Time to sell my Montero and buy a LX!

[lx200inAR]

I think the issue is that due to the fact that a large portion of 200 Series owners here have LX's instead of LC's these AHC discussions tend to favor the system and it can at times come off in a defensive tone almost out of self preservation to justify owning an LX instead of the LC. Having owned them both, like a few others here as well, I can honestly say that I like both of them for very different reasons but it does at times come off a bit like those who own a LX feel as if they have a superior vehicle (I don't think that's case personally). Some (a few) attack the LC as inferior (AHC vs. KDSS, interior, textiles, etc.) to the LX simply because they want to justify their LX purchase and then other LX owners jump on the band wagon and chime in with their yea's and jeers to further boost their base. All I know is that they are 98% the exact same vehicle and AHC is very polarizing, so choose whatever fits your budget, your ability to locate or whichever you truly like better, but it's never wise to speak in absolutes and some of you need to hear that.

I think the opposite case could be made just as easy. LC owners may be looking to justify spending the same, or more money on used market for an inferior vehicle. I personally don’t think either is inferior, but couldn’t justify spending more money for an LC when the LX is out there for less. But those are just my opinions and priorities.

I’ll direct you to the title of this thread. Why are we even talking about the LC suspension, except that someone jumped into this thread to bash AHC and expound upon the LC suspension that tons of LC owners make their first mod to replace?

I think this thread is miles off course at this point, so probably shouldn’t have even responded this far. I’m also with you, the trucks are 95% the same, especially in the earlier models, so all the quibbling is fairly pointless, even if I Quibble sometimes.

 

[bloc]

I think the opposite case could be made just as easy. LC owners may be looking to justify spending the same, or more money on used market for an inferior vehicle. I personally don’t think either is inferior, but couldn’t justify spending more money for an LC when the LX is out there for less. But those are just my opinions and priorities.

I’ll direct you to the title of this thread. Why are we even talking about the LC suspension, except that someone jumped into this thread to bash AHC and expound upon the LC suspension that tons of LC owners make their first mod to replace?

I think this thread is miles off course at this point, so probably shouldn’t have even responded this far. I’m also with you, the trucks are 95% the same, especially in the earlier models, so all the quibbling is fairly pointless, even if I Quibble sometimes.

To be fair it's more AHC vs KDSS in this imaginary rivalry, and no one is talking about removing KDSS.

And before anyone gets upset at me, check my first post in this thread refuting some of the AHC doom and gloom misconceptions of OP. AHC is an awesome system and without knowing him my guess is it would serve OP well.

I think some of the friction comes from AHC having been presented for years from certain members (one or two of whom I respect tremendously, I should add) as objectively superior to any other setup, ignoring the differing needs of a broad array of users. I pushed back against this narrative a long time ago, and will say I've noticed that stance soften somewhat over time.

Not that I'm saying this justifies the seeming personal insult level of offense someone here takes to AHC praise.

"Inferior" is a judgement by each potential buyer, then eventual owner. Right out of the gate some are going to consider the 20s, all the chrome, and the dodgy amplifiers enough to qualify as inferior. Others will cite the lack of a reliable, capable, adjustable suspension that allows easier fitment of larger tires AND for a higher price, as enough to label the LC as inferior. When I bought mine, top of the list, knowing my propensity to mod anything I get, the lack of ability to go tundra front end with the LX was enough to justify the LC money. As we all know that has since been accomplished and documented. Still, now that I own it, I'm glad I got the cruiser for the more understated and slightly more rugged appearance. And now that I know more I doubt I'll do the tundra suspension! But the LX is a good enough vehicle I likely would have bonded with that in a similar way..

So whatever. I'm technically team-KDSS but don't have much loyalty I guess.

 

[Tex68w]

I think the opposite case could be made just as easy. LC owners may be looking to justify spending the same, or more money on used market for an inferior vehicle. I personally don’t think either is inferior, but couldn’t justify spending more money for an LC when the LX is out there for less. But those are just my opinions and priorities.

