The official 1HDT Intercooler thread

[ForealBoreal]

Ok. Im going to give my accounts. Its not going to be popular, But it is what it is. Ive tested dozens of different intercoolers now.

Surface area to ambient is of the upmost importance. A thicker core is absolutely not better. It does increase flow and reduce pressure loss. But this is couteracted by further drag and transfer of heat, the further from direct ambient flow the less efficient "as you have qouted". Take a top mount air to air. Thicker is not better at all full stop. As you MUST fit and run a fan. Top mount ATA's dont run anywhere near enough ambient air flow. Unless your intercooler is 12" x 12" and your scoop open surface is 12" x 12" on a vertical plain to ambient air. But thats never going to happen as you wont be able to see the road. It still wont be as good as a front mount as there is an engine in the way adding to heat its trying to dissapate. Which is why a front mount is 100% better. Its 90 degrees to ambient air flow and has a large surface area away from any excessive heat.

The only acception to this "thicker is not better" rule is a WTA. It transfers the heat transfer evenly accross the core no matter what thickness or size. Providing flow and design is correct. It also incorperates a full size radiator thats 90 degrees to ambient with a large surface area. It can cool extremely well with very little pressure drop.

Qouting some intercooler companies is pointless. ASE used to run their front mount upside down hiding it complete behind the bullbar and said it work perfectly with no direct air flow. As it radiates heat. With out ambient flow stripping the heat away, WHY EVEN BOTHER.

Yeah thinner would be better in my case.
So in the end what is a realistic CFM for my engine, are my numbers correct?

W2A would be sweet but it seriously complicated and enlarges the cost about 3-4x what I was anticipating. Plus for all that added cost for a system like AdamBs running 70% you can get that from an A2A if done correctly at a fraction of the cost.
Front mount is not possible for me.

ASE is very overpriced for some Chinese stuff.
ARE cooling on the other hand would be up your alley. They actually post data which you love and ask for. Have a read, they back up their claims with proof just like your testing.

 

[TheBigBoy]

This is where the lines are scewed. If your talking stock low boost. Any intercooler works. As soon as you start talking 20psi, then 25, then 30-35. It's a completely different ball game. I speak with ARE and know a guy running 1 of their intercoolers - $4400 custom made.

As for your CFM. What boost are we talking?

 

[ForealBoreal]

15psi currently
My grunter1 is good for 20lbs and I hope to take it there at some point after the intercooler is going good.

Post up calcs if you can

 

[TheBigBoy]

Not knocking. Just offering advise. Flow and heat play a big part as this can overwelm any intercooler if its not designed for it. So a 80% efficiency rating on a low boosting vs a 80% efficiency rating on a high boosting is chalk and cheese in comparison.

4.2 litre /2 x 3500rpm = 7350LPM/ ^3CFM = 245
VE 90% at best. 245 x 0.9 = 220.5 CFM
15 psi+ 14.7= 29.7 /14.7 =2.02 bar absolute
220.5 x 2.02= 445CFM

20 psi+ 14.7= 34.7 /14.7= 2.36 bar absolute
220.5 x 2.36= 520CFM
220.5 x

 

[gerg]

CFM is a measurment of volume, not density. A turbo does not affect the engines volume of air ingested, but does affect the density of the air. CFM does not change for the engine.

 

[Adam B]

This is important. Talking about the boosted CFM only matters if you're trying to figure out how much the compressor inlet will have to flow - or anything upstream of it (air box, for example).

Downstream of the compressor a cubic foot is a cubic foot (for our purposes, anyway). The engine can only pump a fixed number of cubic feet per revolution, regardless of how many oxygen molecules are contained within that cube...

 

[ForealBoreal]

Thanks for the input guys.
It's looking like I am going to probably go the same route in dimensions just going to a 3" core and trying to fit the biggest puller I humanly can.

3 x 12 x 12 core dimension is set up for 619cfm
I am going to try my best to incorporate a puller or at least do some tests with and without one to see if it truly makes a difference for my needs.

Centre bottom entry in 2" for the intake end tank and centre exit in 2.5" straight for the outlet end tank.

