Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (2 Viewers)

[TeCKis300]

There are individuals, including Andy at Can-Am Canada, whom are respected subject matter experts in the RV industry with decades of direct experience setting up travel trailers/AS to passenger cars and trucks, whom don't believe in airbags or automatic leveling. Or at least firmly believe they are a liability with how they are misused. They would say that vehicle attitude is a function of properly dialed in weight distribution alone. If the tow vehicle is not level, then there is not enough WD dialed in. http://www.inlandrv.com/articles/towing_myths.pdf

To me, airbag are more about increasing spring rate for dynamic load handling on the road, rather than statically leveling the tow vehicle. Leveling should still be done via WD adjustment, because that directly transfers load to the front axle, and the vehicle attitude will reflect when this is adequately done.

I've seen some argue that a properly setup bag should see PSI in the lower pressure range, rather than the upper range. That is, rely more on WD, and less on air bags.

One note is that the Firestone kit comes with two separate schraeder valves (one per bag). I bought a small compressor for $100 and installed it where my jack was. Because that only has one output line, I bought a T fitting (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F532PY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to tie them together. If you search around online there are mixed feeling about linking both air bags to one compressor (some people prefer it because it ensures the pressure is balanced, some dislike it because it's harder to isolate a leak or might result in odd handling as air transfers between bags. Personally I've found it takes 30 seconds or so to deflate these so I don't think the small tube lets a significant amount of air pressure move between either bag while bouncing around).

I would be VERY weary of the T-fitting and would highly recommend against linking the bags, as it can create dangerous handling behavior. What this does is create a seesaw, if you will, between the two wheels at the rear axle. Any side to side load imbalances, or turning, will cause the load support (i.e.) air to go to the other side. So instead of two independent bags that stably support the car at each side, a linked bag gives no lateral support as the air will simply "escape" to the other side. Imagine how this imbalanced support may work under emergency handling maneuvers.

 

[TeCKis300]

Dupe

 

[linuxgod]

If the tow vehicle is not level, then there is not enough WD dialed in

I disagree. (Or rather, I don't believe you can level a tow vehicle using WD alone unless your tongue weight is excessive, because fixing vehicle suspension geometry solely through WD means you'll remove too much weight from the tongue.)

If you have a 5000# trailer with 500# tongue weight applied to the bumper, with a normal Toyota rear suspension with a coil rate of 170#, you're going to decrease the rear height by at least 3 inches. (3 inches should be the decrease if you put the tongue directly over the axle - in our case we're putting it on the bumper, which acts as a lever, so I am assuming the decrease is actually more like 4" or more - anyone who can calculate the physics here it welcome to chime in).

If you follow that tongue weight should be between 8 and 15% of the trailer weight, then the minimum safe tongue weight is 400#. That means you can't move more than 100# off the tongue to the front and rear axle. Now granted you'll actually need to move more than 100# because when adding even 400# to the rear some of the weight from the front will shift to the rear axle. But even if you move several hundred # back to the front axle and put 400# on the rear you'll still find the rear height decreases by several inches.

I don't dispute that air bags will remove some of the WD effect. And yes if you run air bags only what ends up happening if you can manage to level your truck is that your entire vehicle gets lifted - the front lifts from the weight shifting rearward and your rear lifts from the air bags. My conjecture is that on a vehicle like an LC or a half ton pickup which does not have HD springs you have to use both. I may be wrong, but I've driven close to 10,000 miles in my LC with my setup at 70-75mph, both stock and with my Tough Dog lift, and frequently forget my 24' trailer is behind me.

I would be VERY weary of the T-fitting and would highly recommend against linking the bags, as it can create dangerous handling behavior. What this does is create a seesaw, if you will, between the two wheels at the rear axle. Any side to side load imbalances, or turning, will cause the load support (i.e.) air to go to the other side. So instead of two independent bags that stably support the car at each side, a linked bag gives no lateral support as the air will simply "escape" to the other side. Imagine how this imbalanced support may work under emergency handling maneuvers.

