Just to throw another opinion, I have read and re-read my manual and the only reference to towing gearing says that you should downshift going downhill to avoid overheating. I have done all my towing in drive without changing to the power setting. I understand that some tech stream readers can get elevated tranny temps but I don’t feel this has been an issue when I’ve towed. This is only my opinion and I know that there are smarter people than me who religiously downshift to tow. I also use the cruise whenever possible. The LC has 200,000+ miles and doesn’t seem to be affected by these practices, fingers crossed.
Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (3 Viewers)
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2 kids and a dog and I agree 100%. We had an airstream before the Black rock. The Slide out and bunks is a must have for kids.
My wife and I were just talking the other day about how much great family time we’ve had over the years camping. My kids are teens now and were very excited yesterday to go pick up the camper from winter storage.
And I also use “power” and S4 on the 6 speed when towing.
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So the thing about not towing in Drive is actually a "Tip" in the owners manual. (Page 186 in my 2016 manual.).
■When driving with cruise control or dynamic radar cruise control acti- vated
Even when performing the following actions with the intent of enabling engine braking, engine braking will not activate because cruise control or radar cruise control will not be canceled.
●While driving in S mode, downshifting to 7, 6, 5 or 4. (P. 257, 269)
●When switching the driving mode to power mode while driving in D position.
(P. 200)
Not sure what all that means but ...
- To maintain engine braking efficiency and charging system perfor-
mance when using engine braking, do not put the transmission in D.
If in the S mode, the transmission shift range position must be in 6 or lower. (P. 199) - ● Instability happens more frequently when descending steep or long downhill grades. Before descending, slow down and downshift. Do not make sudden downshifts while descending steep or long down- hill grades.
■When driving with cruise control or dynamic radar cruise control acti- vated
Even when performing the following actions with the intent of enabling engine braking, engine braking will not activate because cruise control or radar cruise control will not be canceled.
●While driving in S mode, downshifting to 7, 6, 5 or 4. (P. 257, 269)
●When switching the driving mode to power mode while driving in D position.
(P. 200)
Not sure what all that means but ...
- Thread starter
- #444
On the 2013 the manual just says "don't use cruise control when towing".
FWIW I use it in old-school (non-radar) mode when I'm on long stretches of flat-ish highway. I suspect there are 2 potential issues:
FWIW I use it in old-school (non-radar) mode when I'm on long stretches of flat-ish highway. I suspect there are 2 potential issues:
- Radar-activated braking may not respond like the system expects due to the additional trailer load, brake controller setting, etc
- To the point you mentioned from the 2016+ manual, cruise control may leave the vehicle in a higher gear when descending steep grades which may result in you building up more speed than you want. Note this would be an issue even if you're just driving in the same gear, it's just that you might be assuming cruise would "maintain" you speed whereas it actually attempts to maintain a minimum speed but doesn't necessarily prevent you from (significantly) exceeding it depending on the terrain.
Hey Linux, I haven’t seen any significant difference when the cruise brakes while towing and I usually set it at the second distance setting so there is a bit of a longer “buffer” to keep away from more aggressive braking.
I also have learned to love the paddle shifters, especially on those downhills that you described.
- Thread starter
- #446
I haven't either but if someone jumped in front of you and you have your trailer brakes set hot I could see it not responding as expected. Honestly I think the prohibition on cruise with towing is mainly due to controlling speed on steep descents.
- Thread starter
- #447
For fun I stopped for fuel and got on a CAT scale this weekend on my way out to the local state park. Fully loaded cruiser (2 adults (300#), 3 kids (240#), 1 big dog (75#), full cooler )75#?), 2 kayaks on the roof (70#) and mostly loaded trailer (normal gear, propane, battery, 2 bikes in the front of the trailer and 3 in the rear). Truck currently has a Gamiviti roof rack, Trail Tailor front bumper with Warn winch, White Knuckle sliders, 34" Nitto tires, and easily 50# of recovery gear in a bag in the trunk. I'm running E-load tires at 45 psi when towing.