Bought a race composites STI scoop that I plan on modifying slightly to ram some air through this thing.

 

[gerg]

I remember reading a site comparing centre straight end entry vs the centre bottom end entry for air distribution and it gives you slightly more pressure drop, but much superior even flow across the core, even without and internal baffles. I think it would be a very simple way to fit your piping and achiece better flow. At a 600cfm rating that core shouldnt give you much pressure drop. Sounds really good. What was the pressure drop at 600cfm by the way? 2psi?

If you can fit a puller do it. Even at highway speeds I bet you can net 5% or more effeciency with it. At slow speed there would be no contest. Now depending on your hood scoop size and hood placement it might take a bit of speed to max out the air flow over your core. Taping them little strings can tell you alot for placement.

 

[ForealBoreal]

I remember reading a site comparing centre straight end entry vs the centre bottom end entry for air distribution and it gives you slightly more pressure drop, but much superior even flow across the core, even without and internal baffles. I think it would be a very simple way to fit your piping and achiece better flow. At a 600cfm rating that core shouldnt give you much pressure drop. Sounds really good. What was the pressure drop at 600cfm by the way? 2psi?

I am going to guess 1-1.5psi.

Bell just sent me this back:

- I do not recommend to reduce the Intercooler's Dim. A to less than 3.5"
- except for very low vehicle speeds and high engine output, a fan does not offer ant advantage; it (actually) can be a "negative" by blocking air
- the Intercooler's Performance, in this type of arrangement, will depend (primarily) on the amount of ambient airflow, the end-tank design is important, but of secondary importance

I also got quoted way over what I was expecting to pay for the whole job and then some. $851 for the tank orientation I want and 3.5 x 12 x 12.
Dammit.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Ouch, Bell is not cheap for sure. There stuff is nice but its THAT nice? Say you give up 4% going with a ebay core is that 4% worth $751?

I think in a top mounted arrangement running a 12x12x3 core with a puller fan would be a good idea. Remember on your long flat hood there is probably not a lot of air pressure so the fan will help suck that turbulent air in and through the core.

As Greg said though take 2" pieces of yarn and tape them to your hood and go for a drive at 100km/hr and see how much air turbulence there is.

I can see a fan on the intercooler in a front mount setup causing issues with flow but not on a top mount in your application.

Also if you where to spend $851 on a Bell intercooler I would think a good W2A could be done for less. Then you remove any issues of air flow and fans, just put the condenser in the front with a container that has a good volume of water some where. When I was pricing out A2W systems I was in the $500 range with a Bosch pump, a 600+cfm core, 24"x 12" x 2" condenser and all the plumbing.

 

[Douglas S]

Foreal, I'd seen you mention this (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/TOYOTA-Landc...Parts_Accessories&hash=item35cc1de1ea&vxp=mtr) intercooler in a previous thread. Is there a reason you've ruled it out?

 

[gerg]

Flow over the hood and scoop placment and sizing are not easy to maximise. Chuck a small powerful fan on and all that goes away. Was one of the reasons I was going to go with it. It wipes away many of the ideal problems and also has several advantages of its own especially at low speed. I was going to get a cowl (reverse scoop) and let it work as a giant louver when off boost while not allowing too much rain into the bay, and use the fan to draw air in through it for high boost when I want it. Id have to agree with the ebay coer argument. Even with my cheapo core it had no leaks and never failed at 25psi for extended periods. I doubt id ever go for an expensive cooler unless my budget was unlimited. The gains rapidly diminish for the price. Heck, save the money and get a 200$ 11" 40 amp spal fan

 

[ForealBoreal]

Ouch, Bell is not cheap for sure. There stuff is nice but its THAT nice? Say you give up 4% going with a ebay core is that 4% worth $751?

I think in a top mounted arrangement running a 12x12x3 core with a puller fan would be a good idea. Remember on your long flat hood there is probably not a lot of air pressure so the fan will help suck that turbulent air in and through the core.

As Greg said though take 2" pieces of yarn and tape them to your hood and go for a drive at 100km/hr and see how much air turbulence there is.