I've read that before - I think in one of Firestone's documents. In theory that's probably true. In practice I am sure that the pressure change between bags is minimal unless you continuously apply pressure for an extended amount of time - like tens of seconds. The air hose is tiny, and given it takes 20 seconds to reduce the bags from 30psi to 5psi by simply cutting the line at the bag, I am quite sure that even in an extended evasive maneuver (which lasts a few seconds) the difference between the bags will only be maybe 2-3psi. You just can't move enough volume of air between bags through the tiny hose that quickly. Under normal circumstances where you go over a bump and only one wheel gets compressed I seriously doubt it's even more than 1-2psi difference.

 

[TeCKis300]

I disagree. (Or rather, I don't believe you can level a tow vehicle using WD alone unless your tongue weight is excessive, because fixing vehicle suspension geometry solely through WD means you'll remove too much weight from the tongue.)

If you have a 5000# trailer with 500# tongue weight applied to the bumper, with a normal Toyota rear suspension with a coil rate of 170#, you're going to decrease the rear height by at least 3 inches. (3 inches should be the decrease if you put the tongue directly over the axle - in our case we're putting it on the bumper, which acts as a lever, so I am assuming the decrease is actually more like 4" or more - anyone who can calculate the physics here it welcome to chime in).

If you follow that tongue weight should be between 8 and 15% of the trailer weight, then the minimum safe tongue weight is 400#. That means you can't move more than 100# off the tongue to the front and rear axle. Now granted you'll actually need to move more than 100# because when adding even 400# to the rear some of the weight from the front will shift to the rear axle. But even if you move several hundred # back to the front axle and put 400# on the rear you'll still find the rear height decreases by several inches.

I'll write a more detailed reply later.

The concept of 10-15% tongue weight is the static measurement before WD is applied. It's not 10-15% at the tongue after WD is applied. So going with the former interpretation, it's just fine that WD is spreading the statically measured tongue weight among the axles.

 

[linuxgod]

I'll write a more detailed reply later.

The concept of 10-15% tongue weight is the static measurement before WD is applied. It's not 10-15% at the tongue after WD is applied. So going with the former interpretation, it's just fine that WD is spreading the statically measured tongue weight among the axles.

Ok I’d like to understand this better, since in my experience towing gets squirrelly in any wind or at 60+ speeds when I run under 500# on the tongue with just WD (both in my current LC and in my prior Acura MDX). I normally have about 650# tongue weight with bikes in the trailer, full propane tanks, etc.

 

[TeCKis300]

You're not wrong in that you generally want more tongue weight than less. Tongue weight is an indirect measure of center of gravity of the trailer itself which is the real concern. Ideally the center of gravity of the trailer will be ahead of the axles. The further ahead, the more stable it inherently is to sway. Of course, we have to balance the need against too much tongue weight as that itself invites dynamic handling concerns, because it acts on the ball as a lever against the front axle.

I believe in your case, that you're needing more tongue weight to cover some other adjustments that could be made better. Namely more WD tension. What hitch are you running?

Airbags are wholly optional. People have been towing level for decades without bags to level the vehicle, relying on WD alone. That said, I do believe there are dynamic handling benefits to bags giving more spring rate. Instead of me trying to write a white paper here, here's a great read on the topic of how to setup torsion bars properly - Hitch Hints: Setting Your Torsion Bars (44.1) - Blog

Another key thing you can do for additional stability is to move the ball as close to the receiver as possible. It is a among one of the most impactful things you can do for WD and sway. I'm sure you've read much about wheelbase lending stability. It's really about the wheelbase to rear overhang ratio, or giving the steering axle as much leverage against the trailer acting on the ball as possible. The rear overhang is the measure of rear axle to ball distance.

I cut my hitch stinger 2.5", and drilled a hole 2.5" more forward to bring the ball in. Not because I was having any stability issues, but I think we can all agree that more stability is always better. My wee little band saw only took 60 minutes to cut through this sucker! Drilling was cake with a fresh bit on my bench top drill press.

