Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser

[TonyP]

@TonyP, in my very limited experience the Lance are definitely high quality than "the bunch". Airstreams are classics and known for their quality but I don't have any personal experience with one. I much prefer the floorplans of the Lance models with their slideouts. By "the bunch" I mean those dozens of "manufacturers" that seem to be within about a 60 mile radius of each other in the midwest. Indiana or something. (Lance is based in and does their manufacturing in CA.) The bunch mostly all use the same parts and processes. They change up the floorplans and the decor. Of those brands, we liked the Rockwood Roo hybrid which was our first trailer. But decided we didn't want a hybrid. We moved up the Lance and it was definitely a move up. Better overall quality though the Rockwood was the best of "the bunch" that we saw. The Lance has, IMHO, better floorplans, more/better lighting, good/plenty of windows, etc. And the other thing that pulled us to Lance along with quality was the space/quality you get for the weight. We didn't want to go with a PU truck so weight was important. At 6,000#, our 2285 model is near the top of the list for the Lance trailers though there are 2 that are a bit heavier.

As a side note, when wrestling with the various hitch options I reached out to Andy (can't remember his last name) from Can-AM RV in Toronto. Andy is highly regarded on issues related to hitches, especially with Airstreams. When I told him about my intended setup (LC and 6K# Lance) he said I had nothing to worry about. He said that the Lance and Airstreams are well above the pack when it comes to towability. Though most of their work is with AS, he is a fan of Lance.

I also read on the Lance Owners of America forum yesterday that the 2018.5 models are out. (In the trailer industry the model changes occur in the late Summer/early Autumn and they name those models, YYYY.5. So we have a 2017 model. 2 months later they released the 2017.5 models with some significant changes. (No worries. I prefer to let the changes get some mileage.) So now the 2018.5s are out. Most people will be ordering them now with delivery in the winter or spring. They will probably start showing up on dealer lots after the big RV shows in the Winter. Those RV shows are a good place to check them out.

One other mention is that the demand for Lance is growing. They have actually bought a new building and moved all their CNC and lamination process's to it earlier this year and it added 60,000 sf. I heard they received nearly 1500 unit orders in July alone.

Two more things - which you probably already know.

1. No trailers are without issues. Someone said that as you are towing your trailer down the road it is like putting it through a continuous 7.5 earthquake! And then there are those who take them off pavement. Being a bit of a handyman will help. We had a handful of minor issues. All of which were fixed under warranty. If you go to the Lance Owners of America forum you will find plenty of topics on issues - just as you find on MUD - and how to fix them. You will also find many topics on "mods". Most of these are for convenience or because people have nothing better to do.
2. Your intended use. I can't remember if you travel single or are married or whatever. If there are two of you, having a queen size bed that you can enter/exit on either side is a real plus. Furthermore, we chose the 2285 model because it separates the bedroom and living area. Great when I get up in the middle of the night and can't sleep or when we are entertaining folks and don't want them to see our messy bedroom. But it is a larger model. If it is just you, then the 16xx or 19xx models may be more than enough. They would be lighter and easier to tow. Also, especially with a lift, easier to take off pavement (though these are not true offroad trailers.) If you expect to boondock a lot you may want to look at the solar option and upgraded battery/batteries. We have a portable (Renogy 100x) solar suitcase and I replaced the original batter with a 125ah AGM battery. Haven't used the solar yet but looking forward to checking it out.

I highly recommend checking out the Lance Owners of America forum. You won't be the only person doing that as they consider a Lance. Like MUD, it is primarily for owners, not shoppers, and as with all forums is heavily weighted towards when things break or disappoint or are misunderstood. But you will read about people's experiences and why the like their Lance and what features they like. You'll also hear a number of "experts" say that the only true tow vehicle is a PU Truck. But not everyone. There are other LC owners on the forum.
Trailer Talk | Lance Owners of America

PM me if you have specific questions.

Awesome! Great info! I appreciate it. I was looking through the ads on rvtrader. I'm liking the 2185 for the extra space (I would just pull the bunks out and use that as storage) but the 1985 is looking like a good option too. Looks like I have some reading to do on Lance Owners.

