Trail Communications: CB and HAM

[pappy]

Moved: Radio Communications, CB and HAM

Now that some of you have seen the 80, I am open for advice on how to begin the mod process. Thanks again everyone

Get yourself a CB, and a mag-mount antenna until you can do a permanent install on the bumper of your choice. Communication on the trail is important. Talk to Mike (Beo) about his Uniden 520 install in his dash. Someplace there is a FAQ on it too. In the mean time we have several portables in the group. We were recently contacted by a company in Utah with good prices, flat shipping, and a club discount. Right Channel Radios is the link. Shawn and I have the discount code.

After the CB, I would suggest you consider a HAM license. Some of us have gone that way, and I think we currently have about 5-6 licenses in the group. We found out the hard way that CB has limitations.

 

[DanS HJ-45]

After the CB, I would suggest you consider a HAM license. Some of us have gone that way, and I think we currently have about 5-6 licenses in the group. We found out the hard way that CB has limitations.

About that....

The faux lux demands some help here (probably about the same time that the SAS goes in). I'm not sure that I can fit both into the cab without getting seriously dorky and cramped, so which would you choose?

Dan

 

[SteveLCetc]

About that....

The faux lux demands some help here (probably about the same time that the SAS goes in). I'm not sure that I can fit both into the cab without getting seriously dorky and cramped, so which would you choose?

Dan

That would depend on whether you want to relate to the past or to the future.

 

[slimbuddha]

About that....

The faux lux demands some help here (probably about the same time that the SAS goes in). I'm not sure that I can fit both into the cab without getting seriously dorky and cramped, so which would you choose?

Dan

As we are trying to move towards HAM.. i would go with HAM, and just a portable CB (when needed). Ham can help you when you are solo, as you will more likely find someone listening on a HAM station that can get you some help (even a non-offroader), but the CB is probably only going to be used when you are traveling with a group, and then your usually close enough to get the next person with a small hand-held.

my 2¢

 

[pappy]

About that....

The faux lux demands some help here (probably about the same time that the SAS goes in). I'm not sure that I can fit both into the cab without getting seriously dorky and cramped, so which would you choose?

Dan

FT-7800 or FT-8800. Dual band. Cross band repeat. And because of your tight quarters, the removable face that can be mounted easy with the unit behind the seat, under the seat, or in the glovebox. I will be sticking a FT-8800 in Da'40.

Mike and Steve (and Ash?) have the FT-7800. Mike has his face mounted on the dash remotely if you want to see what I'm talking about.

 

[pappy]

Ham can help you when you are solo, as you will more likely find someone listening on a HAM station that can get you some help (even a non-offroader)...

my 2¢

Real live example for those of you not familiar with HAM.

I was in Utah a few weeks ago. I went there for a little R'nR that was NOT supposed to involve any wheeling. Ya ... right. No tools, no spare parts, no recovery gear, just camping stuff. I ended up in a remote canyon 24 miles from the main road, with no town even close (Hanksville?). After I made camp I tuned in the repeater on Mt. Ellen in the Henry Mountains. I'll be dang, I was able to contact the repeater which turned out to be 47 miles away. This repeater is part of a larger linked system that covers a good chunk of E. Utah all the way to Provo and SLC. The result? Even though cell phones were worthless, I had contact with the outside world with the HAM. HAM radio offers a degree of confidence when camping solo that you can't get with other forms of communication ... except for maybe satellite phones. And in a pinch, it is possible to use satellites for HAM too, though I know nothing about it.

 

[Beowulf]

[CB or HAM] ... so which would you choose?

You don't want to hear this but both.... at least for now. The majority of our club has CB. Most national Toyota events will primarily use CB for trail communication. Truck-to-Truck communication with CB will be with us for a while.

We are seeing a pretty fast moving trend toward amateur radio for trail use. Rising Sun has trained and converted a large percentage of their members to HAM radio. NorCal Cruisers have completely converted to HAM radio and do not use CB.

As stated above, several of our club members have added HAM radios to our vehicles. The main reason for me was the vastly improved communications for a modest increase in cost.

A new CB radio will cost between $50 and $100. Technically, they are all pretty much the same at 5w output and 40 channels. The differences between one CB brand and another are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. A new CB antenna will cost between $50 and $100 with the better mag mounts being more expensive. Installing a CB and a HAM are basically the same and they are about the same physical size. So, figure $150 for a new CB rig installed.