 

[Dan Higgins]

I may want to weigh in on the WD vs air bags (or with air bags) discussion later. But for now I wanted to share some data from our drive over Monarch Pass on Highway 50 in CO today.

The trailer. 2017 Lance 2285 trailer. 6,000 GVWR. Probably would weigh in at about 5,800#. 26.5’ including tongue. Tongue weight before hitch ~750#. ProPride hitch w/ 1,000# WD bars.

The tow vehicle. 2016 LC w/ 5.7L V6 and 8-speed transmission. Weighs about 6500 (sliders, Gobi rack, 285/65 R18 E-rated KO2s. Modest lift with ARB OME 2721 (progressive) springs in the rear and 2700 springs in the front. Distance from center of hubcap to edge of fender. W/O trailer or passengers. Front: 21”. Rear: 22”. With trailer and WD applied. Front 21”. Rear 20.5”.

The climb going west to east today.

• 9.6 miles.
• 6% grade based on highway “warning” sign.
• Beginning elevation 8444’. Ending elevation 11,312’
• Time: 18 minutes.
• Average MPH 32.
• MPG (using the vehicle display): 4.1
• I drove most of the distance in S2. RPM were around 3300 most of the time. Lots of curves (with some scary drop offs) so no interest in pushing the speed.’

The descent

• 12 miles
• Also a sign stating 6% grade
• Beginning elevation: 11,312’. Ending elevation 8,117.
• MPG. 42! Ha ha! Much of the time the display was showing 99.9.
• S2 all the way.
• Used engine compression to try to keep the speed ~30-35. Had to do a couple seconds on the brakes about 15 times on the way down. Again, lots of curves with scary drops on the right so no wanting to let the speed get to the point where I couldn’t quickly get it back under control. Most braking was just before heading into a curve.

 

[TeCKis300]

Came across this that I posted in another thread. Would be an interesting, super easy to install, helper for towing.

Hah, curiously, I went searching for various coils. Didn't find that but found something called SuperSprings SumoSprings. It's a foam rubber insert that fit inbetween the coils. Super easy to install too, and they have various applications for tons of vehicles. They seem well reviewed too!

video - SuperSprings SumoSprings Coil Spring Stiffeners

Pretty well reviewed on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/SuperSprings...F8&qid=1507431714&sr=8-7&keywords=SUMOSPRINGS

 

[LALC]

Considering travel trailers with the wife, we looked at Airstreams yesterday and then peeked in a couple others. We landed on the Airstream 25RB which I know is fine for the LC based on others trailer sizes, but this one we also liked I'm not sure about. The weight seems fine, length is what concerns me because I'm an absolute newb to trailer pulling. What do you guys think?

Grand Design Imagine 2800BH
UVW*5865 lbs
Hitch Weight*575 lbs
GVWR*7495 lbs
Length**32' 0"
Height*10' 11"

 

[Sandroad]

Considering travel trailers with the wife, we looked at Airstreams yesterday and then peeked in a couple others. We landed on the Airstream 25RB which I know is fine for the LC based on others trailer sizes, but this one we also liked I'm not sure about. The weight seems fine, length is what concerns me because I'm an absolute newb to trailer pulling. What do you guys think?

Grand Design Imagine 2800BH
UVW*5865 lbs
Hitch Weight*575 lbs
GVWR*7495 lbs
Length**32' 0"
Height*10' 11"

My opinion is worth what it costs you, but here it is anyway. I think 32 feet is too long for enjoyable towing and maneuvering. Combined with the tongue length and the LC length, you'd have a really long rig going down the road, getting into gas stations, backing into campsites, etc. That's so long you'd be somewhat limited in what you can do and where you can go and you'd have to do some planning ahead to make sure you can "fit". In my experience, mid-20s is about the upper limit of having a good experience while underway. On the flip side, when you're parked and using the camper, the larger the better, so I would not go smaller than the mid-teens for length. Bottom line for me is the sweet spot for compromise between fun underway and fun parked is 16-26 feet. Anything in that length range, a LC will tow fine once you get it set up for your preferences. From there, I would base the choice on floorpan, build quality, construction material, amenities, and having a good dealer.