 

[TonyP]

As for cold weather, you may have noticed the small ceramic heater in the lower left corner of the first picture. It can be in the 30's outside and that heater keeps the bedroom area around 60 without breaking a sweat. I only use the propane furnace when the outside temp is going to drop below 30. The ducting for the propane heater runs through and around the water tank area and keeps them from freezing. We were in Gunnison, CO last weekend and the overnight temp got down to 20. We were toasty warm inside and our water was fine. But the "city water" spigot froze so we lost water pressure to the trailer. Good reason to keep some water in the fresh water tank - just in case.

There are people who live year round in the Lance trailers. And some even park them at ski areas and live out of them there. You just need to be aware of what to do to keep water from freezing and have a good power source for the furnace (generator/inverter, solar).

I'm planning on relying on solar for power 100%. I'm going to buy one of those power usage plugin things to see how much power I use on a daily basis and build a solar array to support the usage. For water, I have showers at work or the gym. Gas for heat. The only thing is, I really like air conditioning. So I need to find a solution for A/C that doesn't involve an enormous ($$$$) battery bank

It'll be an interesting learning experience going full time. But the payoff of a simplified life and flexibility seem more than worth it. Especially with me retiring from the AF in less than 4 years.

 

[Dan Higgins]

AC would be tough on solar. I'm not expert but everything I've read says you need to go to a generator/inverter and not even the smaller 2,000 units. We're trying to avoid that but we aren't full time and we don't tend to use it without hookups in AZ or TX or areas like that.

The 2185 does have a lot of space in the back. Lots of tongue weight, though, so you'd want to put some decent weight items in the back to offset that.

 

[Dan Higgins]

So any thoughts on air bag suspension helpers for use while towing? I know @linuxgod went with the Firestones. But my understanding is that they require you to remove the bump stops and they don't have anything to replace the bump stop with if the air bag fails. I would like a setup where you are still good to go when an air bag fails. I would only be using them when towing and I can tow without them. But I believe they would significantly reduce the bucking and porpoising that happens on segmented cement roads, etc. If an air bag failed, I could still tow like I do now. It just wouldn't be as comfortable.

 

[m3fan]

So any thoughts on air bag suspension helpers for use while towing? I know @linuxgod went with the Firestones. But my understanding is that they require you to remove the bump stops and they don't have anything to replace the bump stop with if the air bag fails. I would like a setup where you are still good to go when an air bag fails. I would only be using them when towing and I can tow without them. But I believe they would significantly reduce the bucking and porpoising that happens on segmented cement roads, etc. If an air bag failed, I could still tow like I do now. It just wouldn't be as comfortable.

This is a somewhat irrational fear. The benefit of the airbags is so so so so much greater than the random chance that one might fail leaving you with... the same spring you had before there anyway. I've had bags in my 4th gen 4R, my LC 100, and I can tell you right now I will put them in my 200 come springtime. I've towed just a couple times in the 200 so far with no bags and I can't stand it vs. the feeling of having the helper airbags. Not optional at all, IMO.

 

[TeCKis300]

I'm planning on relying on solar for power 100%. I'm going to buy one of those power usage plugin things to see how much power I use on a daily basis and build a solar array to support the usage. For water, I have showers at work or the gym. Gas for heat. The only thing is, I really like air conditioning. So I need to find a solution for A/C that doesn't involve an enormous ($$$$) battery bank

It'll be an interesting learning experience going full time. But the payoff of a simplified life and flexibility seem more than worth it. Especially with me retiring from the AF in less than 4 years.

Some notes on power/solar:

1) It's more effective to conserve electricity than to generate (via solar) electricity. Many personal electronics such as TVs, DVD players, AV, laptop, etc. - the newer generation of these devices are way more energy efficient. e.g. Large 20"+ tablets over old school TV+DVD player (also benefit of running without 120V hookups). High quality rechargeable BT speaker over integrated 12V headunit/speakers. LED lighting everything.
2) Running A/C on batts is futile, as it's still only possible for a few hours with a MAJOR batt/solar installation. Ultimately, you still have to have bulk energy source to replenish it, so might as well power it directly.
3) It's now possible to run the rooftop A/C with a single compact 2000W class generator like the Honda eu2000i. Enter the Micro Air Easy Start device. I use to have to parallel 2x Honda EU2000i to run my 13.5k btu rooftop A/C. Since I installed an Easystart, I can now do it on 1x 46lb generator. They've been proven to run 15k btu generators as well. Game changer for cost, space, and fuel.