I’ll direct you to the title of this thread. Why are we even talking about the LC suspension, except that someone jumped into this thread to bash AHC and expound upon the LC suspension that tons of LC owners make their first mod to replace?

I think this thread is miles off course at this point, so probably shouldn’t have even responded this far. I’m also with you, the trucks are 95% the same, especially in the earlier models, so all the quibbling is fairly pointless, even if I Quibble sometimes.

I paid within $500 for both our LX and LC and before this current hyper-inflation and "chip shortage" non-sense both could be had here in Texas brand new for $8K off sticker all day long at most major dealers. We got $10K off on our LX and I didn't even have to ask, so while it had a slightly higher window sticker it had a much deeper discount. Same year, same mileage, same condition, the LC books for much higher than the LX, $8K more to be exact (I used 2019 MY for book value), but we all know why that is, supply and demand. At the end of the day I don't personally see either as inferior to the other just slightly different yet the same, but some here do. I couldn't care less, it's their money and their opinion and they are entitled to it. What I do see as an issue is a propensity for some here to consistently yet indirectly declare that the LX is superior whenever given the opportunity to sway a new comers opinion and that's why these discussions always end up like they do.

I loved our LX, I wasn't a fan of the joystick interface BS or the oversized, low-hanging grille, but it was a nice vehicle that treated us very well. We drove it for six weeks shy of two years and put nearly 24K miles on it and we got $2200 less on trade than what we paid for it new. I basically paid $96 a month to drive for two years, I can live with that. The only reason we traded it for a Cruiser was because that's what my wife originally wanted and upon first hearing that the LC was going away she asked that we find one and trade and that's what we did and just before the current pricing madness began. We prefer the more subdued and sporty styling and she loves the Terra leather and black accented interior. Driving them down the road I can tell very little difference but the LC definitely draws less attention and we like that.

I don't like internet bickering just as much as the next guy, but this is an open forum and these are the types of things we discuss in far too much detail. I truly believe these petty topics only exist because these vehicles provide little else in the way of drama for us to pursue. It's fun to toss a cheeky jab every now and then and most are ok with it but we should keep it civil. At this point we are just beating a dead horse.

To be fair it's more AHC vs KDSS in this imaginary rivalry, and no one is talking about removing KDSS.

And before anyone gets upset at me, check my first post in this thread refuting some of the AHC doom and gloom misconceptions of OP. AHC is an awesome system and without knowing him my guess is it would serve OP well.

I think some of the friction comes from AHC having been presented for years from certain members (one or two of whom I respect tremendously, I should add) as objectively superior to any other setup, ignoring the differing needs of a broad array of users. I pushed back against this narrative a long time ago, and will say I've noticed that stance soften somewhat over time.

Not that I'm saying this justifies the seeming personal insult level of offense someone here takes to AHC praise.

"Inferior" is a judgement by each potential buyer, then eventual owner. Right out of the gate some are going to consider the 20s, all the chrome, and the dodgy amplifiers enough to qualify as inferior. Others will cite the lack of a reliable, capable, adjustable suspension that allows easier fitment of larger tires AND for a higher price, as enough to label the LC as inferior. When I bought mine, top of the list, knowing my propensity to mod anything I get, the lack of ability to go tundra front end with the LX was enough to justify the LC money. As we all know that has since been accomplished and documented. Still, now that I own it, I'm glad I got the cruiser for the more understated and slightly more rugged appearance. And now that I know more I doubt I'll do the tundra suspension! But the LX is a good enough vehicle I likely would have bonded with that in a similar way..

So whatever. I'm technically team-KDSS but don't have much loyalty I guess.

Pretty well summed up here, I agree with your sentiments.

 

[TeCKis300]

Whether something is better has always been for the individual to decide.

Whether something has more features or functions is objective. It's not opinion that the LX objectively has more. AHC able do more things, carry more weight, fit bigger tires. What is often confused is the interpretation of its value. That is subjective, and for the individual to decide.