Weigh #1:
Front Axle: 3500
Rear Axle: 4960
Truck weight: 8,460 (with WD hitch)
Trailer Axles: 5140
Total weight: 13,600
Weigh #2:
Front Axle: 3700
Rear Axle: 3840
Truck weight: 7540
Trailer Axles: 0 (trailer was not connected)
Total weight: 7540
Implied trailer weight is 6060# (13600 - 3840 - 3700).
I didn't weigh my tongue this time or weigh the rig without the WD bars, but I'm guessing my TW was ~920# (4960 - 3940 - (3700-3500) ), which is just a hair over 15%. FWIW I did weight my tongue last spring and was at~770#, but I've since swapped the coil spring mattress up front with a heavier memory foam one, added 2 glass solar panels up top, and was carrying 2 bikes up front, so that number feels about right.
As a side note I got on a scale last August on my way back from the LCDC and our summer road trip. No bikes, probably a bit less propane, less food/beer, no kayaks, and no dog, but otherwise reasonably similar setup. Front axle was 3460, rear was 4620, trailer was 5200, for a total of 13,280 at the time.
I'm currently looking at ways to shift some TW back in the trailer behind the axles to try and remove a few hundred pounds from the rear axle. It's a tricky balancing act because I could put my cooler and tools in the trailer and shift 150-200# off the rear axle of the truck *plus* getting it behind the trailer axle will reduce the TW slightly. However the trailer has a 6000# GWVR and I'm already 60# over, so I need to balance an overweight cruiser with an overweight TT - and I trust the cruiser to handle the excess weight better than a TT. First thing I'm going to try is to re-mount the spare from under the tongue to behind the rear axle to just shift weight, but I don't see that moving more than 25-30# off the tongue. I'm open to other ideas if anyone has any.
The Toyota factory max #s BTW are:
Front: 3595
Rear: 4300
GVWR: 7385 (note that's ~500# less than max front + max rear)
GCWR: 14,400 (includes trailer up to 8100#)
FYI I currently have the Tough Dog 45mm adjustables with 240#/in rear coils (vs 170#/in stock) but stock 500# in the front. I did some research a while back regarding the GVM upgrades, which ups the front axle to 3960 and the rear to 4400# (8360# total) via 675# front coils and 320# rear, for comparison.
Weigh #1:
Front Axle: 3500
Rear Axle: 4960
Truck weight: 8,460 (with WD hitch)
Trailer Axles: 5140
Total weight: 13,600
Weigh #2:
Front Axle: 3700
Rear Axle: 3840
Truck weight: 7540
Trailer Axles: 0 (trailer was not connected)
Total weight: 7540
Implied trailer weight is 6060# (13600 - 3840 - 3700).
I didn't weigh my tongue this time or weigh the rig without the WD bars, but I'm guessing my TW was ~920# (4960 - 3940 - (3700-3500) ), which is just a hair over 15%. FWIW I did weight my tongue last spring and was at~770#, but I've since swapped the coil spring mattress up front with a heavier memory foam one, added 2 glass solar panels up top, and was carrying 2 bikes up front, so that number feels about right.
As a side note I got on a scale last August on my way back from the LCDC and our summer road trip. No bikes, probably a bit less propane, less food/beer, no kayaks, and no dog, but otherwise reasonably similar setup. Front axle was 3460, rear was 4620, trailer was 5200, for a total of 13,280 at the time.
I'm currently looking at ways to shift some TW back in the trailer behind the axles to try and remove a few hundred pounds from the rear axle. It's a tricky balancing act because I could put my cooler and tools in the trailer and shift 150-200# off the rear axle of the truck *plus* getting it behind the trailer axle will reduce the TW slightly. However the trailer has a 6000# GWVR and I'm already 60# over, so I need to balance an overweight cruiser with an overweight TT - and I trust the cruiser to handle the excess weight better than a TT. First thing I'm going to try is to re-mount the spare from under the tongue to behind the rear axle to just shift weight, but I don't see that moving more than 25-30# off the tongue. I'm open to other ideas if anyone has any.
The Toyota factory max #s BTW are:
Front: 3595
Rear: 4300
GVWR: 7385 (note that's ~500# less than max front + max rear)
GCWR: 14,400 (includes trailer up to 8100#)
FYI I currently have the Tough Dog 45mm adjustables with 240#/in rear coils (vs 170#/in stock) but stock 500# in the front. I did some research a while back regarding the GVM upgrades, which ups the front axle to 3960 and the rear to 4400# (8360# total) via 675# front coils and 320# rear, for comparison.
indycole
GOLD Star
Easy, just swap in a new rear diff with a 6600 lb load rating (just for the rear).
