Trail gear spindle nut damage heads up on 80 (1 Viewer)

[Dubbinchris]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. What is everyone torquing the axle nut to when using this trail gear set up? I know opinions on torque numbers are already all over the map with the traditional inner and outer nut system with the outer but being torqued a fair amount and the inner nut being torqued quite lightly. I however haven’t seen any good numbers with this single but system. I’m running 35’s and was thinking maybe 20-35 ft/lbs with plenty of hub spinning to settle the bearing down. I’d love to get some other opinions.

 

[80t0ylc]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. What is everyone torquing the axle nut to when using this trail gear set up? I know opinions on torque numbers are already all over the map with the traditional inner and outer nut system with the outer but being torqued a fair amount and the inner nut being torqued quite lightly. I however haven’t seen any good numbers with this single but system. I’m running 35’s and was thinking maybe 20-35 ft/lbs with plenty of hub spinning to settle the bearing down. I’d love to get some other opinions.

The TG set up doesn't change the axle nut torque (43 ft.lbs.) IIRC. It's been several yrs since I set mine up, but you still want no play in the wheel bearings, and free spinning hubs. Slight tweaking to get the lock screws and plate installed might be necessary. It is mentioned in TG's instructions to use the wheel bearing preload that's called out in the FSM. Here is TG's instruction sheet:

 

[-Spike-]

The TG set up doesn't change the axle nut torque (43 ft.lbs.) IIRC. It's been several yrs since I set mine up, but you still want no play in the wheel bearings, and free spinning hubs. Slight tweaking to get the lock screws and plate installed might be necessary. It is mentioned in TG's instructions to use the wheel bearing preload that's called out in the FSM. Here is TG's instruction sheet:

For the record, the FSM torque for the inner nut is in inch-pounds, not ft.lbs. Many people, me included, torque the nut much higher than that, but knowing the correct factory procedure is an important baseline to start from when making any decisions like this.

 

[80t0ylc]

For the record, the FSM torque for the inner nut is in inch-pounds, not ft.lbs. Many people, me included, torque the nut much higher than that, but knowing the correct factory procedure is an important baseline to start from when making any decisions like this.

Please quote your source. My '94 FSM indicates to torque the adjusting nut to 59 N-M which converts to 43.5 ft. lbs. Most people just back off a bit until wheel spins freely with no play in wheel bearings, instead of the next step which says to loosen nut to "turned by hand" and checking with the proverbial spring tension gauge for the specified amount. Then last step (which is avoided by the TG set up), is to tighten locking nut to 64 N-M or 47 ft. lbs. I also seem to remember this being kicked around in previous threads. Yours is the 1st time that I've heard inch lbs!

 

[Dubbinchris]

Please quote your source. My '94 FSM indicates to torque the adjusting nut to 59 N-M which converts to 43.5 ft. lbs. Most people just I back off a bit until wheel spins freely with no play in wheel bearings, instead of the next step which says to loosen nut to "turned by hand" and checking with the proverbial spring tension gauge for the specified amount. Then last step (which is avoided by the TG set up), is to tighten locking nut to 64 N-M or 47 ft. lbs. I also seem to remember this being kicked around in previous threads. Yours is the 1st time that I've heard inch lbs!

This is exactly why I was asking. This torque spec doesn’t instill much confidence if there isn’t a locking nut with a much higher torque to back it up.

 

[Dubbinchris]

I’ve also seen many people say the inner nut should be 10 ft/lbs re-torqued a few times after spinnning the wheel and the outer nut should be 43-47 ft:lbs depending on who you ask. I’ve seen numbers all over the place with the double nut system, with most of them having very low inner nut torques as I said before.

 

[80t0ylc]

That cheatsheet says 43 ft lbs also. So does my FSM & front axle rebuild poster from @NLXTACY .
Edit: My bad! I just looked again. 4 ft lbs and 47 ft lbs for locking nut! Crazy! FSM is different!

 

[80t0ylc]

This is exactly why I was asking. This torque spec doesn’t instill much confidence if there isn’t a locking nut with a much higher torque to back it up.

From my FSM. This is what I've been lead to believe is right, but maybe the cheat sheet and rebuild poster's are correct.

The rest of the steps for preload:

 

[mudgudgeon]

From my FSM. This is what I've been lead to believe is right, but maybe the cheat sheet and rebuild poster's are correct.
View attachment 3358085

What does the next couple of steps say?

