Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (2 Viewers)

[skrypj]

And a host of other things that aren’t all desirable.

I thought it weird at first but it allows the owner to choose which controller and they aren’t created equal.

I am curious how the Cruiser handles anti sway versus a Ford. If I recall correctly, our Navigator used the proximity sensors to sense away and apply the brakes to counteract it.

I have not had any aftermarket controllers that were anywhere as smooth or seamless as my factory F150 controller. The one in the F150 knows when and how far you are depressing the brake pedal with out the need for g-sensors to try and figure out how hard to apply the trailer brakes. As a result, the trailer felt invisible, which has not been my experience with my Tekonsha P3 or Redarc Tow Pro Elite.

So I dont see how not having a factory controller that integrates into the trucks network is a good thing.

 

[Artie]

I have not had any aftermarket controllers that were anywhere as smooth or seamless as my factory F150 controller. The one in the F150 knows when and how far you are depressing the brake pedal with out the need for g-sensors to try and figure out how hard to apply the trailer brakes. As a result, the trailer felt invisible, which has not been my experience with my Tekonsha P3 or Redarc Tow Pro Elite.

So I dont see how not having a factory controller that integrates into the trucks network is a good thing.

Interesting. My experience with the tow pro elite proportional mode results in less lock ups than I had on my 2018 Navigator. however, stop and go use can get a little grabby.

 

[TeCKis300]

I've experienced a butt pucker moment when towing in high winds. Maybe not anti-sway specifically but stability control definitely did the job and settled the rig quick.

It was on the freeway through rolling hills where the the freeway is cut into the hilltops. Where the tops of the hills make for nice wind breaks, the face of these same hills where the freeways open into make for nasty crosswinds channels. Right as the rig is transitioning to a downhill, changing the hitch lash-up from in tension to compression, and where articulated rigs are most vulnerable to sway.

The cross wind caught the ample slab that is my trailer and pushed the rear of the rig enough for it to break traction. Stability control intervened with a quick beep beep, and stopped the drama as quickly as it started.

One thing to take away is that it's a great safety net. More importantly is that proper hitch setup is hugely important and there should be amble margin to avoid sway to begin with. Stability control cannot do its job without sufficient traction and stability to begin with. Another reason I run full fats because additional lateral traction is always an asset.

 

[2021 LC200]

I second stability and anti sway control by the traction system is a great thing to have.

Regarding wider tires, I am not convinced that actually helps. They certainly aquaplane easier yet contact surface is not different and as such lateral stability I would not expect either. Perhaps this is counter intuitive except when one considers Force (weight vehicle) = Pressure (what is in the tire to carry the vehicle weight) multiplied by Area (which is turn has to be the same when the weight of the vehicle is the same).

In fact the fairly narrow looking factory tires on our 200 series are probably optimum as is, including wet traction. All in all wider tires do not do it for me, then again I am not a tire expert so bring it on.

 

[TeCKis300]

I second stability and anti sway control by the traction system is a great thing to have.

Regarding wider tires, I am not convinced that actually helps. They certainly aquaplane easier yet contact surface is not different and as such lateral stability I would not expect either. Perhaps this is counter intuitive except when one considers Force (weight vehicle) = Pressure (what is in the tire to carry the vehicle weight) divided by Area (which is turn has to be the same when the weight of the vehicle is the same).

In fact the fairly narrow looking factory tires on our 200 series are probably optimum as is, including wet traction. All in all wider tires do not do it for me, then again I am not a tire expert so bring it on.
View attachment 3852412

View attachment 3852413

I guess you wouldn't be surprised that IMO Tinkerer's got this one wrong. A rare fumble, but his basis is faulty, as he's comparing LT-E tires that have load equivalence at hugely different pressures (80psi vs 65psi). It's no wonder the sidewalls flex differently.

Trucks are no different to cars, and all else being equal, performance cars use wider tires because they can provide more lateral traction. For the same reasons longer contact patches can generate more longitudinal traction. It doesn't need to be one versus the other as one can get advantages in both lateral and longitudinal directions (at the cost of maybe MPG efficiency) by running larger overall diameter and wider tires.

More on Tinkerer's video in this thread.

Like the intent of the author of the video, it's important to control for variables to know what we're comparing.

Taking a representative inflation table of a 265/70R17 that probably pretty close to the 255/85R17 in question that has the same LT-E load index 121 requiring 80 psi. The different pressures they need to achieve load equivalence is what's in question. Because that's the best we can do to approximate differences in sidewall stiffness. Which Tinkerer unfortunately assumes is the same which definitely skeww results.

View attachment 3385748

This is important because, with the LC for example, wants a tire load handling of 2295lbs RCTIP per tire for normal on-road use. That means with data from the data is that the skinny needs 46PSI RCTIP whereas the wide only needs something like 28 PSI RCTIP for tire load handling equivalence. (note that practically this should not be lower than 33 psi, but that's a different point). That's a huge 18PSI delta!