 

[Madtiger]

@TeCKis300

“Whether something has more features or functions is objective. It's not opinion that the LX objectively has more. AHC able do more things, carry more weight, fit bigger tires.”
—————————-

There you go again with bogus claims. AHC can tow with the best. Can squat for old ladies to get in and out. I agree 100%. Nice to have if you need those features.

Fitting bigger tires? Sure but at what cost?! The ride becomes horrible with “sensor lift.” Handling gets worst/bad. That is NOT an increase in function/feature if you end up with several severe compromises!! Lol

AHC is not as good in handling on-road as KDSS or Escalades or Navigators. Slow witted.

AHC has less off-road articulation…actually worst when you need it most!! When in high or ultra high mode, articulation drops significantly.

AHC is a freaking nightmare to maintain and diagnose. Range Rover level nightmare or worst!!

Heck LEXUS mechanics are seemingly just ignoring maintenance altogether!!! Skip touching the system at your service intervals until the system fails AND then charge customer $20-30 THOUSAND DOLLARS to replace the whole system!!! Think about that. Most failures happen after warranty. That is how complex it is! No one wants to even flush it because one “oops” can result in THOUSANDS of dollars of diagnosis and replacement parts.

I did not want to blow you up earlier since we were focusing on functionality…but since you insist.

Funny how earlier you said that AHC globes last over 200-300k miles? That is a blatant lie!!! There are plenty of failures under 150k miles!!!! Actually, most fail at this age or before!! In fact, when anyone has issues with AHC, the common question is…have you replace the globes?

The non-functional shocks of AHC also fail within the same range even tho they don’t do much. Go figure.

Heck Toyota factory shocks on LC lasts longer than that!! Weird?!

Objectively, AHC has significantly more compromises than a static suspension.

There is no wide performance envelope that Teckis300 speak of. No magic dust. AHC is made to be a compromise for Lexus owners (tend to be older, less off-road, and tow more because they are Richie Rich). It is about marketing to show that Lexus too has fancy suspension to compete with Range Rover and GM magnetic ride.

Teckis300…dude you gotta stop lying…maybe to yourself too.

 

[Madtiger]

Not that I'm saying this justifies the seeming personal insult level of offense someone here takes to AHC praise.

Actually I think that this started because Teckis300 tried to call me out and took shots at me after I corrected him on his claim of “deep capability” of our transmission. Oh I also got tired that he makes the same false claims over and over again with no one correcting him.

I don’t usually respond to other LX owners pushing his claims much because it is not their fault. I only go after the source of the fake news!

On the other hand, I think that LX is superior to LC in terms of luxury do-dads (Mark Levinson, real wood, more squishy plastic, real metallic trim, etc). LX is just a nice place to be in. I am very open to be critical of LC luxury failings in terms of what you get for $90k vehicle.

 

[NYC570]

@TeCKis300

“Whether something has more features or functions is objective. It's not opinion that the LX objectively has more. AHC able do more things, carry more weight, fit bigger tires.”
—————————-

There you go again with bogus claims. AHC can tow with the best. Can squat for old ladies to get in and out. I agree 100%. Nice to have if you need those features.

Fitting bigger tires? Sure but at what cost?! The ride becomes horrible with “sensor lift.” Handling gets worst/bad. That is NOT an increase in function/feature if you end up with several severe compromises!! Lol

AHC is not as good in handling on-road as KDSS or Escalades or Navigators. Slow witted.

AHC has less off-road articulation…actually worst when you need it most!! When in high or ultra high mode, articulation drops significantly.

AHC is a freaking nightmare to maintain and diagnose. Range Rover level nightmare or worst!!

Heck LEXUS mechanics are seemingly just ignoring maintenance altogether!!! Skip touching the system at your service intervals until the system fails AND then charge customer $20-30 THOUSAND DOLLARS to replace the whole system!!! Think about that. Most failures happen after warranty. That is how complex it is! No one wants to even flush it because one “oops” can result in THOUSANDS of dollars of diagnosis and replacement parts.

I did not want to blow you up earlier since we were focusing on functionality…but since you insist.

