UNF, they would increase the OHV passes cost, as that goes into the local cash registers, and could easily be counted at the end of the day.
I'd GLADLY pay 2-3 dollars more for a day pass, if the cost increase was used to make the experience better and the fee use was transparent. Making the passes has to cost something, just add that to the cost of each permit, rounded up to the next dollar.
Wonder how many trail passes are sold each year?
It's just a kick in the nuts to hear any talk of a tax increase when it takes 1 second for any educated person to point out wasted tax dollars.
It is telling that the fee increases are on the campsites, as that is controlled by the parks service. If they really wanted the $$ strictly for UNF, they would increase the OHV passes cost, as that goes into the local cash registers, and could easily be counted at the end of the day.
I'd GLADLY pay 2-3 dollars more for a day pass, if the cost increase was used to make the experience better and the fee use was transparent. Making the passes has to cost something, just add that to the cost of each permit, rounded up to the next dollar.
Wonder how many trail passes are sold each year?
Let me add to my awful post above about socialism - - every time I see a "free use of a T-shirt and towel at Carmichael Gym" or a "$15 Cedar Island to Ocracoke Ferry ride" . .I think - - someday the s*** is going to hit the fan in NC and all these services are going to go away - someone is going to say BS to these heavily subsidized activities. I hope not, but it makes me nervous.
By saying pull your head out of your ass, I am suggesting that you acknowledge reality. Government has problems and will never please everyone. It's not going to operate the way you want and there are many pressures, incl slashed budgets...
What is your viable alternative? Instead of the rote, tired anti-gubmint ranting, what viable proposal(s) do you have? Anything?
The federal government could just close down these areas, then what? You could rant a bunch more on the internet, but we'd all be screwed and have no place to enjoy this form of recreation.
The federal government could sell off the land, I'm sure the developers who buy it would love having us drive and s*** all over it and their lawyers wouldn't care.
So our choice is: fees, permits, some mild restrictions vs no access.
BTW, the OBX permits have: 1) produced new ramps (#32 is nice, if you haven't been) 2) helped educate people by virtue of those videos/trainings 3) stepped up enforcement 4) kept the beaches open. Your selective memory seems devoid of any recollection of the compromise that was made - permits, training, funds go to OBX projects, or close beach access - after the EIS.
Yea, the gov't is inept, and I probably won't stop bitching about it (due to my life being directly affected every single day) 1/3 of the pay that I got while typing this was paid to the government.
I proposed a new idea....raise the rates of the OHV passes....that money would not have the opportunity to pass through the feds hands as easily, it's easy to keep track of the # of permits sold (so we would know exactly how much money the new rates would bring in on a daily basis) and then the money could be spent transparently on improving UNF, you know, if that was really what this is all about.
Sure the feds could sell it, they could sell all the Parks land, and it may one day come to that, but hopefully the voting public can slow that down. If it comes with a hefty tax decrease, can't complain too much.
As far as the OBX goes, the Feds decided one day to threaten to close the beaches, so the locals had to react and play on the Feds terms. The locals and beachgoers' backs were against the wall from day one. The beaches were open, and had been for years, before and after the Feds got involved. Someone we elected saw a way to make some money, so they pushed the earmarked beach money to some other cause and 'oh man, there isn't enough money to keep the beaches open' argument came about. Those buildings and new hires were not cheap. That alone would have paid for stepped up enforcement. People that don't give a crap about keeping public lands clean still don't care, seen it first hand. A video isn't going to change that. Yea, the ramps are open, but they were open and maintained 10 years ago too.
Bottom line, the Feds just found a way to increase the size of gov't, and with that comes more cost and complexity, (and they do it with minuscule pieces at a time so we all get used to it) and very rarely is that a good thing.
I proposed a new idea....raise the rates of the OHV passes....that money would not have the opportunity to pass through the feds hands as easily, it's easy to keep track of the # of permits sold (so we would know exactly how much money the new rates would bring in on a daily basis) and then the money could be spent transparently on improving UNF, you know, if that was really what this is all about.
Sure the feds could sell it, they could sell all the Parks land, and it may one day come to that, but hopefully the voting public can slow that down. If it comes with a hefty tax decrease, can't complain too much.
As far as the OBX goes, the Feds decided one day to threaten to close the beaches, so the locals had to react and play on the Feds terms. The locals and beachgoers' backs were against the wall from day one. The beaches were open, and had been for years, before and after the Feds got involved. Someone we elected saw a way to make some money, so they pushed the earmarked beach money to some other cause and 'oh man, there isn't enough money to keep the beaches open' argument came about. Those buildings and new hires were not cheap. That alone would have paid for stepped up enforcement. People that don't give a crap about keeping public lands clean still don't care, seen it first hand. A video isn't going to change that. Yea, the ramps are open, but they were open and maintained 10 years ago too.