 

[linuxgod]

I wouldn’t go longer than 26-27’ and 6000-6500# GVWR with the LC. I’m sure there are people who tow larger rigs but unless you’re staying off the highways and towing only in the flat mid west I think you’ll be disappointed with something that large.

If you look at other mfrs aside from Airstream you may find that shorter models with slide outs offer as much or more space than longer trailers without them. My trailer is 24’ when closed but 28’ with the queen bed rear slide extended out.

Keep in mind like a vehicle a trailer is a depreciating asset. Unlike your home it won’t increase in value, and most trailers lose a lot of value pretty quickly. If you’re new to travel trailers, you might want to find something inexpensive used and try it for a season or two before committing to something big and expensive like a 32’ airstream. Also you’ll get a better feel for towing with your LC.

FWIW I bought my 2005 Forest River Surveyor in 2011 for $7,000. Maintenance averages $1500/year and parking costs me $900/year.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Here in Denver there is a place where you can rent a trailer. I believe there are places where you can rent an Airstream. Not cheap but you may learn a lot.

 

[LALC]

Thanks for the advice, guys. Yeah, the 32 I was looking at was the Imagine series and it was only like $32k msrp meaning I could buy two for the price of the 25 foot airstream. Having room for kids and pups brought us over the line, but 32 ft I knew was a stretch. The airstream rentals in Colorado are super expensive, but we may need to do that to see what works for us. We were shopping for a mid-summer trip next year in that area, so may be best to just rent the first go-around.

 

[TeCKis300]

Based on the weight of GVWR 7495 lbs, it should be doable. But you have to ask yourself, are you camping or full timing? I echo the others in that 32' for camping, is a tad unwieldy. At least for national parks and such. If you prefer private campgrounds, there's lots of pull through and longer pad options as you wouldn't be any longer than class-A setups with a towed. The 200-series advantage is its shorter wheelbase for maneuverability. So even with a 32' TT, you'd have an advantage over them 1-ton pickups towing a TT or a Class A.

About the Airstreams, they always list their lengths from ball to bumper. So a 25RB at 25' would be more akin to a 21' in other brands. You'll also want to really pay attention to the external storage on various layouts. Storage is a premium on AS's, some having a bit more than others, but never generous storage like white box builds.

 

[linuxgod]

Thanks for the advice, guys. Yeah, the 32 I was looking at was the Imagine series and it was only like $32k msrp meaning I could buy two for the price of the 25 foot airstream. Having room for kids and pups brought us over the line, but 32 ft I knew was a stretch. The airstream rentals in Colorado are super expensive, but we may need to do that to see what works for us. We were shopping for a mid-summer trip next year in that area, so may be best to just rent the first go-around.

If you're mainly interested in using it for one long trip, I highly recommend you rent one first. At $3k/week, it's probably a wash if you only use it for a week or two. I don't live in Colorado but consider the annual costs of owning a TT:

• Winterizing - $20-25 if you do it yourself, $100 if an RV shop does it.
• Spring de-winterizing, axle bearing repack, etc - $200 to $500 if an RV shop does it
• Storage - free if you have space to park it. By me this is $120/month at a storage lot for my 24' trailer, would be more for a 32' trailer.
• Regular maintenance - water pump is $100 and lasts 1-4 years, tires are $100-150 each and should be replaced every 5-7 years
• Unscheduled maintenance - when you find a leak (less often on Airstreams which have no corners or slide outs), awning tears, roof vent leaks, fridge goes out, etc.
• Insurance (Allstate charges me $260/year)
• Registration ($100/year in IL)
• Taxes ($50/year in IL. In VA you have to pay personal property tax each year on the trailer. No idea about Colorado)
• Depreciation

I estimate I spend $2-3k/year just to own my trailer. My best case scenario is about $1700 ($900/year to park it, $400/year for insurance, taxes, and registration, and $400 each spring to have it dewinterized, axles repacked, inspected, etc), and that's before depreciation or any issues that arise. We use our TT an average of 8-10 weekends each year, plus a ~2 week trip each summer, so for us it's well worth owning vs renting, but for each person like me there's one like my parents who own a popup and pay the same insurance, parking, etc and use theirs once per year tops.

