TBI program for a 2f

[Trollhole]

Have been reading some more on this. Have learned a lot.

I updated the first post with some new links. Good reading.

I'm just about ready to buy a burner and emulator. I've got most of those basics down.

Couple of diagrams I found could be usefull.

 

[Trollhole]

The ECU most people use for cruiser TBI systems is the 1227747. This is a good guide on tuning it as well as some bin files to start off with. If your starting from scratch I'd suggest the 4.3 Prom images. Perferably something that uses a manual transmission.

http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227747/


Most of the burning software I have found use a different chip than what comes stock in the 747. Stock 747 ecu's have a chip (2732A) with 24 pins. My understanding this is a write once type chip. In order to be able to erase and burn different bins (the program that runs the ECU) you have to upgrade it to a 28 pin chip (AT29C256 or 27SF512). Moates makes a kit to does this. This is a good article on how to do it. Documentation : Moates.Net Once that is done you can erase and program all you want. You can even stack programs on one chip and buy a switch that switches more than a dozen programs on the fly.

Then once you get a programable chip you can start working on fine tuning. Two ways to do do it from what I have read. You can datalog the information from the ALDL plug on the harness (this is basically a connector the ecu uses to transmit realtime data to a laptop) It only sends info out you cannot program from this connector that I have found) Now you see what the engine is doing and how well the program is working. Once you know what needs to be changed you can take the chip out and use a programlike Tuner Pro and a burner to tweek the program. Then burn it and then pop it back in the ECU. This can take a while to get something you like.

The other way is through emulation. Basically it's an adapter that plug into the ecu and your laptop and tricks your ECU that there is a chip in it. Basically you can tune on the fly. Once you have everything adjusted correctly you save the bin file and then burn it to a chip and plug the chip back in the ecu.

That is all I have right now.


My next step is to buy the programmer and a spare 747 ECU to play around with. AT the end of the day if I screw it up I can just plug the one that works now back in. Most ECU's can be had for less than 100 dollars.

 

[YotaJosh]

Have you heard of Dynamic EFI? DynamicEFI

I'm in the process of collecting parts to try and TBI a 20R, which will eventually become a 20/22R hybrid with TBI.

For the price, the EBL from Dynamic EFI looks sweet (and comparable cost wise to burners, chips, etc), and you don't have to worry about burning ROM's, or running back and forth. You just hook up a laptop and get to tuning.

 

[Trollhole]

Have you heard of Dynamic EFI? DynamicEFI

I'm in the process of collecting parts to try and TBI a 20R, which will eventually become a 20/22R hybrid with TBI.

For the price, the EBL from Dynamic EFI looks sweet (and comparable cost wise to burners, chips, etc), and you don't have to worry about burning ROM's, or running back and forth. You just hook up a laptop and get to tuning.

Yes. I have one issue. It's expensive. And if it breaks on the trail. Your not gonna be able to get one easliy. Having a spare is not a really economical option. If your friends want to go TBI they cannot use any part of it. WIth the other way you can burn chips for anyone.

 

[ranger]

Damn Troll! First the Big Gay build now this. I used to do a lot of Eprom programming back in my Apple II days. Machine code for the 6502 1MHz processor was a blast! (For you newbies (born after 1985) that was the computer that started the PC explosion.)

Anyway I look forward to your write up on this. The 2F I have sitting on a trailer would just love to have TBI installed, IF I can get the current project finished that is......

I thought the Tandy 80 was the first available computer, 1970s era......or the Atari?

 

[ranger]

I can read through this stuff and I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[joeyg1973]

I am still getting a chuckle out of this thread every time it pops back up to the top. SOOOO predicted this was going to happen.

You know I also find it funny that this forum takes out words like fxxx, s***, crap, etc. yet I can put up a smiley flipping the bird!

 

[YotaJosh]

Yes. I have one issue. It's expensive. And if it breaks on the trail. Your not gonna be able to get one easliy. Having a spare is not a really economical option. If your friends want to go TBI they cannot use any part of it. WIth the other way you can burn chips for anyone.

Those are all good points. As a matter of fact, once I get mine running, my friend with a 74 1.5F 40 wants me to do his too. If I invest in a burner and the software, then we could split the costs.

As for breaking on the trail, just bring a spare from a 4.3. The limp home mode is probably good enough to run it.

 

[Trollhole]

I am still getting a chuckle out of this thread every time it pops back up to the top. SOOOO predicted this was going to happen.

You know I also find it funny that this forum takes out words like fxxx, s***, crap, etc. yet I can put up a smiley flipping the bird!

What did you predict?

 

[joeyg1973]

See post 11

 

[Trollhole]

See post 11

My current setup works just fine. It is running rich but other than that fine. AFI stated they would burn me a new chip. My problem is I'm impatient and would just rather do it myself. Most anyone can buy their setup and have a good running cruiser. Plus I figured I might be able to help other people by doing this.

As far as money. If my ECU breaks I'll just get another ECU. Readily available all over the US and cheap. When yours breaks your screwed.

When you have a complete running MS2 you can talk about one compared to the other. So far yours is still a theory. This thread is for TBI programing using the GM ecu.

 

[malcb]

IYou know I also find it funny that this forum takes out words like fxxx, s***, crap, etc. yet I can put up a smiley flipping the bird!

