Under 8 MPG

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Definitely lean on that shop to get this right.

I have had similar adventures with this engine and it can be tricky to get it right. I have come to the opinion, I can't prove it, but from my experience this ECU is quite 90s level simple. It needs all the sensors to be pretty much spot on and can handle say one of them drifting rich / lean within limits and will correct via the O2 sensors. If too many sensors drift or are offset it only corrects so much (10-20%) and that's it. Thereafter the engine runs too rich or too lean. Too lean will cause spark knock which will be sensed by the knock sensors and cause timing retardation which will cause poor drivability, power, stalling... etc... I think the stalling is mostly the injector duration getting so small the spray pattern falls apart and so you get the stalling at idle with the idle control valve trying to manage it but unable to do so since it wasn't calibrated to manage poor combustion at idle. I might have mentioned many posts back, but my truck presently only runs well on 91 octane. 87 and it runs like a turd. I know my engine temp sensor is reading on the warm side and the AFM is 2 clicks to the lean so there you go. I just need to fix one of those to make the problem come/go to confirm my hypothesis.

On the flip side, too rich makes the engine run too cool which makes it more rich and it goes into a downward spiral that direction.

So, if you get time, can you get data from the Torque 2 app? Things like live O2 voltages, Vf1 voltages, AFM reading, engine temp would be good starters. We can cross check the shop and see if the collective wisdom of mud aligns.

Frank
 
Definitely lean on that shop to get this right.

I have had similar adventures with this engine and it can be tricky to get it right. I have come to the opinion, I can't prove it, but from my experience this ECU is quite 90s level simple. It needs all the sensors to be pretty much spot on and can handle say one of them drifting rich / lean within limits and will correct via the O2 sensors. If too many sensors drift or are offset it only corrects so much (10-20%) and that's it. Thereafter the engine runs too rich or too lean. Too lean will cause spark knock which will be sensed by the knock sensors and cause timing retardation which will cause poor drivability, power, stalling... etc... I think the stalling is mostly the injector duration getting so small the spray pattern falls apart and so you get the stalling at idle with the idle control valve trying to manage it but unable to do so since it wasn't calibrated to manage poor combustion at idle. I might have mentioned many posts back, but my truck presently only runs well on 91 octane. 87 and it runs like a turd. I know my engine temp sensor is reading on the warm side and the AFM is 2 clicks to the lean so there you go. I just need to fix one of those to make the problem come/go to confirm my hypothesis.

On the flip side, too rich makes the engine run too cool which makes it more rich and it goes into a downward spiral that direction.

So, if you get time, can you get data from the Torque 2 app? Things like live O2 voltages, Vf1 voltages, AFM reading, engine temp would be good starters. We can cross check the shop and see if the collective wisdom of mud aligns.

Frank
Thanks for that info Frank.

I am running 91 octane & have been for several years after my turbo install.

I don’t have the torque app, but do have some numbers via the ScanGauge II and JRP 14in1 gauge.
 
That will work as far as apps. I get in the habit of calling it a torque app but any work.

Frank
 
Definitely lean on that shop to get this right.

I have had similar adventures with this engine and it can be tricky to get it right. I have come to the opinion, I can't prove it, but from my experience this ECU is quite 90s level simple. It needs all the sensors to be pretty much spot on and can handle say one of them drifting rich / lean within limits and will correct via the O2 sensors. If too many sensors drift or are offset it only corrects so much (10-20%) and that's it. Thereafter the engine runs too rich or too lean. Too lean will cause spark knock which will be sensed by the knock sensors and cause timing retardation which will cause poor drivability, power, stalling... etc... I think the stalling is mostly the injector duration getting so small the spray pattern falls apart and so you get the stalling at idle with the idle control valve trying to manage it but unable to do so since it wasn't calibrated to manage poor combustion at idle. I might have mentioned many posts back, but my truck presently only runs well on 91 octane. 87 and it runs like a turd. I know my engine temp sensor is reading on the warm side and the AFM is 2 clicks to the lean so there you go. I just need to fix one of those to make the problem come/go to confirm my hypothesis.

On the flip side, too rich makes the engine run too cool which makes it more rich and it goes into a downward spiral that direction.

