Turbo guru advice needed (1 Viewer)

[Mcreight911]

I know I could just have something built buy gturbo, but I like tinkering and curiosity has gotten the better of me .
I'm doing a hybrid td04L 13 or 15t for my 2.8l idi diesel . The standard turbo is a tf035hm 12t with a 4cm turbine housing . My question is, are there newer More efficient turbine designs that will fit or are the old td04 designs it. And what flow differences are there between a 6x6 compressor and a gtx style 11 blade. Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[gerg]

Been a long time since I mapped something that's small, but the 15t compressor is too big. I'm currently running a wrx td04l-13t-6cm turbo on my 3.4l 3b and will be putting an 11blade gtx wheel on it next week. Very responsive turbo in stock form. I'll post up the results for you. Might be able to scale the performance somewhat to give you an idea of what it might do on yours.

Ohh, the 11blade design is reported to spool sooner and be more effecient at lower boost pressure, but not as effecient as the 6+6 designs at higher boost levels. The gtx wheel also has extended tips.

 

[Mcreight911]

Cheers Gerg . I have a 4 and 5cm ar tdo4 housing to play with. Just wasnt sure what compressor to go with . I'll probably get both for testing. Aiming at 150hp+. Boost will be governed by drive pressure ratios . I currently have a modified gt2052v @26psi making just under 140hp with fuel to spare. I haven't looked at its compressor or turbine sizing as its one of Graeme's but my gut feeling is the turbine is too large as I have to limit vein movement to get decent boost and boost starts a bit late . The other down side is drive pressure ratios are less than ideal. I figure With all the td04 options why not try that as it will bolt on to the original manifold rather than running all the adapters I have .

 

[Mcreight911]

This is the td04l turbine I have . It seems to be a cross between a gen 1 and gen 2 . It has a far tighter radius in the centre of the blade than the standard turbo (tf035) . Any thought Gerg or Dougal ? I can find plenty old tech aero design turbines for the tdo4L but nothing like the new tech (gen3 ) (holset he221 or mixed flow ihi rhf style ) anyone know if they're available ? My local turbo shop gave me a Blank look when I asked. His suggestion was a gt25 garret . It was at that point I thanked him and hung up.

 

[gerg]

If your so bent on maximizing a single turbo, I'd strongly consider a twin scroll option. There are 8.5 cm versions available on Volvos. Comes witha td04L turbine. Well suited to your size. Yould have to swap the compressor and cover, but if your running high boost like that you should redo the internals anyway. You might get away with the 12t, who knows. Never seen a map on it though. course it requires a custom manifold.
Here is a link for an example of what I'm talking about. I don't recommend buying reproduction Mitsubishi turbos. I prefer to rebuild genuine MHI stuff.

Volvo S40 TD04L-12T-8.5 49377-06050 Turbo Turbocharger

 

[gerg]

I forgot to mention. If your looking to up your power, your going to need to reduce your drive pressure as you know. A Larger turbine might be easier to adapt as opposed to hunting a super effecient small turbine. The HL turbine mates with all the compressors I the td04 family.

So a whole other area to focus on is Intercooling. What have you got? There are lots of different ways to shove air into your engine.

 

[dare]

The HE211 (not HE221) turbine has similar dimensions to the TD04L and might have a more modern wheel. I think I remember Dougal saying on 4BTswaps the HE211 is part of the TD04 family. The 211 compressor map has a very similar surge line to the GT2052 but flows about 9lbs/min more and goes up to a pressure ratio of 3.5.

Surely the later model Foresters (TD04L-13t) would have quite a modern wheel.

 

[gerg]

Yeah the 13t is quite a good compressor. Very surge resistant. I don't think his issue is compressor. I think it's choking on the turbine and housing side. Compressor is the easy part.