Bottom line, the Feds just found a way to increase the size of gov't, and with that comes more cost and complexity, (and they do it with minuscule pieces at a time so we all get used to it) and very rarely is that a good thing.
Some good points being made, but let's remember that this is a proposal by a governing body that is welcoming comments on the matter until 9/25/2017. See this...
Camp sites are probably being discussed as the majority of the revenue-generating price increases, instead of trail passes, because they already exist and are enforceable. Don't wanna pay to camp at a site? Easy enough to have you hauled away for squatting, trespassing, larceny, etc. Don't wanna pay for a trail pass? Well, now they have to find you and prove that you didn't just "lose" the pass, at least with the current pass system.
Let's also remember (going on my fuzzy memory here - please correct me if I'm wrong on this) that the US Gov't does not own the land of UNF. It is owned by Native Americans who allow (lease?) the Gov't to operate the facility that it is. It's THEIR land that they can and will take back when they tire of people desecrating a place that surely holds sacred value to them. And if Gov't just says "We can't afford to operate this anymore", guess what...it's likely closing down for good the second the Indians get back the figurative keys to the door.
My main point being, after wasting those 10 minutes to type all this, reach out and make your voices heard on this matter. See what they have to say.
Let's figure out how to comment to them and see what kind of replies we get.
Camp sites are probably being discussed as the majority of the revenue-generating price increases, instead of trail passes, because they already exist and are enforceable. Don't wanna pay to camp at a site? Easy enough to have you hauled away for squatting, trespassing, larceny, etc. Don't wanna pay for a trail pass? Well, now they have to find you and prove that you didn't just "lose" the pass, at least with the current pass system.
Let's also remember (going on my fuzzy memory here - please correct me if I'm wrong on this) that the US Gov't does not own the land of UNF. It is owned by Native Americans who allow (lease?) the Gov't to operate the facility that it is. It's THEIR land that they can and will take back when they tire of people desecrating a place that surely holds sacred value to them. And if Gov't just says "We can't afford to operate this anymore", guess what...it's likely closing down for good the second the Indians get back the figurative keys to the door.
Then you can watch all that new money turn into personnel, vehicles, buildings, and more in response to the scofflaws who won't pay a price increase "for public land, dammit". The forest is already full of OHV users with no permits riding their unregistered vehicles and quads on the service roads.
My main point being, after wasting those 10 minutes to type all this, reach out and make your voices heard on this matter. See what they have to say.
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that's correct to my knowledge as well. My understanding from the large work weekend and a conversation with Darin. Unf leases the use of the land from the NA's. maybe that's part of the rate hike, who knows.
And I just wanna say that I truly don't mind a rate hike. I'd be curious to know how long the pricing has been at its current rate. I can't say I remember the trail passes ever being more that the $5/$30 or group camp ever not being $40 a day. I just didn't care for the proposed doubling. With that said, I agree that we need to channel our passion and share our opinions with the powers that be on this.
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Uwharrie OHV Family posted this yesterday on Facebook.
Interesting that the Native Americans lease the land to the gov. It was purchased by the Feds in 1931 . I live pretty close and I've never heard that . Not saying its not true but just very interesting .
I've not heard that it's a lease, but we have been told that the USFS manage the Uwharrie forest for the predominant native american group in the area.
EDIT: Nevermind, quick google told me that this forest was in fact purchased by the feds in 1931. I wonder now what the involvement of the native american group actually is.
National Forests in North Carolina - About the Forest
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsm8_050078.pdf
That's why I said to correct me if I'm wrong about my fuzzy memory! Thanks, Steve. Looks like I at least got some research started into the truth. I'll look into those posts and links above when I get some down time.
I'm glad that at least someone (Johnny) remembers hearing the same thing I did about the land ownership/use/mgmt. I wonder if we were being hoodwinked for some purpose. Eh, whatever.
It could be that there are just Native American consultants for the USFS due to the archaeological sites in the region.
IIRC it was @krzyabncanuck who found out about the NA involvement in Uwharrie, maybe 5 years ago.
IIRC it was @krzyabncanuck who found out about the NA involvement in Uwharrie, maybe 5 years ago.
You know I see a bunch of complaining on here.