So, if you get time, can you get data from the Torque 2 app? Things like live O2 voltages, Vf1 voltages, AFM reading, engine temp would be good starters. We can cross check the shop and see if the collective wisdom of mud aligns.

Frank
Have you tried running Chevron 87, my 1fz definitely runs smoother on the primo priced Chevron as did all my other gas cars, although someone will chime in and say its all mental and every gas station has the same gas (complete BS)
 
I haven't tried that yet. I have a zillion things needing my attention so I have been neglecting this particular issue for a while. I could probably fix it just going back two clicks to stock on the AFM. I had another issue where the O2 sensors would not stay warm especially if it was wet out so would slow their update rate and then cause lots of idle related stumbling. I had a shop relocate them closer to the engine which cured that. I think the AFM was a patch for that issue that is no longer needed.

Frank
 
Have you tried running Chevron 87, my 1fz definitely runs smoother on the primo priced Chevron as did all my other gas cars, although someone will chime in and say its all mental and every gas station has the same gas (complete BS)
Somewhat true in my experience. But not in the gasoline sense.

There are only so many refineries. Especially true in California with our “special formula”.

It all comes from those refineries, but each brand adds their “additives and detergents” that are different to each brand.

I usually use Costco fuel as it’s close by & cheaper than other local stations.

91 exclusively because turbo.
 
Quick question, did this issue show up with the turbo or was the truck Ok for while with the turbo and then this issue showed up?

Frank
 
Turbo was installed in 2019. Many years ago.

I was the very first turbo kit Wits End produced to market.

Instructions, at the time, were still being completed & there were a few parts that were incorrect in the kit, but it was quickly rectified.

I drove it a long time without issue.

Photo attached was Joey’s. It was posted to his social media pages announcing the first sale.

My rig was also the test vehicle to determine stock awhp numbers for his kit to be compared to. 120 hp vs 214 turbo hp.

IMG_0200.webp


IMG_0201.webp
 
Nice! If you have the latest Vf1 and 2 voltage values that will let us see what the ECU is trying to do. Did the issues show up suddenly or did the truck degrade over time?


Frank
 
I can’t provide those numbers, it’s already back at the shop for them to look into.

It did seem to degrade over time. I originally took it to the shop to replace the O2 sensors as those were the codes popping up.

It took me a while to get it back into the shop due to my Subaru turbo build was going on at the same time.

I just dealt with the poor milage performance & hesitation that only seemed to occur when cold, was only occurring when cold cold & under 100-120 degree operating temps.

After replacement of O2 sensors, MAF wiring be fixed, head temp sensor being replaced, it still was hesitating, stalling ever more, throwing same & even more (P0500 code) codes, it has seemed to get worse & more temperamental.

I’m really interested to see what the shop further finds regarding these issues.
 
As a point of reference, I'm only getting 9.5-10 mpg running 92 octane on my turbo'd 80. EGR deleted, almost everything in the engine bay has been replaced w/ new OEM over the last few years. I'm also on 35" tires with winched front bumper and swingouts on the rear bumper.
 
As a point of reference, I'm only getting 9.5-10 mpg running 92 octane on my turbo'd 80. EGR deleted, almost everything in the engine bay has been replaced w/ new OEM over the last few years. I'm also on 35" tires with winched front bumper and swingouts on the rear bumper.
My rig is very similar to yours, in every aspect of a build out.

The poor milage is only one of many symptoms I’m currently experiencing though.

The rig is practically un-drivable & totally unreliable after it’s now 3rd time in the shop.
 
I can’t provide those numbers, it’s already back at the shop for them to look into.

It did seem to degrade over time. I originally took it to the shop to replace the O2 sensors as those were the codes popping up.

It took me a while to get it back into the shop due to my Subaru turbo build was going on at the same time.

I just dealt with the poor milage performance & hesitation that only seemed to occur when cold, was only occurring when cold cold & under 100-120 degree operating temps.

After replacement of O2 sensors, MAF wiring be fixed, head temp sensor being replaced, it still was hesitating, stalling ever more, throwing same & even more (P0500 code) codes, it has seemed to get worse & more temperamental.

