Turbo- 3b or 13bt?

[rflood]

Saw someone posting about the 14 & 15B engines for Toyota's as a substitute for the 13B series. What is the big difference between the 3 of them (other than age) that might make them ( 14 or 15 ) a better candidate for a swap into a 60 series TLC? Wayne was mentioning the parts availability issue which is a valid one but what is the complexity like in going with a 14B-T or 15B-FT as a swap into a TLC 60 series from pre-1990.

 

[John Galt]

unless you are driving an auto then i will call you on not experiencing the sensitive throttle issue.

No, I'm driving a LC truck. Don't call, post the info about your sensitive throttle issues here.

 

[Eric Winkworth]

as the years pass parts are becoming scarce, while i was working on the old 3B engines different parts, mostly electrical, became obsolete.
if you are good at making something work then it might be worth your risk but for the average joe having to source an edic motor, an injector line, return line or other parts might be the difference between happy ownership and a regret.
if you are doing the swap yourself then the only thing you will lose is your time but if you are paying someone to do the swap and it sits when a part goes sideways then that can hurt.
you are in a bit better situation then most of us, you are at the heart of the Toyota empire. you could even go to the auction and pick up a truck for what some of us pay just for a part and shipping.

to be honest, it has been so long since i really needed to order parts for the B series that i can't remember what has been and issue and what hasn't.

that being said, in the next couple weeks i will be wrenching on a couple old 3B engines. if i run into any issues i will post up the parts here ... if you like.

I would love to hear what is a PITA to find!

 

[crushers]

hell, it could be you are used to riding a horse ... in which case you wouldn't understand.

but, just in case:
the sensitive throttle issue results from a gentle application of the throttle while off roading, going over a speed bump, pot hole, wash board and the bucking begins.
it is serious enough that some will not take their trucks off road on steep rough hills or rough trails. it is common with the 12HT as well. the older pre 1990 Toyota DI diesel engines seem to be affected worse.

some of the cures are heavy springs on the throttle cable, double springs, shoving your foot against the kick panel to keep it perfectly still, using the throttle up knob.

it is a very common complaint among the 12HT and 13BT manual tranny crowd.

MAYBE you have a very soft riding truck
or
you have the throttle cure already installed
or
your truck never leaves the pavement
or
your truck runs so rough you can't tell the difference

????

 

[peteinjp]

Yep- Post away. I'd love to know what is getting hard to get.


Pete

 

[roscoFJ73]

Saw someone posting about the 14 & 15B engines for Toyota's as a substitute for the 13B series. What is the big difference between the 3 of them (other than age) that might make them ( 14 or 15 ) a better candidate for a swap into a 60 series TLC? Wayne was mentioning the parts availability issue which is a valid one but what is the complexity like in going with a 14B-T or 15B-FT as a swap into a TLC 60 series from pre-1990.

I cant explain the differences any better than this Toyota B engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,except to add that the larger14B and 15B engines have reinforced blocks to handle the torque.

Although the peripherals that bolt onto the engine make them appear bigger,the basic block is the same size throughout the B range.
There is some evidence that these are still in production in the Hino range,but with a different alpha numeral code,so parts may not be problem if you use a later variant.
In any case B engines were being used up until the 2000s in many countries,mainly in the Dyna.

The 15B FTE is used to pull the Megacruiser,Toyota Coaster and the military spec 4WD Toyota Dyna around ,so it will have no trouble with a 60.

The complexity is not great and should be easier with a 60 having a slightly larger engine bay than a 40 or 70.
One of the jobs to get the 14B or 15B to mate to a 3B cruiser gearbox,is some grinding on the bell housing to get the the pressure plate to fit.
There may be other issues depending on whether you have a RHD or LHD,for example RHD BJ74 has a unique clutch master cyl which is tilted to clear the turbo on a 13BT
Best to do a search on the 70 and diesel forums.

 

[Captain Caveman]

hell, it could be you are used to riding a horse ... in which case you wouldn't understand.

but, just in case:
the sensitive throttle issue results from a gentle application of the throttle while off roading, going over a speed bump, pot hole, wash board and the bucking begins.
it is serious enough that some will not take their trucks off road on steep rough hills or rough trails. it is common with the 12HT as well. the older pre 1990 Toyota DI diesel engines seem to be affected worse.

some of the cures are heavy springs on the throttle cable, double springs, shoving your foot against the kick panel to keep it perfectly still, using the throttle up knob.

it is a very common complaint among the 12HT and 13BT manual tranny crowd.

MAYBE you have a very soft riding truck
or
you have the throttle cure already installed
or
your truck never leaves the pavement
or
your truck runs so rough you can't tell the difference

????

I used to have this same issue in a 94 civic, so it isn't 13bt specific... and you could also turn it around and say that it is just a responsive engine. I prefer to deal with responsiveness over sluggish response any day.

 

[peteinjp]

Mine is a RHD bj44. I want to know about this 70 series master. That would make things fit better with the engine in the stock location.

Pete

 

[peteinjp]

The engine guy happened to call today. He has a 3b with a 5 speed from a bj42= bolt right in with only changes to the rear drive shaft (as my truck is longer than the 42 however I can have the front.) Power steering, radiator, engine, tranny, transfer with 180,000km's and will take my 2b set in as a core. I already have all the power steering stuff so that stuff can be sold. All told and done I'd be looking at about a grand. i told him I was going to think about it and I'm still considering the advantages of the 13bt.