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Nice. Always great to have empirical data to go by. Have a picture of the rig with all the bikes and kayaks loaded? Pretty awesome you got all those toys on it. Pickup not necessary? 
You're right that it's a balancing act. At least some of the axle weight is in the wheel/tireset. So does that count as axle load weight? Even though you're over the axle rating, I'd trust that the LC can handle it with respectable durability.
Looks like your WD tension is adjusted well. Some people like to adopt the strategy of applying more WD tension to project more weight on to the front axle and back to the trailer axles. I'd temper that with the need to have some flexibility in the hitch lashup as traversing any irregular ground or dips can apply some serious torsion to the tow vehicle and trailers structures when too much WD is applied.
A note on shifting weight behind the trailer axles. A couple of the variables to minimizing trailer sway is to keep the center of gravity ahead of the trailer axles (indirectly measured as tongue weight); also reducing the moment of inertia of the trailer by minimizing weight behind the axles. Too much stored at the rear can have a negative impact. In practice, I do store stuff there anyways but try to keep it light. With most of the heavy loading if possible over the trailer axles.
You're right that it's a balancing act. At least some of the axle weight is in the wheel/tireset. So does that count as axle load weight? Even though you're over the axle rating, I'd trust that the LC can handle it with respectable durability.
Looks like your WD tension is adjusted well. Some people like to adopt the strategy of applying more WD tension to project more weight on to the front axle and back to the trailer axles. I'd temper that with the need to have some flexibility in the hitch lashup as traversing any irregular ground or dips can apply some serious torsion to the tow vehicle and trailers structures when too much WD is applied.
A note on shifting weight behind the trailer axles. A couple of the variables to minimizing trailer sway is to keep the center of gravity ahead of the trailer axles (indirectly measured as tongue weight); also reducing the moment of inertia of the trailer by minimizing weight behind the axles. Too much stored at the rear can have a negative impact. In practice, I do store stuff there anyways but try to keep it light. With most of the heavy loading if possible over the trailer axles.
I was going to say something similar as @TeCKis300. I was heavily loaded this weekend on a trip (firewood, camp chairs, fan, 2 bikes on the roof, and yeti 65 full of beer and ice in the back of the cruiser) but was careful to keep more of the trailer load over the axles or forward. From your recent trip to the scales, it appears as your rig is closer to 1k lbs heavier than mine and I'm guessing it tows just fine? @linuxgod Why do you keep your tire pressure at 45? I'm guessing the load capacity of the tire is ok at that pressure but I've noticed quite a bit more tire sway at lower pressures. I've fiddled with mine and I'm running 285 75 17 BFG AT that are load range E as well and I have found 70psi in the rear and 50 on the front to "feel" better towing. Nevertheless, these are tough vehicles and I got a chuckle at seeing 2 dead chevy trucks with campers behind them on the side of the road going over Afton mountain in VA this past weekend. Ha
- Thread starter
- #451
@indycole - maybe if I bend my current axle I'll consider that. At $5500 I think I'll risk it for now.
@TeCKis300 no photos, sorry. I have some of the kayaks on the truck before I did the bumper and lift on page 1. Interestingly though it rained like crazy on the drive home because I mount them with the open side inward it's a pretty aerodynamic setup as there was no rain in them when I took them off. I'll take a photo next trip in a few weeks.
@vapilotda I run 45psi because 37psi is correct for 7385# load on my 285/75R17 tires and I scaled up from there, basically. 44psi is the correct pressure to run at the tire load limit of ~2600# (including a~25% buffer). 45psi gives me a slight buffer for that load limit and variations in temperature, etc. I could probaly run 50psi and be fine, but I don't deflate the tires when the trailer is off and inflate when it's attached, so 50 psi would be far too harsh on pavement. In your case 70 psi seems high to me - I would expect you to get bounced around a lot if you hit a bump on the highway, like a 1 ton pickup truck with no load in the rear. Tires are part of your suspension, effectively, so you want them to absorb as much of the road as possible without compromising safety or handling.