You do know that you can turn the filter off? (No you can't turn a bird filter on!)

The more I read of this thread the more I wish I could use a GM computer, only problem is MS is probably more common in the UK than the GM TBI setup.

Just got a VEMS box to play with as well, much neater than the MS but very poor documentation.

 

[Trollhole]

Looking at the whole VSS thing on the back of the stock gauge cluster.

Question

We know that most are either 4 or 6 pulse. And having this hooked up to a stock ECU would mean that around 30mph the computer would think your going 60. Could you not change the values in the ECU program and bump the MPH up to where it would need to be if you were going 60 in the real world?

Are there other varibles that the ECU uses the VSS for?

 

[cruiserbrett]

At least in the readily available .ecu files, there is not a value to change for that... bummer. would be simple.

Someone with a more advanced hack of the 7747 ecm might point you in the right direction. try the diy-prom board at thirdgen.org

 

[Trollhole]

Well back on this again. My programmer should be in this week.

Will post back up as I go.

 

[CruisinMT]

hey guys so when are the wings and flux capacitors going onto your rigs?

 

[cruiserbrett]

which programmer did you order?

I am going to send you some .bins I worked on to change the base timing and the injuector PW constant. that way no UPS screw up with a missing chip

 

[Trollhole]

which programmer did you order?

I am going to send you some .bins I worked on to change the base timing and the injuector PW constant. that way no UPS screw up with a missing chip

APU1

Also got the G2 switching adapter.

 

[Trollhole]

I've been spending a little time on the hardware side of the programming. I actually pulled the chip out and read the chip and saved the file. Reading it was not as easy as I had thought. Basically the ECM (the engine computer) has a road map that is uses, it's a .ecu file. It's specific to that computer model. If you have the wrong one it will not put all the data from the .bin file (the main code for that specific engine and the program on the chip) in the right place and it just won't run. Kind of like having a map of Texas but being in California. I thought all along I had a 7747 computer. When I tried to look at the data it would say things like I had 228 cylinders. lol. So I knew I had the wrong .ecu file. Had the ECM had a sticker on it telling me what it was would have made it a lot easier. Turns out I didn't have a 7747 but an 8062 which is out of a s-10. Once I had the correct .ecu file I was golden and everything lined up.

Now comes the chip issues. All 7747 and 8062 computers come with a chip that has 24 pins (2732). Problem is they aren't made anymore and if you want to erase it you have to have a UV light and if you want to program it you have to have equipment that isn't very user friendly. The good news most hardware can read these chips so at least you can read what's on them.

What most people do is convert the chip over to a different chip. Problem is these chips are 28 pin. SO you either have to solder the adapter in or I have heard you can glue it in with a glue gun. I'm going the solder route but will have an adapter on the board to where I can unplug the chip with adapter and temporally install it in another computer if I had a failure. Honestly I don't think that will ever happen. When you open the ECM up you will understand. It's been dipped in a resin that makes every component solid and waterproof. The other good thing about the newer chips is they are cheap around $5 and they store a lot more stuff. My $5 dollar chip can hold well over 16 programs. Why would you want 16 programs you ask? Well the more look at the flags and parameters the more I have realized I could tune the computer for many different situations. Say I was on the trail and wanted the engine to not drop below a certain rpm and when it got to that point it would add just enough fuel to keep it going. Kind of a lug crawl situation. Then say I wanted an around the town setting. Where it was all stop and go. Then maybe a highway setting for fuel economy. The program map allows for an A/C input. When it senses the A/C clutch is engaged it ramps up the RPM to a specified setting. You have the ability to specify that setting and if you connect that wire to a switch and set that program A/C rpm to say 2000rpms when you needed to use your winch you could ramp up the motor with the flick of a switch. If you wanted to run propane it would be really easy and the fact you could change your spark tables to have a good performing propane motor. You can even have separate programs for different grades of fuel. If you really wanted to get fancy you could get a newer model ECM out of a early 90's TBI or TPI motor and really have a ton of different things you could do. One being you could have the ECM control an electric fan and the speed. Also some of the later ECM are waterproof and could even be installed inside the engine bay.

So far I have burned a couple chips and even burned one that had 4 programs on it and switched between them while the motor was running. Pretty cool. Now all I need to do is start working on the tuning side and make my program match my engine and then work on all the other things from there.

Stay tuned. I'll have more in the following weeks.

 

[Trollhole]

Bwuaahahhahahaha! Have to admit he has a point Marshall. Inversely, when you were first on that other thread you could not speak that your MS2 visions were going to work, nor do so in simple terminology. Glad to see it is up and running finally - did you do a write up on the final (e.g. costs, parts, etc.)?

Like I said before - I bolted my junk together with a bit of help - but unless it's fab/welding/or mechanical - as far as the computer goes - really just ride in em...when it comes to all the terms flying around - Romulator, is that like a Star Trek thing, or 747, isn't that a plane? I see how little I know - and really don't care right now (maybe some day in the future).

Hopefully when Marshall figures this out - I can stop by on my annual wheeling trip next year and take pictures and get dummy proof directions on how to install a romulator

Next time your in town I can hook my stuff up to your ECM and we can go for a ride or a wheeling trip back up Jims Diveway. By being able to emulate on the fly we can fix everything hopefully in one session.