It is pretty tempting because the 40 series 5 speed fits just right. Its still running in the truck so i could give it a look to see how it is running. 180000km is kind of a lot and to be honest I haven't got the time to tear is down. It would be new seals and the easy stuff and then stuff it in the truck....



Hmmmmmm

Pete

 

[ForealBoreal]

what does your truck currently have?
180,000 is not very high for a diesel if its been maintained well.

 

[roscoFJ73]

180000klms on a 3B is nothing,even if its been abused somewhat.These little engines pull around 16 seater schools buses in oz for 500000-600000klms

At all cost ,watch it do a cold start,and I mean dead cold.Get there before opening time so they dont have time to run the engine for 10 seconds.
If a diesel is good it will start almost instantaneously with some glowing and then settle into a smooth idle straight away.
If it runs rough it maybe a glow issue or air leaking into the system which is easy to fix.
Or it has bad compression which will make lots of grey blue smoke.

 

[crushers]

a grand and a semi bolt in ...
killer deal.
add a turbo later and you are better off.

try and score the engine frame mounts, tranny frame mounts both side L brackets and everything attached to both the tranny and the engine.
your tranny mount is different than the newer, yours mounts to the bellhousing and the newer mounts to the tranny.
what i have done in the past is use the older bell housing between the engine and the H55 tranny. you won't be beating the crap out of it hanging off rocks so that system works excellent and saves a ton of messing with the newer design.
the length of wheel base has nothing to do with the shaft lengths, the front one will be too short, the rear will be too long. plan on getting both shafts, if i am wrong then you have a spare stub.
score the rad as well, if the 3B has PS then the top rad hose location flips to the other side.
the exhaust is different as well so score the first foot of the 3B exhaust system ... at least.

enjoy the swap, you will be happy with the H55 in your truck, that O/D ratio is one of he best Toyota has in their LC lineup and the tranny will shift with the 2 finger.

congrats.

 

[peteinjp]

Right now I have a 2b with 180,000km. Runs great except at startup- has an air leak somewhere but I'm not sure where.

The front shaft from the 42 will fit the 44 but the rear shaft will not so I'll have to make something there probably. But I'll get both shafts if the deal goes thru. Initially I have to come up with the lump sum so that is the hard part right now. I won't get the $$ back out of it until I complete the swap and provide them with my 2b as well as sell off my steering components. I just picked up a set of 70 axles with lockers, side panels with windows as well as a roof (both super rare due to the extra length of the medium wheel base) from the same guy. That is my the wallet is feeling a bit light. I wasn't expecting him to call with this set up.

My reason for wanting the turbo is not to have gobs of power- just to be able to get up in altitude and still climb a hill without over heating and blowing copious amounts of smoke. I want to be able to pulla small trailer up and get my fire wood every year. The 2b is adequate at sea level.......

Still kicking around the 13,14,15b idea. After getting the 3b I'll still need to source the turbo/mani/plumbing which would probably put me within reach of the 13bt price range. No pre-cups seems like one less thing to have to worry about later.

On the 3b what would be the recommended maintenance to do at this mileage before the swap in order to see another 200,000 or more trouble free kms?

Pete

 

[crushers]

Pete,
teh distance from the front axle to the tranny is the same for all the 4 speeds be it 40 42 43 44 45, the body and wheel base extension is in the frame.
the only time the front driveshaft changes length is when the 5 speed is installed, the t/case is moved 3" further back so the driveshaft front needs to be 3" longer.
i think you are confusing body length with drivetrain location.

check the water pump
clutch for sure, easy while the engine is out.
slave cyl
run some seafoam through it before you pull the donor engine to clean up the injectors.
flush the engine as per my idea in another thread just to get that a fresh start.
thermostate
belts
hoses
done.

unless something looks really obvious.

 

[peteinjp]

I'm on the same page there Wayne If I get the 5 speed and the front shaft with it I'm good to go but I'll need to do something for the rear for sure.

Pete

 

[peteinjp]

The only other thing I'm considering is actually it may be an easier swap to use the 5 speed from a 60 or 70 and shift the motor forward. Turbo fits without heating the master cylinder, driveshafts do not need any mods, and the PTO shafts also stay as they are. The price would also be cheaper as they are much more plentiful.

P

 

[crushers]

the H55 from the 70 and the 60 is the same, only the shift tower changes location.

 

[Dougal]

If you intend to install a turbo, then it makes no sense to install a 3B over a factory turbo engine.

 

[crushers]

actually, it does

he can install the engine and 5 speed for cheap, (re-read his point about limited funds)
then when he has more cash he can add a turbo and exhaust and still end up with more HP and better fuel mileage ...

 

[Dougal]

actually, it does

he can install the engine and 5 speed for cheap, (re-read his point about limited funds)
then when he has more cash he can add a turbo and exhaust and still end up with more HP and better fuel mileage ...

Not quite.

He can install a 3B now, not know how well it's been looked after, spend forever worrying about precombustion cups, spend more $$ on a turbo conversion than a 13BT/14BT price difference and still have an engine that uses more fuel and produces less power.

Do it once and do it right.