Funny how earlier you said that AHC globes last over 200-300k miles? That is a blatant lie!!! There are plenty of failures under 150k miles!!!! Actually, most fail at this age or before!! In fact, when anyone has issues with AHC, the common question is…have you replace the globes?

The non-functional shocks of AHC also fail within the same range even tho they don’t do much. Go figure.

Heck Toyota factory shocks on LC lasts longer than that!! Weird?!

Objectively, AHC has significantly more compromises than a static suspension.

There is no wide performance envelope that Teckis300 speak of. No magic dust. AHC is made to be a compromise for Lexus owners (tend to be older, less off-road, and tow more because they are Richie Rich). It is about marketing to show that Lexus too has fancy suspension to compete with Range Rover and GM magnetic ride.

Teckis300…dude you gotta stop lying…maybe to yourself too.

Damn, talk about misinformation and false claims man. I'm not sure where you're getting your info from but it certainly isn't from ih8mud.

 

[lx200inAR]

I

@TeCKis300

“Whether something has more features or functions is objective. It's not opinion that the LX objectively has more. AHC able do more things, carry more weight, fit bigger tires.”
—————————-

There you go again with bogus claims. AHC can tow with the best. Can squat for old ladies to get in and out. I agree 100%. Nice to have if you need those features.

Fitting bigger tires? Sure but at what cost?! The ride becomes horrible with “sensor lift.” Handling gets worst/bad. That is NOT an increase in function/feature if you end up with several severe compromises!! Lol

AHC is not as good in handling on-road as KDSS or Escalades or Navigators. Slow witted.

AHC has less off-road articulation…actually worst when you need it most!! When in high or ultra high mode, articulation drops significantly.

AHC is a freaking nightmare to maintain and diagnose. Range Rover level nightmare or worst!!

Heck LEXUS mechanics are seemingly just ignoring maintenance altogether!!! Skip touching the system at your service intervals until the system fails AND then charge customer $20-30 THOUSAND DOLLARS to replace the whole system!!! Think about that. Most failures happen after warranty. That is how complex it is! No one wants to even flush it because one “oops” can result in THOUSANDS of dollars of diagnosis and replacement parts.

I did not want to blow you up earlier since we were focusing on functionality…but since you insist.

Funny how earlier you said that AHC globes last over 200-300k miles? That is a blatant lie!!! There are plenty of failures under 150k miles!!!! Actually, most fail at this age or before!! In fact, when anyone has issues with AHC, the common question is…have you replace the globes?

The non-functional shocks of AHC also fail within the same range even tho they don’t do much. Go figure.

Heck Toyota factory shocks on LC lasts longer than that!! Weird?!

Objectively, AHC has significantly more compromises than a static suspension.

There is no wide performance envelope that Teckis300 speak of. No magic dust. AHC is made to be a compromise for Lexus owners (tend to be older, less off-road, and tow more because they are Richie Rich). It is about marketing to show that Lexus too has fancy suspension to compete with Range Rover and GM magnetic ride.

Teckis300…dude you gotta stop lying…maybe to yourself too.

I suspect you don’t care if anyone takes you seriously, but almost the entirety of this post is either false or gross hyperbole.

Quoting tests of the extremes of the LC/LX (RTI and Figure 8) and claiming victories when the differences are within measurement error is a waste of time. In 5 min of research, LX and LC have recorded times within .1 second of each other. Also found where MT compared older tires vs newer tires on LC and that resulted in a difference of over 1 second. These tests don’t reflect 95% of driving scenarios, so not sure what value they have in comparing 3 ton SUVs.

The only thing you’ve posted that could be remotely construed as true is the troubles in finding mechanics to work on AHC. I agree if the purchaser is not the type to do their own troubleshooting/labor, then they should have a very good mechanic at their disposal or an air tight warranty. But if you aren’t in that group of people, then this doesn’t really apply. AHC is not an overly complicated system mechanically speaking and it’s well documented. And the rest items that are different between an LC/LX are not overly expensive to replace. A full replacement of actuators, springs, and globes is in the neighborhood of $1500 in parts. Every other part is the same.