 

[Dan Higgins]

This is a somewhat irrational fear. The benefit of the airbags is so so so so much greater than the random chance that one might fail leaving you with... the same spring you had before there anyway. I've had bags in my 4th gen 4R, my LC 100, and I can tell you right now I will put them in my 200 come springtime. I've towed just a couple times in the 200 so far with no bags and I can't stand it vs. the feeling of having the helper airbags. Not optional at all, IMO.

Thanks. I need to understand why Slee was reticent to do them. But what you are saying makes sense. If I can get rid of the bucking on segmented concrete that would be a huge win.

 

[linuxgod]

So any thoughts on air bag suspension helpers for use while towing? I know @linuxgod went with the Firestones. But my understanding is that they require you to remove the bump stops and they don't have anything to replace the bump stop with if the air bag fails. I would like a setup where you are still good to go when an air bag fails. I would only be using them when towing and I can tow without them. But I believe they would significantly reduce the bucking and porpoising that happens on segmented cement roads, etc. If an air bag failed, I could still tow like I do now. It just wouldn't be as comfortable.

The 200 actually two sets of bump stops in the rear. There's the jounce stop which sits inside the spring (which you cut), and there's a separate bump stop that mounts to the frame that you don't touch. Seems to me the jounce stop you remove is there to keep the frame-mounted bump stop from feeling too harsh. So even if the bags fail, under full compression you won't destroy your shocks or smash a tire into the fender.

FWIW there are still sections of highway (mostly concrete) where I bounce along like a baby on a mother's lap. I believe it's due to a combination of speed, wheelbase, suspension firmness, weight distribution, and crappy highway construction. In some cases just slowing down will help a lot (like the section of the Dinosaur Highway I took just off the interstate on my way into Moab). If you have an adjustable lift, changing the rebound will also help (when I tow long distances I spin the adjuster on my tough dog shocks and dial up the firmness).

The biggest benefit to air bags is that they reduce the positive camber to the front tires. As weight is added to the rear, the front lifts up. As the front lifts up, the front tires add camber (the bottom of the tire leans inward and the top outward), resulting in less tire contact, looser steering, and excessive tire wear. By adding 1-2" of rear height when loaded down, that in turn decreases the amount of lift the front end experiences, neutralizes camber, and results in improved handling.

I've had my air bags for two summers now. They don't leak* and work great. I've been run them at ~3psi this summer when not towing - enough to soften a big bump but not so much that I'm actually riding on them (which would make the rear springs feel stiffer). It takes <60 seconds to inflate them to 30 psi when towing.

*Technically I'm on my 3rd set. The original ones were 10" tall, and when I lifted this summer I ended up buying a different set that was 11" tall. The originals (and the air lines) were still working great and seemed to be in great shape when I removed them in July. The new set worked great and got thoroughly abused in Breckenridge and during our 4500 mile trip until I swapped my rear springs left-to-right in August (long story). At that time in order to remove the springs I cut the airbag line and pried the line out of the bags. Stupid move - it does appear once you've put the bags in that they're in "for life". Pulling the old line out caused the fitting to leak so I had to replace the bags. In the future if I ever had to remove them I would cut the line at the "T" fitting near the compressor and re-run the lines, rather than cut them at the bag. All that said, the bags are thick (I cut one of the old ones open) and I believe the bags and air lines will last 100k miles.

 

[TeCKis300]

The biggest benefit to air bags is that they reduce the positive camber to the front tires. As weight is added to the rear, the front lifts up. As the front lifts up, the front tires add camber (the bottom of the tire leans inward and the top outward), resulting in less tire contact, looser steering, and excessive tire wear. By adding 1-2" of rear height when loaded down, that in turn decreases the amount of lift the front end experiences, neutralizes camber, and results in improved handling.

I'm with you that airbags can really make a difference to keeping the suspension attitude correct.

Just beware that airbags themselves don't really help the attitude of the front axle. It's the WD bars that translate weight back to the front axle. Airbags, adjusted incorrectly can actually decrease the amount of WD restored to the front axle. Much like a tongue jack does to relax WD bars to aid removing, rear bags will do the same thing as it raises backend height. So WD bars should be setup once final pressure has been dialed in the bags.