 

[Mcreight911]

Trying to keep it simple so that rules out twin scroll and room is an issue for compounds although i may do it in the future if the single doesn't perform . I know I'm making compromises but keeping it in the td04 frame is the goal for now. I was worried the HL turbine was going to be to large (however I have no idea how to calc it out .) I have used a gt25 customised by Axt, it had a 43mm 52mm compressor, 52mm 42mm turbine and a .64 turbine housing . Was marketed by Axt as a fast spooling upgrade for 2.5-3l diesel . Boost threshold was appalling, single digit till after 2000rpm even at 17:1 made the same peak power as the tf035 12t 4 . Which is why I'm reluctant to try the wrx turbo . So that led me to think the smaller turbine housing td04 would be a good Match ( correct me if I'm wrong) . Gerg the tf035 12t with 4cm turbine housing made 98hp at 18:1 on 16psi with 1.6:1 drive pressure, peak boost from 1700rpm. I have a few tricks up my sleeve for the bearing side of things, so high boost reliability won't be a problem . Just flow of the turbine and turbine housing is my problem .
Thanks for the info Gerg n dare it all helps. It's for a Mitsubishi 4m40 if it makes a difference.intercooling is a 450x300x75 front mount

 

[gerg]

The wrx turbo is basically the exact same size turbine as the standard td04 with a 6cm housing. The td04l is a 41/47mmturbine, but more importantly the 13t is a 40.6/56mm compressor. With extended tips that goes to 58mm. It's inducer doesn't need to grab as much air as the Garrett (faster spool). So it's not flowing as much as the 52 Garrett, but much much larger exducer which give it great pressure ratios and faster spool. On my 3b it easily made 10lbs at 1500rpm. It is not a slow spooling turbo. And that was a standard 6+6 without the extended tips. Extended tips spool faster and widen the entire map. 11blades are a plus.

 

[Mcreight911]

Wrx turbos are cheap n easy to get. I'll have to measure it but I think my 5cm housing will work with both the td04L and tdo4 . Unless u think the 6cm will better suit my application . I have both 13t n 15t gtx style 11 blade extended tip compressors and covers to suit . Both with standard size inducer but 60mm exducer . Might just have to bite the bullet on the wrx turbo and trial it . Your 3b would flow a bit more than a 4m40 wouldn't it?

 

[gerg]

Yes it would, but it's a similarly designed engine so you could move the boost threshold up somewhat based on displacement. The 3B is roughly 1.25 your displacement. Based on that, all things equal, you should be able to do 10lbs by 1850 rpm. Now mine was wastegated to 16lbs, so it was already leaking the wastegate. A higher boost setting would keep it clamped tight longer. An inline boost controller helps do that as well in a different way. If your going to trial something I'd do the td04l-13T extended tip- 6cm hot side. The 15t is too big for you unless your willing to trade low end performance for a better top end.
The 13t roughly can do 26lbs boost up to 3500rpm and it hits the edge of the map. The extended tip will give you a better margin and the 11blade will also widen the map too. Calculating engine VE at that rpm is quite dodgy. The good thing is, the worse your VE gets, the better the compressor maps! Ha! Nice thing is too that it can do about 17lbs or so at 1500 rpm before it surges. The ET will help give a better margin too.

All in all it maps well for you with the exception of the extreme top end. I know from experience it was very responsive on my truck. If your running those pressure ratios you should be doing a dual feed 360 bearing with oversized thrust collars. Tungstendisulfide coatings can also get more life out of the collar. That is a lot to ask of a little turbo. If you were about 18000kms closer, I'd say let's build you a tight twin scroll manifold. Now that would spool fast and really drop your drive pressures.

 

[Mcreight911]

I'd love to try it if I had the know how to build the manifold . Yeah twin oil feed oversized thrust plus anchor it to the housing works well for hi boost . Plus balancing to the nth degree. You've convinced me to try the 13t first . I want double digit boost before 1500rpm . Needs to be responsive !

 

[gerg]

Now I didn't say it would do double digit boost before 1500rpm. I said it was surge resistant at that rpm. I know personally that it is very responsive. Your asking a fair bit, but it's a much better fit than that 43mm compressor you had. I don't throw advice out easily, but if your going to trial another, it's a very good candidate.
g

 

[Mcreight911]

Ok gotcha . And thanks for the advice, appreciate it.