@TeCKis300 no photos, sorry. I have some of the kayaks on the truck before I did the bumper and lift on page 1. Interestingly though it rained like crazy on the drive home because I mount them with the open side inward it's a pretty aerodynamic setup as there was no rain in them when I took them off. I'll take a photo next trip in a few weeks.
@vapilotda I run 45psi because 37psi is correct for 7385# load on my 285/75R17 tires and I scaled up from there, basically. 44psi is the correct pressure to run at the tire load limit of ~2600# (including a~25% buffer). 45psi gives me a slight buffer for that load limit and variations in temperature, etc. I could probaly run 50psi and be fine, but I don't deflate the tires when the trailer is off and inflate when it's attached, so 50 psi would be far too harsh on pavement. In your case 70 psi seems high to me - I would expect you to get bounced around a lot if you hit a bump on the highway, like a 1 ton pickup truck with no load in the rear. Tires are part of your suspension, effectively, so you want them to absorb as much of the road as possible without compromising safety or handling.
Thanks once again, Geoff, for sharing the numbers. My numbers are up there but not as high as yours. I think my 2285 is a tad bit heavier. But I don’t have the kids, dog, bikes, solar, etc. That said, my TW sits at right about 900 though some of that is due to the 200# weight of the ProPride hitch. I agree with @TeCKis300 (how could I not) that you don’t want to err on too much weight behind the axles. You know that. I saw somewhere last year that the general guidance on bringing the front axle back to near the same height as before hitching up using the WD bars has been replaced. I read (again last year) that there is guidance to bring it half way back. Something about how it all effects vehicle dynamics. As for me, I just try to get the LC close to level.
Too funny that you replaced the mattress in yours. We did the same thing! Though I will say that the OEM mattress was not exactly light.
Do you run with water in your FW tank?
Too funny that you replaced the mattress in yours. We did the same thing! Though I will say that the OEM mattress was not exactly light.
Do you run with water in your FW tank?
- Thread starter
- #453
I'm a bit over 15% of my total trailer weight on the tongue I think, so I wouldn't be too concerned about moving 100# or so behind the axle if I could. I'm sure of the 920# some of that is my hitch as well, since the 770# TW was unhitched. The solar panels and mattress don't add more than 75# to the trailer, possibly less, and not all of that is on the axle. Honestly just moving the cooler from the truck to the back of the trailer would probably do it.
You're correct that Toyota says in the manual you want to bring the front to 50% of the original height. Given the amount of TW and the weight of people and gear in the truck though I'd be happy shifting more than that if I could. That said, I run my Blue-Ox hitch on the 11th chain link, which is the highest it'll go, so at this point all I can really do is shift weight around a bit.
I don't run with water or waste in the tanks unless I have to. Since the tanks aren't baffled I dislike the feeling of 45 gallons of liquid sloshing around especially when braking. Fresh water tank is forward of the axle, grey and black tanks are aft, so really I'd only want to run with waste tanks full in most cases, otherwise it's just more TW to deal with. That said when we didn't have bikes in during our long trip I routinely had either fresh water or waste in the tanks, since many of the federal campgrounds don't have dump stations and many have limited fresh water. At that point I believe my weight is pretty similar (Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser)
Yeah the spring mattress in the Lance was one of my big gripes. It's fine for a weekend, but after 3 weeks straight last summer I was stiff every morning. I had a custom memory foam mattress made by MattressInsider.com for $500, which has been great. If you need a replacement for a trailer I'd highly recommend them. They can do any custom size, height, corner cut (to fit an Airstream), etc. For my Lance they were able to custom cut it so it folds like the original... the only issue I had is that I had it made 1.5" taller and because of the slant of the front of the camper it was slightly too long when folded for the sofa to sit right. I trimmed an inch off the top and bottom and it fits fine now though.
BTW if you haven't done it, my favorite mod to my trailer is actually this one where I converted the (kind of useless) magazine rack to a (liquor) cabinet. It's not as practical as adding solar but it's the most satisfying...