The vid does a great job explaining the concepts (sorry for the creepy slender man ) -

Peripherally, I use AHC in a simlar way as bags, to actively manage WD bar tension. This is especially helpful for the Equilizer hitch system, which is known for it's stiff lashup. When entering driveways or significant dips, I will put the suspension in high. This has the effect of relaxing the WD bars pretty dramatically. On the highway, as AHC automatically lowers 20mm, it has the effect of increasing WD, for added stability at highway speeds.

 

[TeCKis300]

If I can get rid of the bucking on segmented concrete that would be a huge win.

I'd like to know too. So Cal's broken and rough roads are worst.

I chalk it up to the two vehicles tied together. When the tow vehicle hits a bump, it transfers energy to the trailer, which reflects back some secondary motions. And when the trailer hits the bump, it transfers energy back to the tow vehicle. Sometimes this is all at the most annoying harmonics.

Our short wheelbase doesn't help the issue.

Like linuxgod suggests, speed can really help. Outside of that, bags, dampening, tire pressure, can all help to change the harmonics that the system is stimulated by.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Dang those harmonics! That is exactly the problem. It seems that in our area the wheelbase of the LC is matched (in the wrong way) with the distance between the seams in the concrete. I drive those same sections without the trailer and I still get that effect - except that it is far less noticeable. Uphill seems to be a bit worse than downhill. Slowing down sometimes makes it worse, sometimes better. Changing to stiffer springs helped a bit (but the rear springs are progressive - OEM 2721s - so the firmest part of the spring does not kick in until the spring has set down a bit.) Interestingly, I didn't notice all this as much with my previous hitch (a Hensley Cub) which is very similar to the ProPride but was designed for lighter weight trailers (up to 6K#) and had lighter weight WD bars (600#) but was overall about 50# lighter for the hitch itself. (The ProPride setup weights 195#!). I was also lightening my trailer tongue weight (minus hitch) to try to offset the heavy hitch. That made things worse so I am moving more weight back to the front of the trailer to bring that tongue weight back to 750 or so. Bottom line - lots of things to fiddle with. I'm hoping that airbags may mitigate some of the bouncing.

And, yes, I have seen that video on WD hitches. This is why I use a WD hitch. (Toyota actually recommends a WD hitch in their owners manual for trailers over 5K#.) My ProPride has 1K WD bars.

 

[linuxgod]

Just beware that airbags themselves don't really help the attitude of the front axle. It's the WD bars that translate weight back to the front axle. Airbags, adjusted incorrectly can actually decrease the amount of WD restored to the front axle. Much like a tongue jack does to relax WD bars to aid removing, rear bags will do the same thing as it raises backend height. So WD bars should be setup once final pressure has been dialed in the bags.

I typically max out WD first, and then inflate the air bags. In my experience when the truck is loaded down they will compensate for 1-2" of sag but they won't actually level the truck by themselves (at least when stopping at the 30-35psi max that Firestone recommends). I hadn't really considered how the airbags reduce that WD.

If you inflate them first (to let's say 30 psi), and then add the WD bars, the weight on the tongue will decrease and thus the pressure in the bags decreases (to let's say 22 psi). IMO at that pressure they're more effective at supporting you on bumps but not on actually leveling the vehicle.

The one thing that isn't addressed in their video is minimum tongue weight. They are working with 1000# tongue weight on a <5000# trailer, which is >20%. They reduce the final weight to ~850#, but it's still well over the 8-15% recommended tongue weight. My TT is 5030# with a ~650# tongue, which in my experience is more typical. If I move 300# to the front axle and the trailer then my 350# tongue weight is too little and will induce sway. As you've probably found yourself, the trick is how to shift enough weight to the front axle without taking too much off the tongue.

The other thing they don't really address is how changing the angle of the WD hitch ball, trailer height, etc can impact your setup.

 

[Sandroad]

I'm planning on relying on solar for power 100%. I'm going to buy one of those power usage plugin things to see how much power I use on a daily basis and build a solar array to support the usage. For water, I have showers at work or the gym. Gas for heat. The only thing is, I really like air conditioning. So I need to find a solution for A/C that doesn't involve an enormous ($$$$) battery bank

It'll be an interesting learning experience going full time. But the payoff of a simplified life and flexibility seem more than worth it. Especially with me retiring from the AF in less than 4 years.