For Tinkerers graph, the red trend line may need to be shifted to the left by some offset, perhaps 18psi, as it's important for tire to support the load carrying. @Heckraiser also makes a good point that most aftermarket rims we run are 8-9" wide, irrespective of tire width. That that's going to impact and limit useful airing down of the 255 for bead retention.

View attachment 3385759

 

[2021 LC200]

F = P * A

I believe Toyota knows best and fitted it with 285 mm wide tires run at around 36psi cold and 40 psi warm.

Putting your large diameter 35 or 37 and wider tires on there is great to clear off road obstacles yet I do not believe at 50 psi or so pressure to keep them in shape on the highway helps you with lateral grip when towing. The higher pressure is not your friend and with F being constant reduces A. I have witnessed this wider tire cool looking yet reduced side way grip on my daughters Jeep Wrangler including how quick they are prone to aqua planing.

PS - My point is at regular operating pressures or slightly higher when towing to manage flex (and therefore heat) the main factor in lateral grip is the contact area. The sidewall stength and stiffness of the same is to manage several things amongst which staying on the rim during hard cornering. Since contact area is shorter and wider for wider tires it creates higher local loads and it requires a strong sidewall. Does not mean they flex less sideways, they are needed to make up for a different geometry and loads between tire and rim. While stiffer sidewalls are more common/required on wider tires, the typical additional operating pressure (more like 45 to 50 psi vs 35 to 40 psi) will reduce contact area. Certainly one offsetting the other. In my opinion operating pressure is the dominant factor.

 

[GordJ]

Not being a rock crawler or an engineer all I got from that video, besides the cool footprint pictures, was questions. Like how many bottles of nox does he have and how many did he use? And how much time did it take him to acquire all that data? And why doesn’t he have a pneumatic jack at home? Or at least a battery powered one. And why isn’t there a Dewalt electric jack yet?
But his videos are thought provoking and never a waste of time.

 

[2021 LC200]

Some more interesting stuff from the Tinkerer

 

[Artie]

Some more interesting stuff from the Tinkerer

He’s one of the few channels I watch as soon as a new video drops. He’s the king of “explain like I’m 5” when it comes to suspension stuff.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

This is true.

Thanks.

I have found much info on here to be great accurate, and helpful......but some of the stuff i have found is regurgitated BS, by those who don't even turn a wrench, and take their LC to the dealer for dealer service. The throwback on the ATF filter subject and calling it a "screen" tells me this. To many of the same people with the wrong info, and that info becomes fact............

Kind of like the recent head gasket scare from the sensationalist on YT, The Car Care Nut.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

I've experienced a butt pucker moment when towing in high winds. Maybe not anti-sway specifically but stability control definitely did the job and settled the rig quick.

It was on the freeway through rolling hills where the the freeway is cut into the hilltops. Where the tops of the hills make for nice wind breaks, the face of these same hills where the freeways open into make for nasty crosswinds channels. Right as the rig is transitioning to a downhill, changing the hitch lash-up from in tension to compression, and where articulated rigs are most vulnerable to sway.

The cross wind caught the ample slab that is my trailer and pushed the rear of the rig enough for it to break traction. Stability control intervened with a quick beep beep, and stopped the drama as quickly as it started.

One thing to take away is that it's a great safety net. More importantly is that proper hitch setup is hugely important and there should be amble margin to avoid sway to begin with. Stability control cannot do its job without sufficient traction and stability to begin with. Another reason I run full fats because additional lateral traction is always an asset.

We had a really nasty sway incident that had our trailer swaying back and forth and even off the wheels. It was triggered by a large flatbed truck coming up on our left side at a high speed. Both the truck and the trailer swayed. We recovered first by slowing down and then applying extremely gentle braking. We didn't notice any interaction with regards to sway control on the LC at all. If there was any beeping we didn't notice it amongst the mayhem.

We could have applied the trailer brake (we have a Tow Pro Elite) however this meant one hand had to come off the wheel and my wife who was driving at the time didn't think she could control the truck if she did that.

It's really scary stuff.

 

[Artie]

We had a really nasty sway incident that had our trailer swaying back and forth and even off the wheels. It was triggered by a large flatbed truck coming up on our left side at a high speed. Both the truck and the trailer swayed. We recovered first by slowing down and then applying extremely gentle braking. We didn't notice any interaction with regards to sway control on the LC at all. If there was any beeping we didn't notice it amongst the mayhem.

We could have applied the trailer brake (we have a Tow Pro Elite) however this meant one hand had to come off the wheel and my wife who was driving at the time didn't think she could control the truck if she did that.

It's really scary stuff.

I’ve never had a pucker factor sway issue but I’ve read that throttle out > braking but I guess it’s all dependent on the actual situation.

I weigh my tongue almost every time I tow my camper. We usually are packed the same but there are times I throw on some extra firewood and that sites behind the trailer tires which can really throw off the tongue weight.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

I’ve never had a pucker factor sway issue but I’ve read that throttle out > braking but I guess it’s all dependent on the actual situation.