A new HAM radio antenna will cost about $100. A new HAM radio will cost between $150 and $$$$ stupid expensive, but for our purposes most of us will be selecting equipment in the under-$200 range. Once you study and take your Technician's test you will have a better understanding of the low and high ends of equipment. I know you are a professional pilot so you are familiar with quality UHF and VHF radios. HAM gear is commercial quality. I'll also add that used equipment is available on eBay and HAM forums. The prices are somewhat better than new but I didn't find the price difference compelling. So, figure $300 for a new HAM rig installed.

The difference in capability would be like two kids with tin cans on a string compared to commercial two-way radio gear that you can reach another station from 20 miles. The potential is even greater with local repeaters, state-wide linked repeaters, and IRLP for world-wide communications. I am a complete noobie with HAM communications so I still cannot answer many questions but I am 100% sold on using these radios for our hobby.

"So, if HAM is so much better than CB, why doesn't everyone in HDC use HAM equipment?" Logical question. It is more expensive, albeit not a lot compared to the other things we spend money on in this hobby. It requires some reading of the FCC rules and regulations and a bit of radio theory. It requires a test and $14 for a testing fee. (Free 10-year license though.) All this means that a person has to make an effort to become a HAM and we are all busy in our lives. There is also a nerdy stigma that is a turn-off to some of the HDC members. I can understand that.

So, the answer to your simple question: "Which one?" is.... "Both."
If "both" is not an option, then I would advise getting a HAM radio; possibly an HT (hand-held transceiver) like the VX-150 but there are dozens to choose from.

-Mike-

 

[alia176]

Dan,

Get the cheapest, POS CB radio you can get your hands on but spend the money on the antenna install and tuning or a simple mag mount. A properly tuned antenna/coax setup will make any CB radio sing nicely. If you need a hand, I'll be home this coming weekend and I have a tuner thingie-ma-bob.

My HAM radio is an older Yaesu FT-1500 2M radio. It's smaller than my CB!

 

[pappy]

I'm going to take Mike's figures a bit further with some live examples.

CB. Not the cheap way out, but good stuff that will work fine for our use. My bias here, of course.

• Radio: Uniden 520XL: $60 (510XL is $10 less and about the same radio)
• Antenna: Wilson Little Wil Mag Mount: $35
• Shipping: $10

So a decent CB system for just a tad over $100. Keep in mind that the 520 is a very compact CB with NO bells or whistles. Just a basic radio with the maximum allowed 5W power. Of course you can go up from there ... or down. The Uniden 538 I bought for Da'40 was $70, and the Wilson 4' fiberglass antenna was $20. Of course with this antenna you need cable ($13) and a mount ($6) so cost was about the same. Uniden is my brand of choice. Cobra and Midland are also good choices.

HAM. Sky is the limit here, so I'll give two examples. One is the setup in the 4Runner, and the other what I'm going to run in Da'40. Note that the antennas will swap between rigs. All my antennas have PL-259 mounts as opposed to NMO, which I believe is what Mike runs.

4Runner:

• Radio: Yaesu FT-2800 2M mono-band: $128
• Antenna: Comet dual-band CA-2X4SR: $57 (gain: 3.8VHF, 6.2UHF)
• Cable/mount: Comet 3D5M: $26

That's $211 before the ride. I like the FT-2800 because it puts out 60W. Downside ... it's very large and difficult to mount in my little 4Runner.

Da'40:

• Radio: Yaesu FT-8800 dual-band: $370 (the FT-7800 is $120 less)
• Antenna: Comet dual band SBB-7: $65 (gain: 4.5VHF, 7.2UHF)
• Cable/mount: Comet 3D5M: $26

So $461 before the ride. Now that I'm getting comfortable with HAM I really want a radio with more features. I have the SBB-7 antenna already and can't wait to try it in Canyonlands this October.

Other good HAM radio manufactures include Kenwood and Icom. This group seems to have standardized on Yaesu because we can support each other on the learning curve. They also tend to be less expensive, but still great quality.

 

[marcfj60]

As a CB-only owner I still plan to be equipped with a HAM system eventually. I bought a used Uniden PRO 510XL and a Hustler Mag Mount antenna for about $50 that had hardly been used. It gets the job done as long as the people I'm talking to are within about 500 yards. But I've seen how amazing a HAM radio can be when I was on the south side of El Malpais with Jon and he was talking to Mike (who was in his garage.)