Pretty sure it says to back the but of and retorque to a much lower spec before installing locking tab and lock nut?

Lots of people have had repeated loose bearings following the FSM procedure.

I’m running 35’s and was thinking maybe 20-35 ft/lbs with plenty of hub spinning to settle the bearing down. I’d love to get some other opinions.

This is what I do. Have not had bearings end up loose like with the FSM method

 

[Dubbinchris]

That cheatsheet says 43 ft lbs also. So does my FSM & front axle rebuild poster from @NLXTACY .
Edit: My bad! I just looked again. 4 ft lbs and 47 ft lbs for locking nut! Crazy! FSM is different

That cheatsheet says 43 ft lbs also. So does my FSM & front axle rebuild poster from @NLXTACY .
Edit: My bad! I just looked again. 4 ft lbs and 47 ft lbs for locking nut! Crazy! FSM is different!

And exactly the reason for my initial post. With only one nut, I’m sure as hell not tightening it to 4 ft/lbs.

 

[Dubbinchris]

What does the next couple of steps say?

Pretty sure it says to back the but of and retorque to a much lower spec before installing locking tab and lock nut?

Lots of people have had repeated loose bearings following the FSM procedure.





This is what I do. Have not had bearings end up loose like with the FSM method

What torque did you land on? Are you using this trail gear single nut system?

 

[-Spike-]

Please quote your source. My '94 FSM indicates to torque the adjusting nut to 59 N-M which converts to 43.5 ft. lbs. Most people just back off a bit until wheel spins freely with no play in wheel bearings, instead of the next step which says to loosen nut to "turned by hand" and checking with the proverbial spring tension gauge for the specified amount. Then last step (which is avoided by the TG set up), is to tighten locking nut to 64 N-M or 47 ft. lbs. I also seem to remember this being kicked around in previous threads. Yours is the 1st time that I've heard inch lbs!

1996 Toyota FSM. The 1994 FSM (that I have) is misprinted; the instructions relating to the adjusting nut end with 'Loosen the nut until it can be turned by hand'- they omitted the final step which is to torque to 48 in/lbs. prior to measuring the resistance. This mistake has been pointed out in previous posts, although a person could be forgiven for not reading every post in this forum. Which is why I'm bringing it to everyone's attention that happens to read this thread.

1996 FSM: Note that the adjustment nut is supposed to be tightened to 43 ft/lbs several times, but the final torque on that nut is 48 in/lbs.

1994 FSM: (misprinted, missing final instruction for the adjustment nut)

 

[-Spike-]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. What is everyone torquing the axle nut to when using this trail gear set up? I know opinions on torque numbers are already all over the map with the traditional inner and outer nut system with the outer but being torqued a fair amount and the inner nut being torqued quite lightly. I however haven’t seen any good numbers with this single but system. I’m running 35’s and was thinking maybe 20-35 ft/lbs with plenty of hub spinning to settle the bearing down. I’d love to get some other opinions.

I'd highly recommend throwing the trail gear nuts in the recycle bin and getting yourself some OEM nuts, washers, and lockwashers. My apologies to anyone this might offend, but that system is garbage. I've seen it fail in multiple ways firsthand, as have several other people. If you hadn't noticed, this thread started because someone was having issues with this system.

 

[80t0ylc]

And exactly the reason for my initial post. With only one nut, I’m sure as hell not tightening it to 4 ft/lbs.

Yeah, after @mudgudgeon 's post and some common sense, I think, even with the TG setup, I would torque the axle nut to the 43 lbs that the FSM specifies, spinning the hub back and forth. Then loosen nut to hand tight. Then re-torque to the 4 ft lbs and check that there is no play in wheel bearings and it spins freely. When you've accomplished both of those parameters, then install the locking ring if TG, or the locking nut and OEM locking setup. It would make sense to initially torque it tight (43 ft lbs) to insure the hub & bearings are fully seated, and then adjust to make sure there is no play and spins freely. That is just my opinion.

 

[80t0ylc]

1996 Toyota FSM. The 1994 FSM (that I have) is misprinted; the instructions relating to the adjusting nut end with 'Loosen the nut until it can be turned by hand'- they omitted the final step which is to torque to 48 in/lbs. prior to measuring the resistance. This mistake has been pointed out in previous posts, although a person could be forgiven for not reading every post in this forum. Which is why I'm bringing it to everyone's attention that happens to read this thread.