Solar can work for everything except air conditioning and that's a "no-go" in a camper on solar. There is lots of good info on solar power while camping on RV forums. If you want technical advice someday on that, shoot me a PM.

For campers, check out Camplite by Livin Lite. There are folks that full-time in them. I have had their CL16TBS for 3 years (but only for occasional camping). Their floor plan web site is:

CampLite Ultra Lightweight Travel Trailer Floorplans & Photos | Livin’ Lite

The independent (non-factory) forum (that I moderate) for the brand is

www.aluminumcamperforum.com

 

[TonyP]

Solar can work for everything except air conditioning and that's a "no-go" in a camper on solar. There is lots of good info on solar power while camping on RV forums. If you want technical advice someday on that, shoot me a PM.

For campers, check out Camplite by Livin Lite. There are folks that full-time in them. I have had their CL16TBS for 3 years (but only for occasional camping). Their floor plan web site is:

CampLite Ultra Lightweight Travel Trailer Floorplans & Photos | Livin’ Lite

The independent (non-factory) forum (that I moderate) for the brand is

www.aluminumcamperforum.com

Right on, will do!

I'm now leaning towards a dual fuel (gas or propane) generator now to run the A/C and as power backup.

This guy has good reviews:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FAWMMEY/?tag=ihco-20

Or just get the venerable Honda generator with an extended tank.

 

[Sandroad]

The

Dang those harmonics! That is exactly the problem. It seems that in our area the wheelbase of the LC is matched (in the wrong way) with the distance between the seams in the concrete. I drive those same sections without the trailer and I still get that effect - except that it is far less noticeable. Uphill seems to be a bit worse than downhill. Slowing down sometimes makes it worse, sometimes better. Changing to stiffer springs helped a bit (but the rear springs are progressive - OEM 2721s - so the firmest part of the spring does not kick in until the spring has set down a bit.) Interestingly, I didn't notice all this as much with my previous hitch (a Hensley Cub) which is very similar to the ProPride but was designed for lighter weight trailers (up to 6K#) and had lighter weight WD bars (600#) but was overall about 50# lighter for the hitch itself. (The ProPride setup weights 195#!). I was also lightening my trailer tongue weight (minus hitch) to try to offset the heavy hitch. That made things worse so I am moving more weight back to the front of the trailer to bring that tongue weight back to 750 or so. Bottom line - lots of things to fiddle with. I'm hoping that airbags may mitigate some of the bouncing.

And, yes, I have seen that video on WD hitches. This is why I use a WD hitch. (Toyota actually recommends a WD hitch in their owners manual for trailers over 5K#.) My ProPride has 1K WD bars.

The airbags do help mitigate the bouncing on bad roads. We have some awful roads in Michigan and towing with airbags is a huge improvement once you get everything dialed in right. As I've posted before, I use an Andersen WDH and Firestone airbags with a <4000 lb camper.

Lost in the "leveling" discussion is the flexibility airbags provide for control of varying loads. The extra spring control gained by inflating the airbags is invaluable when dropping 485 lbs on the rear, a foot past the bumper. Keep in mind the video was done by a company selling WDHs, so it gives only part of the picture.

And, on the question of removing part of the rubber jounce stop inside the spring; even if an airbag deflated completely, it would not leave the spring and leave you with nothing for "cushion" below the remaining rubber. I plan to replace mine each shock change, so if I keep the 200 for half a million miles and put in new shocks every 100K, that'll still only be 5 sets.

 

[Dan Higgins]

A couple questions on the air bags.

First, I am absolutely not a mechanic and to pretend to be would be to invite disaster. So I will need to have these installed. Should I look to Slee who did my suspension upgrade? Or have my local Toyota service department do it?

Second, which Firestones do I need if I have the ARB OEM 2721 springs in the rear with Nitrocharger Sport shocks. They offer 1-2” of lift.

Third, I have an ARB compressor installed under the hood. Do I need yet another compressor for the air bags or can I run a hose from the ARB compressor?