You're correct that Toyota says in the manual you want to bring the front to 50% of the original height. Given the amount of TW and the weight of people and gear in the truck though I'd be happy shifting more than that if I could. That said, I run my Blue-Ox hitch on the 11th chain link, which is the highest it'll go, so at this point all I can really do is shift weight around a bit.
I don't run with water or waste in the tanks unless I have to. Since the tanks aren't baffled I dislike the feeling of 45 gallons of liquid sloshing around especially when braking. Fresh water tank is forward of the axle, grey and black tanks are aft, so really I'd only want to run with waste tanks full in most cases, otherwise it's just more TW to deal with. That said when we didn't have bikes in during our long trip I routinely had either fresh water or waste in the tanks, since many of the federal campgrounds don't have dump stations and many have limited fresh water. At that point I believe my weight is pretty similar (Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser)
Yeah the spring mattress in the Lance was one of my big gripes. It's fine for a weekend, but after 3 weeks straight last summer I was stiff every morning. I had a custom memory foam mattress made by MattressInsider.com for $500, which has been great. If you need a replacement for a trailer I'd highly recommend them. They can do any custom size, height, corner cut (to fit an Airstream), etc. For my Lance they were able to custom cut it so it folds like the original... the only issue I had is that I had it made 1.5" taller and because of the slant of the front of the camper it was slightly too long when folded for the sofa to sit right. I trimmed an inch off the top and bottom and it fits fine now though.
BTW if you haven't done it, my favorite mod to my trailer is actually this one where I converted the (kind of useless) magazine rack to a (liquor) cabinet. It's not as practical as adding solar but it's the most satisfying...
I currently tow a 28ft airstream with a Tundra TRD PRO equipped with the equilizer hitch. I've towed approx 1500 miles in the Appalachian Mtns (not as big as my hometown Cascade range but steep in places) and have had zero problems. We're currently expecting our fourth child and I'm debating on the LC or LX as I love the 5.7L iForce. The LC is rated at 8100 and the LX comes in at 7100 (200s) with the hydraulic setup. I've heard mixed options and wanted to know if you would feel confident pulling that size AS with the LX? Sincerest appreciation for your time.
Markuson
SILVER Star
Might want to include total weight & tongue weight.
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6,000# base 7600# max....900 TW potential problem.
My black rock 22BHS is close in size weight. I’m almost 26’ total length, 6800 lbs loaded, 750 TW. Family of 4 (2 teen kids) and another 100-200 lbs lbs of dog and gear in the rig. With a 2013 LX in Alaska and do just fine.
I tow a 27FB model that is 28' (curiously 1" longer than a 28 model?). For all intents and purposes, it's the same length and weight. From a power perspective, you're familiar with the potent 5.7L and I find it up to the task in the LX.
I like to vacation in mountains and around the Sierra's so I'm no stranger to towing over major passes. Stability wise, when I first considered the pairing, I was concerned with the short wheelbase. That has not been a problem. Stability for the asking even towing at higher speeds (75mph) up and down significant grades. I likewise use an Equalizer WD setup. Key is to keep the ball as close and tight to the bumper (to maximize wheelbase), and ensure enough WD tension to restore front axle weight.
The LC is indeed rated higher. On account of 300-400lbs more weight in options on the LX taking away payload and tow capacity. We know however the 200-series is conservatively rated. The LX stock will stay level and ride with more stability on account of dynamic suspension and damping. The adjustable height is a boon to hitching and leveling. I can't count how many times I've used it to my advantage in situations. It also works great with the WD bars as I can use "high" position to relax the bars when traversing driveways and dips. Lowering at freeway speeds also tightens the bars just when it's needed for higher speeds.
Airstreams tend to have greater tongue weight than quoted from the factory. I've not yet weighed mine, but those that have weighed these models show tongue weight in excess of 1000lbs. I added a generator to my tongue and heavier 6V batts so I'm sure I'm in excess of that. As long as the ball again is close and tight to the bumper, there's no issue and almost no porpoising to speak of.
Note that AHC can be augmented with spring spacers for additional carrying capacity. I've added 20mm of spacers to mine to ensure I can get into "high" position when I want to.
Just got back today from an awesome 1400 mile road trip through Mammoth, Tahoe, and Bay area.
Appreciate the thorough response! Looks like a beautiful setup!
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm feeling much more confident about switching rigs!