 

[Madtiger]

I

I suspect you don’t care if anyone takes you seriously, but almost the entirety of this post is either false or gross hyperbole.

Quoting tests of the extremes of the LC/LX (RTI and Figure 8) and claiming victories when the differences are within measurement error is a waste of time. In 5 min of research, LX and LC have recorded times within .1 second of each other. Also found where MT compared older tires vs newer tires on LC and that resulted in a difference of over 1 second. These tests don’t reflect 95% of driving scenarios, so not sure what value they have in comparing 3 ton SUVs.

The only thing you’ve posted that could be remotely construed as true is the troubles in finding mechanics to work on AHC. I agree if the purchaser is not the type to do their own troubleshooting/labor, then they should have a very good mechanic at their disposal or an air tight warranty. But if you aren’t in that group of people, then this doesn’t really apply. AHC is not an overly complicated system mechanically speaking and it’s well documented. And the rest items that are different between an LC/LX are not overly expensive to replace. A full replacement of actuators, springs, and globes is in the neighborhood of $1500 in parts. Every other part is the same.

I don’t know where you got the 0.1 second difference. Here is an old thread with the times from the MT tests:

My Perspective: 200 Series LX vs LC, As an Owner of Both

After a number of folks asked, I wanted to share my thoughts on the differences between an 2014 LX and a 2020 Cruiser. Before I dive into the details, I have grown up in and around Land Cruisers. My folks started my addiction when they purchased a 1999 and I fell in love with Cruisers. That was...

forum.ih8mud.com

In sports car realm, 0.5 second difference is HUGE in terms of handling prowess. Now, of course, if you’re talking about 6000 lbs Gorrilla, then this is non-sense to talk about. BUT, remember, who brought up AHC handling superiority and sports car like??!! Not me…so, i am just talking the truth to counteract fake news Teckis300.

Are you saying that LX getting about 70-80 lower RTI score at at high setting is not significant? Measurement error? No.

 

[bloc]

Whether something is better has always been for the individual to decide.

Whether something has more features or functions is objective. It's not opinion that the LX objectively has more. AHC able do more things, carry more weight, fit bigger tires. What is often confused is the interpretation of its value. That is subjective, and for the individual to decide.

AHC also has more… owners waiting a year to do work because the special-sauce fluid isn’t reliably available last time I checked. Yes I’d consider this a once-in-a-vehicle-lifetime supply quality issue but my point is along with the other “more” you do get more complexity and maintenance. Which usually isn’t a problem.. AHC clearly is objectively reliable and easy to own… except right now if you need/want to install globes.

Dealers not wanting to touch it isn’t out of complexity.. it is because it is so reliable they rarely *need* to do anything and they’d rather not touch something they aren’t familiar with.

It is a really good system. But it isn’t perfect, and while I get that no one here says that directly, that is what often comes across.

 

[Heckraiser]

Meanwhile, the original poster runs away to buy a 4Runner.

 

[lx200inAR]

2015 LX Source

MT FIGURE EIGHT

27.9 sec @ 0.66 g (avg)

2016 LC Source

MT FIGURE EIGHT

27.8 sec @ 0.61 g (avg)

And we both know you are trolling comparing a sport air dam’d LX in H mode to a LC. LC//LX RTI scores are much closer in like for like height.

 

[Madtiger]

2015 LX Source

MT FIGURE EIGHT

27.9 sec @ 0.66 g (avg)

2016 LC Source

MT FIGURE EIGHT

27.8 sec @ 0.61 g (avg)

And we both know you are trolling comparing a sport air dam’d LX in H mode to a LC. LC//LX RTI scores are much closer in like for like height.

Yet, in two other tests by MT, it could not break 28 seconds.

What does sport air dam have to do with RTI in H mode?

 

[tbisaacs]

It's time to burn this thread and start over. I hope OP wasn't trying to make a build thread.

 

[CharlieS]

So, are you selling the Montero? Buying a LX? Need any tech advice?