1996 FSM: Note that the adjustment nut is supposed to be tightened to 43 ft/lbs several times, but the final torque on that nut is 48 in/lbs.

View attachment 3358090


1994 FSM: (misprinted, missing final instruction for the adjustment nut)
View attachment 3358091

I like the '96 procedure better and have up dated my '94 to incorporate that change. Thank you for showing your source!

I'd highly recommend throwing the trail gear nuts in the recycle bin and getting yourself some OEM nuts, washers, and lockwashers. My apologies to anyone this might offend, but that system is garbage. I've seen it fail in multiple ways firsthand, as have several other people. If you hadn't noticed, this thread started because someone was having issues with this system.

But I disagree with you on this. Zuk recommended the TG setup and another mudder, @LandCruiserPhil has praise for it, just to name a few. Been running the TG setup for 5 yrs now with no problems. To each their own.

 

[-Spike-]

I like the '96 procedure better and have up dated my '94 to incorporate that change. Thank you for showing your source!

But I disagree with you on this. Zuk recommended the TG setup and another mudder, @LandCruiserPhil has praise for it, just to name a few. Been running the TG setup for 5 yrs now with no problems. To each their own.

Agree to disagree, just giving the OP my opinion. I've been running the stock setup for 19 years on various 80's and years before that on a 40. IMO it has more redundancy and less things can go wrong. I realize that there are people that have had issues with it, but it has been my experience that it works as intended when done correctly. And my experience with the trail gear nuts has not been that.

 

[-Spike-]

I’m running 35’s and was thinking maybe 20-35 ft/lbs with plenty of hub spinning to settle the bearing down.

FWIW over the years I have ranged between 20 and 35 ft/lbs, the last time being 35. However, I believe my bearings have prematurely worn since I torqued the inner nut to 35, and I will be backing off to 20 when I replace them. I end up retorquing them more often than most folks due to beating my truck offroad twice a week and breaking axles, diffs, and chasing death wobble, so that might have caused them to wear prematurely, never having the opportunity to loosen up a smidge. 20 was fine when I did it, never loosened, but other people going with higher torque values convinced me that it was worth trying.

 

[mudgudgeon]

What torque did you land on? Are you using this trail gear single nut system?

Yes, have had the trail gear stuff on my last two cruisers.
Torque to 30lb, rotate the wheel a few times, check your still at 30lb preloaded then lock it in place.

I think whatever method you use the key is getting the bearing fully seated and with sufficient preload before locking it down.
Rotate the wheel a few times, recheck it.
I use a dead blow or lump hammer and pound around the perimeter of the tire (hit the sidewall inward) to seat the bearing.
I've found when you torque to 30lb, rotate the hub, retorque you'll get another ⅓of a turn before hitting 30lb again. Pound the sidewall, you'll get yet another ⅙ of a turn before hitting 30lb again. Doing this, I've not had then come loose.

Whereas using the FSM method, I have had bearings loose within a few 1000km.
The fish scale thing to me is bogus. I don't think it's reliably repeatable at all.

YMMV

 

[BILT4ME]

What torque did you land on? Are you using this trail gear single nut system?

I run the TG nuts and I have landed on 35 lb-ft.

I have about 60K on them in this setup and no issues.

I run 285's and am primarily on-road, but heavily loaded.

The factory settings led to very loose wheel bearings in under 1000 miles.

I switched to TG because the spindles on mine have PO damage and it needed a thicker nut to spread out the load in the threads.

I bought the Allen head screws got the retainers and I bought enough to do a couple replacement sets because they are so tiny it's easy to strip the hex centers or drop them if doing a field repair.

 

[ajax1]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. What is everyone torquing the axle nut to when using this trail gear set up? I know opinions on torque numbers are already all over the map with the traditional inner and outer nut system with the outer but being torqued a fair amount and the inner nut being torqued quite lightly. I however haven’t seen any good numbers with this single but system. I’m running 35’s and was thinking maybe 20-35 ft/lbs with plenty of hub spinning to settle the bearing down. I’d love to get some other opinions.

I run them still on my 96 set anywhere from 25 to 35ftlbs. Last time I had the axle apart I put them to 35ftlbs no issues. You will need to change the screws that Is all as I listed in the beginning.