But like Mike said, our lives are busy and like many have said, it can be expensive. My lack of free time and extra money has kept me from getting into it. Plus, I don't wheel very often ( a few times a year if I'm lucky) so that makes it even harder to justify.

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Appreciate the offer Ali. I'll be home saturday night, but no playing with radios that soon for me... yet.

Very interesting. I see I have some reading to do.... I saw the 2M stuff (or rather heard it) on the 45 run and was really amazed with it. I also like the idea that it might be useful to communicate when I'm not with other folks (which is pretty often for me).

How big of a ground plane do you need for 2M antennae? I know I've seen them mounted to bumpers and stuff, but I know with VHF/UHF radios on aircraft the ground plane has to be pretty big.

I'd almost be tempted to buy an el cheapo CB for now and simply plan on replacing it with a HAM at some point in the hopefully not too distant future. I'm assuming they only need a power source, ground and maybe wires to a speaker and antennae, or is there anything more complicated that I'm forgetting?

Dan

 

[alia176]

we should start a new thread or revive an old HAM/CB thread, me thinks...

 

[pappy]

we should start a new thread or revive an old HAM/CB thread, me thinks...

OK, done.

 

[marcfj60]

I'm assuming they only need a power source, ground and maybe wires to a speaker and antennae, or is there anything more complicated that I'm forgetting?

Dan

For power I tapped into the wire going to the cig lighter. The unit has a speaker inside it which is adequate since mine is not covered up. I think it also has an output which you can hook up to an auxiliary speaker. The coax wire to the mag antenna just runs out the door. There's enough squish with the door seal that it works just fine. The only modifications I made to my truck was hard mounting the mounting bracket to a rigid air duct near my right knee (so I can reach it) and put in a quick disconnect hanging out from below the dash for power. Before that, I just plugged it into the cig lighter.

 

[pappy]

I'm assuming they only need a power source, ground and maybe wires to a speaker and antennae, or is there anything more complicated that I'm forgetting?

Dan

Power depends. With a CB you can put a socket on the cord and use the cigarette lighter. Because HAM uses more power the cable needs to be hooked directly to the battery, or a significant block off the battery. No skimping with 18g wire here. I seem to recall my FT-2800 was wired with 12g wire and has an inline 15amp fuse. If I don't have a full charge on the aux battery my HAM will not transmit on the higher powers. The radio just shuts down.

An external speaker is optional, and almost all CBs have the provision. My Uniden 538 has a front fire speaker which is why I choose the radio. Most are bottom fire so you need to place it properly to hear it.

 

[alia176]

Power depends. With a CB you can put a socket on the cord and use the cigarette lighter.

Pulling power out of the cig lighter doesn't always provide the cleanest power around. You *may* pickup IGN noise through this circuit since this wire makes a circuitous route from the battery to the cig lighter. It's preferable to pick up CB power straight from the POS batt term and the ground should be landed on the chassis somewhere.

 

[pappy]

You don't want to hear this but both.... at least for now.

I also like the idea that it might be useful to communicate when I'm not with other folks (which is pretty often for me).

Ham can help you when you are solo, as you will more likely find someone listening on a HAM station that can get you some help.

The result? Even though cell phones were worthless, I had contact with the outside world with the HAM. HAM radio offers a degree of confidence when camping solo that you can't get with other forms of communication.

Awhile back we had this debate when a few club members started to get their licenses. I even poo-poo'd the idea at first, but recognized the value of some people in the group getting their geek license. I think the debate has now been settled. CB is not going away and an installed CB unit will not become obsolete anytime soon. They have a place for informal group communication. We don't need everybody in the group with a call sign. But for those of us that travel solo into remote areas the HAM radio spanks almost all other forms of communication ... provided you know how to use it. I went HAM not so much because of HDC, but because I get out of range, solo ... on purpose. The HAM lets me get away with greater confidence.

Yes, I know the HAM is worthless in Baja, but that is where my next technology acquisition will come in. Can you say 'SPOT'?

 

[bonfire]

Thank you

Thanks Pappy, I really appreciate it. With all the cool lifts, bumpers, winches, tires etc etc etc It is easy to forget the safety stuff. So I think I will take your sound advice and outfit the new to me 80 w/ a CB radio. I will put off the ham stuff till later. Thanks again