Keep in mind with new trailers, a lot of issues tend to come up in the first year of ownership (unlike a new vehicle). The issues drop off after year 2 and then slowly creep up a few years later (7+). The issues start to pile up after 10 or 15 years until eventually like a vehicle its more expensive to fix them than to trade in the trailer. IMO maintenance costs/issues probably looks something similar to the "boat bottom curve" that a lot of IT systems follow:

Of course all of the above is generalized - maybe Airstream trailers are incredibly durable and well made and don't follow this, but I'm suspect of that since even though the body is unique and aluminum a lot of the components (Fridge, stove, water pump, heater, converter/inverter, stereo, etc) are most likely made by someone like Dometic.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Another data point on try before you buy. We bought our first trailer 2.5 years ago. Thought we knew what we were doing. Had looked at lots of brands and floor plans. Used it for one season. Learned a LOT. Sold it (at significant loss) and went with a different brand/floor plan/style. From hitches and tongue weight to storage to maintenance and then of course what it is like to tow a trailer - all new. We should have rented first.

Floor plans are very personal. So many options. Hard to know until you “live” in one. In our first trailer the bed was sideways and one of us would have to crawl over the other to get out of bed in the middle of the night. The first one was not 4-season. Not that we do camping in the winter but we were camping 2 weeks ago at a location in the CO mountains and the overnight temps got down to 20. Bathrooms. Larger shower or corner shower? Wet of dry? Size of hot water tank? Outdoor shower? Then there is the additional sleeping area. Separate beds or convertible dinette? How much seating when it is pouring outside and everyone is inside? Storage? We like lots of windows. But do you want big windows in the front when your are looking at the road or in the back where, if you are lucky, you have woods or a stream behind you? Or do you want them on the side with a dinette? Or all of the above? Again, there is nothing like living in one at a couple different locations and over a week or so to learn more about what you like and what you don’t.

Not saying you need to rent, but we effectively paid $6K to try our first trailer for one season.

 

[coleAK]

I have a ‘13 LX and pull a outdoor RV Black Rock 22BHS (~26’ total length) all over Alaska every weekend all summer. Set up is stock with a break controller and WD hitch, use in drive with power setting and sport suspension setting. My trailer is ~6900lbs ~775 lbs hitch and the LX (LC) does great but I wouldn’t want to pull anything heavier or longer but then I’m on rural roads and camping areas in AK all the time. I also have a full solar set up 290w panel and an inverter (I also self installed 26-290w hybrid system with battery back up on my house). I looked at putting a solar/battery system large enough to run AC (just for kicks) and it would take ~$30-50k and 800-1000lbs of equipment.

2 years ago I also used my black rock all winter all the way down to -15 and it did great! I had a Lance truck topper 5th wheel rig before the trailer set up and I’m extremely impressed with black rock.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Very cool! A for AC, do you really need that in AK?

 

[MrCWineMan]

FWIW We had a 30’ Airstream that we lived in for 93 days and honestly we had exactly 1 issue, and it was a stupid and small issue that had no real impact on traveling and living in it. I towed it with an F350 diesel abd you could hardly tell it was back there.

While the 200 may not have as much grunt as the F350 I should be more then able to pull it just fine, it has the weight too. Airstreams are super easy to tow and made to live forever. If I ever bought another trailer it would probably be where I go. All that having been said, I prefer to camp.

 

[coleAK]

Very cool! A for AC, do you really need that in AK?

Nice, It gets in the 80s and 90s in the interior and never dark so windows open and sleeping isn’t an option.