 

[linuxgod]

You need to buy a Firestone 4164 or 4129 kit. The 4164 kit is actually for the LC and is preferred if you already have a lift and haven't installed these before. The 4129 kit is (basically) the same, but the bags are 1" taller and can be used if you installed the 4164 kit on a stock truck previously. The rule is:

• With the 4164 kit, cut off all 4 segments of the bump stop for trucks with NO lift.
• With the 4164 kit, cut off 3 segments of the bump stop with a 1" lift. @Dan Higgins this is what you want to do
• If like me you already cut off 4 segments of bump stops, you can buy the 4129 kit (which is for an 85 Buick), cut off all 4 segments of the bump stop with a 1" lift, and throw away the clamps and plastic spacer.

As far as the installation goes, any reputable shop could do it. The installation takes about 2 hours. The shop simply does the following:

• Remove the springs as if you were swapping them.
• Remove the rubber jounce stop from the top of the spring
• Use a sawzall to cut off 3 of the 4 segments
• Use a file to de-burr the hole in the center and any rough edges from the cut
• Put the bag into the spring, fitting side up. Put the (now shortened) jounce stop back in the top of the spring
• Run the air lines from somewhere in the cabin (or wherever you want to mount a compressor or just the tire/schraeder valve) along the frame and zip tie them securely.
• Feed the air lines over the top of the spring perch and down into the spring area.
• Reinstall the springs. As you do, feed the air line through the center hole in the jounce stop and push it into the fitting in the air bag
• Inflate the bags and make sure they don't leak

If you're close to Slee and they can do it, I would take it there because they are trustworthy. If you're not, but you have a reputable local mechanic who is willing to give it a shot, there's a video at LandCruiser - Firestone coil-rite airbags - Project 200 which shows how to do this. Honestly the hardest part IMO is getting the PS side spring in and out - it's really a 2 person job (one to push down on a ~4' prying bar, the other to slide the spring in or out or to realign the sway bar). I'd offer to help but it's probably not worth the 1,000 mile drive to Chicago for you

One note is that the Firestone kit comes with two separate schraeder valves (one per bag). I bought a small compressor for $100 and installed it where my jack was. Because that only has one output line, I bought a T fitting (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F532PY/?tag=ihco-20) to tie them together. If you search around online there are mixed feeling about linking both air bags to one compressor (some people prefer it because it ensures the pressure is balanced, some dislike it because it's harder to isolate a leak or might result in odd handling as air transfers between bags. Personally I've found it takes 30 seconds or so to deflate these so I don't think the small tube lets a significant amount of air pressure move between either bag while bouncing around).

 

[linuxgod]

double post

 

[linuxgod]

@TonyP I have two 100W solar panels on my travel trailer and a 105Ah AGM battery. We did 2 weeks in CO, UT, and AZ just running on solar (lights, propane fridge, water pump, and propane heater at night). My setup was $600 or so. If you have any solar questions, let me know.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

We too love our Lance, but are looking at changing due to layout change desires.

As for cold weather, you may have noticed the small ceramic heater in the lower left corner of the first picture. It can be in the 30's outside and that heater keeps the bedroom area around 60 without breaking a sweat. I only use the propane furnace when the outside temp is going to drop below 30. The ducting for the propane heater runs through and around the water tank area and keeps them from freezing. We were in Gunnison, CO last weekend and the overnight temp got down to 20. We were toasty warm inside and our water was fine. But the "city water" spigot froze so we lost water pressure to the trailer. Good reason to keep some water in the fresh water tank - just in case.

There are people who live year round in the Lance trailers. And some even park them at ski areas and live out of them there. You just need to be aware of what to do to keep water from freezing and have a good power source for the furnace (generator/inverter, solar).

We have run into this exact same scenerio. I'll also say that I upgraded my LP tanks to 7lb twins versus the 5s that came with this is because we love to camp in the early Spring and late Fall where temps will drop below freezing every night and you tend to go through a lot of propane during these times. I'll also say that it is EXTREMELY important to remember that the furnace is what keeps your black, grey, and potable tanks unfrozen... but like Dan, we have frozen the hose connected up to potable water! Yeah, keep about a third tank in the potable for those midnight runs to the bathroom!

As big as our 21' (actual is 26' total length, as the 21' measurement is the interior floor length) Lance trailer is, the 200 tows it perfectly! I keep the suspension in firm, keep the transmission in 4th, and tow away!