I’m really interested to see what the shop further finds regarding these issues.
Very good info.

The P0500 correlation is interesting. That's a wheel speed sensor code which should have nothing to do with engine control. I believe the truck uses the tailshaft speed sensor for shifting so all it should do is throw traction / abs codes. If it's correlating with the other codes and engine issues, that suggests something systemic like a chaffing of the 5V supply signal or a sensor issue dragging down the 5V supply.

Controllers have a well filtered / regulated 5V supply for the sensors so the sensors read consistently. If something is say dragging that signal down, all sensors using that supply can be impacted. For example, the engine temp sensor might read too cold hot / cold, and impact base injection timing. The shop should be able to read each wheel speed, fix the offending sensor, and go from there. If it's a chaffing issue they it could show up as a different speed sensors failing at different conditions or changing of a sensor with no improvement. That would be harder to find because it would probably be in the harness somewhere. Or, it could be a connector getting cruddy. Tapping into the 5V supply at a convenient point and going for a drive can also allow one to see if the voltage is stable. Even a bad ECU could cause this if that 5V supply is slowly failing. This is why these problems can be tricky to solve.

Frank
 
Shop called & said my rig is running like a top again.

The last culprits were a dirty MAF sensor & a collapsed vacuum hose going to the fuel pressure regulator.

They did mention my exhaust temp sensor
(Just Race Parts 14in1 aftermarket gauge sensor) is bad. I just ordered a new sensor from Australia. $33 sensor, $20 to ship it. That won’t affect drivability, MPG, or anything though.

I won’t pick it up til Friday. Then I’ll start logging milage & report MPG data at that point.

More data to come. Hopefully positive data.
 
I’ve been slow to begin data compiling MPG.

With the P0500 code & intermittent functioning speedo, I had to order some parts.

Shout out to Beno for quickly & accurately confirming part numbers for me.

Ordered 3 sensors. Probably just need the one, but wanted parts on hand for ease & completion in one attempt.

‘96 Lexus LX450 for reference:

83181-20040 one sensor.

89411-50010 two sensors.

Additionally purchased the Lutz Auto speedometer calibrator LTZ-80SCD which plugs in-line with the t-case sensor to fine tune for larger tires.

Once I get this all replaced & dialed in, I’ll be able to get good data.

From the community:
Previous data was logging milage with the OEM sensor, not calibrated for larger tires.
To accurately compare apples to apples, who can assist with a formula to take OEM milage data & adjust for larger tires?
Currently running 35”’s, actual size diameter is 34.5”.

Thanks in advance fellas!

I’ll update previous data points for tire size adjustment & going forward we can compare correct data.

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IMG_0519.webp
 
The correction for larger tires is just the ratio of the stock tire diameter vs the new tire diameter. You are definitely going farther than the odo is recording if you have stock 4.10 gears and 35's. I believe the correction is around 11%-12%. If you did not correct for this, you were actually getting 8*1.12= 9MPG. That is still quite low, however, there is one contributor and that is the torque converter is not locking up nearly as often as it should be. You would then be turning fuel into hot transmission fluid instead of forward motion.

I say a contributor because you could have other issues but you really need to regear for these tires. or the torque converter is not going to lock nearly as often as it should and your MPG's will suffer accordingly. If you live where it is flat, 4.56's will bring you back into stock final drive ratios. If you live where there are hills, elevations, tow a trailer, or ever want to go to 37's, I suggest going with 4.88's.

If you go with 4.88's, you will need the speed correction component you bought. If you go with 4.56's you won't need it.

Frank
 
I do have the OEM gears still.

So the calibrator should assist me, correct?

Re-gear has always been in the plans, but $$$. Not going to happen within the next year.

I live in southern CA. Sea level, mostly flat, don’t intend to go with bigger tires, & no towing.

Can you explain the math involved regarding the tire size discrepancy?
 
I do have the OEM gears still.

So the calibrator should assist me, correct?

Re-gear has always been in the plans, but $$$. Not going to happen within the next year.

I live in southern CA. Sea level, mostly flat, don’t intend to go with bigger tires, & no towing.

Can you explain the math involved regarding the tire size discrepancy?
Google is your friend 😎
 
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