 

[TeCKis300]

LOL, someone's gone mad. In before the lock.

 

[AnyMal]

There are solid points from Tex & bloc being made, and i agree that I do see more leaning against AHC than for but i think thats the nature of the forums demographic.
Ive made my blunders and acted irrationally but ive also been made fun of for extremely mundane things such as a simple preference for a sunroof by complete strangers including a mod. There is a flavor to this MUD for sure and i think it leans into the rugged and fuss free camp. Perhaps overly critically but its not my place to dictate HOW someone wants to think about something. My only principles are defending ones integrity at all cost, and hearing out the truth however ugly it may be. I will also never deny human nature or aggrandize myself beyond it. We all have reactionary emotions, we all care and are passionate to a degree.

I think all thats missing is a little familiarity to keep things within the rails that can lead to MUDs public facing image being upheld WHILE continuing to argue out the details of our specific reality. Conceptually this is a great analogy for AHC and this discussion. Exploring the facets of our understanding and experience together is the best part of bringing so many knowledgeable and experienced people to one place. I honestly believe we have learned more about the system from the conflicting viewpoints and arguments (fans & haters alike, myself included) than the one dimensional praise or fault narratives that go unchallenged. I remember being told im "overthinking" things (a phrase i despise) myself early on trying to understand my issue which i thoroughly figured out and solved and was shut down by someone who actually doesn't know anything about it. (and im not talking about LXinAR, which i consider a knowledgable ally)

I love my AHC (now) but i do always admit its faults and I give MadTiger his credit when he brings up the reality of the beast.
Its added maintenance, stubborn dealers, costly repairs, bugs and odd behaviors are all real but can also be mitigated with proper knowledge.
I drove myself mad fixing mine, have had issues with dealers on it, as well as in its mandatory maintenance. I wouldn't not call it unreliable though or bad in other ways and i do believe most failures are due to lack of maintenance. I would wager, if i were a betting man, that i could even convert MadTiger as well.

But a better or worse general ruling is just never going to work. Perhaps an average of all our relevant pros and cons may show a marginal point victor but realities in use cases will likely override that for the individual. My mother getting in is a prime example. I hate to see her struggle to get in. As an infant we had a Pajero (funny enough for the thread relevance) and she has loved large 4x4 SUVs ever since needing them for the vacation roads in Iran. She is amazed that it can lower for her and im thankful for it as well but mostly for also being able to have a lift built in .

Its not my place to tell MUD what to do but if i can issue any sort of warning being a political refugee from my home country and escaping tyranny at gunpoint as a child, is that as soon as we start silencing people we've lost. Truth or mistruth doesn't have to be validated by ignorance, unless we willfully take that position and ignore it. The irony is that self policing by mud members is the most effective form of community guidance but giving a mob power is only a recursive exercise in majority rule that will equally deter from a wholistic understanding. I consider myself a wise person (LOL) and if i ever want to gain understanding of a concept, i ALWAYS study its detractors merits. There is no path to truth that excludes this consideration.

Thank you. BTW we all know LX stands for LuXury, and LC is ummm Low Class.

 

[AnyMal]

Built out as I am, I pretty much cannot use Comfort mode unless I am offroad. Over 25MPH and it is just too much - too squishy and completely disconnected. It feels like an 80s era Lincoln Towncar going over bumps and dips. But Comfort is awesome when offroad. Especially on washboard.

Sport is great on pavement though. It really does tighten things up considerably.

Honestly though, tire choice has such a huge impact on both handling and comfort, I think it is very wise to test drive a few LXs to get more of a general sense (unless they all have stock tires).

We need to get you some springs if you haven't already.

 

[Madtiger]

BTW we all know LX stands for LuXury, and LC is ummm Low Class.

No argument from me esp when it comes to interior differences.

 

[tbisaacs]

We need to get you some springs if you haven't already.

@1world1love has the rear TT springs already if I recall. I no longer use comfort mode for same reason and I dont think springs would help much. Both of us have heavy rigs and are outside of the useful dampening envelope that comfort is designed for.