I weigh my tongue almost every time I tow my camper. We usually are packed the same but there are times I throw on some extra firewood and that sites behind the trailer tires which can really throw off the tongue weight.

Tongue weight could have been an issue or at least a heavier tongue weight may have helped. I have no idea what the tongue weight was at the time however I rearranged the cargo in the trailer so that more weight was toward the front of the trailer once we got to our destination. It's never happened again with literally hundreds of trucks passing us at high speed. Coincidence? Luck? We have no idea. I have since bought a tongue scale but haven't used it yet.

I have read all specs about percentages when it comes to tongue weight. However, it's no guarantee that if you measure X lbs you've got a free pass against sway in all conditions.

We've beaten ourselves up over this.We did see the truck coming after all. Should we have anticipated the episode? Dozens of trucks had passed us up until that point. It was our first major trip and we just didn't know.

 

[Artie]

Tongue weight could have been an issue or at least a heavier tongue weight may have helped. I have no idea what the tongue weight was at the time however I rearranged the cargo in the trailer so that more weight was toward the front of the trailer once we got to our destination. It's never happened again with literally hundreds of trucks passing us at high speed. Coincidence? Luck? We have no idea. I have since bought a tongue scale but haven't used it yet.

I have read all specs about percentages when it comes to tongue weight. However, it's no guarantee that if you measure X lbs you've got a free pass against sway in all conditions.

We've beaten ourselves up over this.We did see the truck coming after all. Should we have anticipated the episode? Dozens of trucks had passed us up until that point. It was our first major trip and we just didn't know.

Your user name really fits… “frazzled” lol

Real talk, I tend to ruminate on these types of things as well, don’t lose anymore sleep over this. It sounds to me like you didn’t cause it and you’ve also learned how to make a repeat more difficult by packing properly and buying the scale. Seeing how it was one of your first trips I can promise you that there was going to be some “I’m not doing that again” things to arise, sounds like you’ve pinpointed and solved for yours.

We are 30k miles in with our camper and I’m still fiddling around with things… fix it and move on yo the next thing.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

Your user name really fits… “frazzled” lol

Real talk, I tend to ruminate on these types of things as well, don’t lose anymore sleep over this. It sounds to me like you didn’t cause it and you’ve also learned how to make a repeat more difficult by packing properly and buying the scale. Seeing how it was one of your first trips I can promise you that there was going to be some “I’m not doing that again” things to arise, sounds like you’ve pinpointed and solved for yours.

We are 30k miles in with our camper and I’m still fiddling around with things… fix it and move on yo the next thing.

Well I'll mention that I can't take much credit for handling it as my wife was driving. All I did was A)not lose it B)say to her to slowdown don't brake yet, hold the wheel straight, don't try to counter steer.

When it was over we found a wide shoulder to stop as I wanted to examine the hitch. I finished with that and walked up to the her and said "hey you want to take a break?". Her answer: "Nope. I've got to know how to handle this. Let's go" . It was her first time towing on a major trip. No one would have blamed her for wanting knock off. She's a badass IMHO.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

is there a consensus on what the best or second best trailer hitch is? i'll likely be towing a uhaul 6x12 cargo trailer.

Anyone will do for that purpose, and that weight. I would suggest an adjustable one, with 2 and 2.5 inch balls.........and you will never have to buy another one.

 

[skrypj]

Interesting. My experience with the tow pro elite proportional mode results in less lock ups than I had on my 2018 Navigator. however, stop and go use can get a little grabby.

My Tow pro will also be grabby in stop and go, but in order to get it to not be you have to set the gain so low that it barely does anything at speed. I find I am always messing with the gain on the Tow pro to get it to behave how I want in different conditions. Not that its hard.

I can't say I ever had lockups on my F150 unless I was just on a really slick surface. I think I usually kept gain around 7 and used the manual lever to test it as I was leaving my neighborhood on each trip, and it was always fine.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

My Tow pro will also be grabby in stop and go, but in order to get it to not be you have to set the gain so low that it barely does anything at speed. I find I am always messing with the gain on the Tow pro to get it to behave how I want in different conditions. Not that its hard.

I can't say I ever had lockups on my F150 unless I was just on a really slick surface. I think I usually kept gain around 7 and used the manual lever to test it as I was leaving my neighborhood on each trip, and it was always fine.

I haven't noticed any grabbiness. Maybe it's because I have a small light trailer.

 

[skrypj]

I’ve never had a pucker factor sway issue but I’ve read that throttle out > braking but I guess it’s all dependent on the actual situation.

I weigh my tongue almost every time I tow my camper. We usually are packed the same but there are times I throw on some extra firewood and that sites behind the trailer tires which can really throw off the tongue weight.

I never have either, and I have towed in some ferocious winds in Wyoming and southern UT.

 

[skrypj]

I haven't noticed any grabbiness. Maybe it's because I have a small light trailer.

Mine will literally jerk the entire truck if I dont slow down with the utmost of care of basically bottom out the gain when i am at lower speed.