I can see a fan on the intercooler in a front mount setup causing issues with flow but not on a top mount in your application.

Also if you where to spend $851 on a Bell intercooler I would think a good W2A could be done for less. Then you remove any issues of air flow and fans, just put the condenser in the front with a container that has a good volume of water some where. When I was pricing out A2W systems I was in the $500 range with a Bosch pump, a 600+cfm core, 24"x 12" x 2" condenser and all the plumbing.

I feel the exact same way. For the amount of money and crap i will have to deal with its not worth it in my eyes.

I want to do a fan test and see if it truly works with my splitter plan and scoop. The STI scoop I bought is quite big, I am hoping it catches lots of air.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STI-2-Hood-...r_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e25f6335

W2A isn't for me at this point. It just complicates things too much for me to want to deal with.

Foreal, I'd seen you mention this (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/TOYOTA-Landc...Parts_Accessories&hash=item35cc1de1ea&vxp=mtr) intercooler in a previous thread. Is there a reason you've ruled it out?

A part of me wants to try it, test it, mod it for the plenum and be done with it. Clint79's buddy from aus put one on with a gturbo and apparently the cooler has worked better than expected.
I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this one.
Threw them an email about it. I may just go with it and start testing for fun.
I don't like how the tank designs on the cheap 12x12x3 ebay ones. I would want to mod them anyway.
This way I can tweak things and see how it affects efficiency

 

[Tapage]

mate down here have on in his 80 series with supra turbo hybrid .. all else mostly stock, and he's happy .. but nothing more than butt dyno to certify how good or bad it's doing ..

 

[TheBigBoy]

CFM is a measurment of volume, not density. A turbo does not affect the engines volume of air ingested, but does affect the density of the air. CFM does not change for the engine.

Why so technical so quickly . Its a given that from the turbo once the air is compressed it travels at the same speeds and overall volume as it did before. But he is trying to work out the correct cfm for the intercooler size. Boost pressure is a element of the IC cfm rating. And its measured on a flow bench at atmospheric pressure. Hense 14.7psi is twice the cfm of a non boosted model.

Now try and work out the hp rated IC qoutes. I think they pull the figures from thin air sometimes.

 

[TheBigBoy]

Douglas S, I had a guy who is driving around Aus with extremely high EGT's stop by (Turbo'd 1HZ, 14psi) with that same intercooler. He was already advised to reduce fuel and did so. I checked his afr's and they where pretty close to correct at 22:1. That same cooler literally burnt and blistered my hand when I touched the output side. It was 100% heat soaked and not cooling a thing.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Douglas S, I had a guy who is driving around Aus with extremely high EGT's stop by (Turbo'd 1HZ, 14psi) with that same intercooler. He was already advised to reduce fuel and did so. I checked his afr's and they where pretty close to correct at 22:1. That same cooler literally burnt and blistered my hand when I touched the output side. It was 100% heat soaked and not cooling a thing.

Question though, how big was his scoop?
The scoops they supply are too small.
Was it sealed to the hood?

 

[TheBigBoy]

Cant recall if the scoop was the same as the 1 in the pic. And yes sealed to the hood. And yes thermal fan.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Cant recall if the scoop was the same as the 1 in the pic. And yes sealed to the hood. And yes thermal fan.

Apparently the new 70 series scoop, patrol scoop and hilux scoops are nowhere near big enough to draw proper airflow. Most people just use a troll or lux scoop from what I see

 

[gerg]

See now I dont quite understand the heat soaked cant touch it core with a fan thing. My 3Bs displacment isnt that far off from your 1hz and at 25psi pushing high outlet temps my crap ebay cooler without a fan did 68% so..... You saying his was worse than mine? Perhaps only with a totally lame fan and a really bad scoop it could be possible, but I think it would be quite hard actually. Your giving me too much credit biggie.

Now air density and intercooler flow is a really cool topic. I must be honest and cant really speak about how boost will affect internal flow. I can say though that it didnt seem to negatively affect my intercoolers flow.