You have a voice. Use it where it will count and that's not on here. Do your part and tell "US " ( yes I am one of them people ) what we should be doing. We welcome your thoughts. They really do. We hate holding meetings where no one comes out. I know this for a fact both here and in Uwharrie. So do us a favor and put in your 2 cents. But just do not come there to complain. Come with a better plan. We want that from you folks. You really think we want to raise prices ? We do not but if it does not pay for itself what are we to do. Is there a bunch of lazy folks in here ? Damn straight there is just like anywhere I have worked in 3.5 decades.
I still remember going to planning meetings years ago there. Who showed up ? The same folks. So we came up with a plan and you have to deal with it. Sound familiar ? Does to me.....
So. Go to the meeting, open your mouth with a better plan or idea and make it sound great.
Or just be a keyboard whiner and accept what you get.
PS. Once you get in here you see how much money we really do not get. I use my own tools to get s*** done.
You have a voice. Use it where it will count and that's not on here. Do your part and tell "US " ( yes I am one of them people ) what we should be doing. We welcome your thoughts. They really do. We hate holding meetings where no one comes out. I know this for a fact both here and in Uwharrie. So do us a favor and put in your 2 cents. But just do not come there to complain. Come with a better plan. We want that from you folks. You really think we want to raise prices ? We do not but if it does not pay for itself what are we to do. Is there a bunch of lazy folks in here ? Damn straight there is just like anywhere I have worked in 3.5 decades.
I still remember going to planning meetings years ago there. Who showed up ? The same folks. So we came up with a plan and you have to deal with it. Sound familiar ? Does to me.....
So. Go to the meeting, open your mouth with a better plan or idea and make it sound great.
Or just be a keyboard whiner and accept what you get.
PS. Once you get in here you see how much money we really do not get. I use my own tools to get s*** done.
Uwharrie forest is managed together with the other three North Carolina National Forests (Croatan, Nantahala, and Pisgah) from common headquarters in Asheville, North Carolina.
Supervisor's Office
160 Zillicoa St. Suite A
Asheville, NC 28801
828-257-4200
providing ideas and communications about the issues and what might be done to correct them are positive steps we can provide to help improve the quality and value we receive from the forest service. Volunteer hours are like coupons, the more hours we volunteer the more funds the park get allocated. the more funds they have the less fees they have to charge. just like anything and everyone, they will have ideas to make improvements, they will listen to the public comments and and also try to incorporate their suggestions into the forest system as well. But, all these ideas and visions consume resources to make happen. We have to live within our means the more we do the more it costs. money and time are consumables, as are the lands. I attend the meetings and help provide suggestions, volunteer as much as i can. I try to pass the information along to keep everyone updated. But, i hardly see any of you at the meetings, or on the 3rd Saturday of the month, how many of you have actually written a letter (not typed it, aka ctrl-C , ctrl-v) but taken the time to write to the forest service telling the what a wonderful time you and your family had at Uwharrie on the last outing, how you enjoyed the opportunities that were provided and maybe even offer a suggestion as to what might have made the trip better. they will read the letter, they will listen, if enough people act they will respond.
I'm not trying to call any one out here but, if you want to make change, then make it happen through positive reinforcement.
public is invited to provide input to proposed fees changes for 46 days beginning on August 11, 2017 and ending on September 25, 2017. Be that "PUBLIC" and use this opportunity to make a positive impact.
Supervisor's Office
160 Zillicoa St. Suite A
Asheville, NC 28801
828-257-4200
providing ideas and communications about the issues and what might be done to correct them are positive steps we can provide to help improve the quality and value we receive from the forest service. Volunteer hours are like coupons, the more hours we volunteer the more funds the park get allocated. the more funds they have the less fees they have to charge. just like anything and everyone, they will have ideas to make improvements, they will listen to the public comments and and also try to incorporate their suggestions into the forest system as well. But, all these ideas and visions consume resources to make happen. We have to live within our means the more we do the more it costs. money and time are consumables, as are the lands. I attend the meetings and help provide suggestions, volunteer as much as i can. I try to pass the information along to keep everyone updated. But, i hardly see any of you at the meetings, or on the 3rd Saturday of the month, how many of you have actually written a letter (not typed it, aka ctrl-C , ctrl-v) but taken the time to write to the forest service telling the what a wonderful time you and your family had at Uwharrie on the last outing, how you enjoyed the opportunities that were provided and maybe even offer a suggestion as to what might have made the trip better. they will read the letter, they will listen, if enough people act they will respond.
I'm not trying to call any one out here but, if you want to make change, then make it happen through positive reinforcement.
public is invited to provide input to proposed fees changes for 46 days beginning on August 11, 2017 and ending on September 25, 2017. Be that "PUBLIC" and use this opportunity to make a positive impact.
Can not like this enough. Thanks Eric.
See you in a couple months again at a workday.....