steel wheels

[landtank]

I use an impact gun on mine all the time. After all these are 1 ton axles :. Being a professional service person, nothing ticks me off more than someone coming up to me to instruct me on how to do my job correctly. That is of course that it's not my boss. I'd let them do their thing and then check the results afterwards and deturmine if you like their work enough to go back next time. But honestly, if you look at those hubs on our axles, a few extra Ftlbs isn't going to do any harm. You just might not get them off on the side of the road with the lug wrench provided in the tool case.

 

[Riley]

[quote author=landtank link=board=2;threadid=1801;start=msg148464#msg148464 date=1083376978]
The attachment is not vehicle specific it's rim specific. The steel factory rims for the 80 are balanced by the hubs while the alloy should be done with the adapter for lug centering. Balancing the alloys by the hub will not give consistant results.
[/quote]

Good points Rick. Given that this guy is a professional service person, why the f@#k is he not using the pin adapter? and states that it's never needed?

Also my view is that impact guns should NEVER be used on the keyed lock nuts, or they can be damaged.

I'll be a good customer and keep my mouth shut (for now).

Thanks again.

Riley

 

[landtank]

What do you mean by "Keyed lock nuts". Never heard the term.

A lot of this hair splitting comes down to acceptable results and acceptable risk. For me the air gun meets both those criteria. Of course I don't run the gun at 125 psi either nor should any of the shops when using it to change tires. After you get home and check your lugs you might find them very close to spec or way off. Depends on how the shop is set up.

Along the same lines is "time is money" issue of running a shop. To be competative you have to utilize cost saving measures because most everyone is shopping price. And a properly set up impact gun saves alot of time without damaging the vehicle.

Following the manual is supposed to give you the ideal results at no risk. In reality there are still other factors that come into play which will influence the out come such as materials used, such as grease or even the tools used and how they are used.

Let us know how they did.

 

[Beowulf]

Riley,
I have had no problems with *asking* the guys to carefully torque the lugs. This is at Sears and Discount Tire and I try to rotate every 3-5k miles. They also don't mind if you hang in the background and watch them though, as Rick pointed out, they won't appreciate you *telling* them how to install wheels.

In my experience, these places use a torque stick & rattle gun to get the torque close. Then they come around with a click-type torque wrench for the final torque. They've always used the correct torque pattern.

You'll be fine.... just ask politely if you can watch and ask them if they would use a torque wrench on the final torquing.

-B-

 

[hoser]

[quote author=landtank link=board=2;threadid=1801;start=msg148732#msg148732 date=1083427116]
I use an impact gun on mine all the time. After all these are 1 ton axles [/quote]

Specified Lug nut torque: ~75ft-lbs
Pneumatic Torque gun: 250-425ft-lbs at 90psi

 

[landtank]

[quote author=hoser link=board=2;threadid=1801;start=msg148842#msg148842 date=1083452688]
Specified Lug nut torque: ~75ft-lbs
Pneumatic Torque gun: 250-425ft-lbs at 90psi

[/quote]


And your point?

 

[hoser]

[quote author=landtank link=board=2;threadid=1801;start=msg148732#msg148732 date=1083427116]
But honestly, if you look at those hubs on our axles, a few extra Ftlbs isn't going to do any harm. You just might not get them off on the side of the road with the lug wrench provided in the tool case.
[/quote]

Sure the hubs might take it, but by over-torquing the lug nuts, you're overstressing the studs. Have you seen broken studs before? What do you think is the cause? Too much torque will stretch the studs beyond its point of "elasticity." Nuts loosen and fall off.

Is 350 ft-lbs what you consider a "few ft-lbs extra?" that's about 5 times the specified amount.

 

[landtank]

No I've never broken a stud and what the gun is rated for is NOT what is being applied. The rating of the guns awre a pie in the sky number and in my EXPERIENCE don't correlate to what you would think they would. My gun is rated for 800 ftlbs of torque yet I was unable to remove a bolt tightened to 304 :-[ and had it running at 125 psi off of a 1\2" hose.

 

[hoser]

Perhaps you have more experience wrenching than I do but I don't see how anybody could accurately torque a lug nut with a gun when it can jump +50ft-lbs in just a couple of seconds.

Those studs might not break then and there when you torqued it with your 800ft-lb gun but down the road is when it usually happens.

If you are working/running a shop you may just want to read this.
http://www.normarkindustries.com/LooseLugNuts6.25Million.htm

 

[IdahoDoug]

As someone who changes my wheels twice a year for winter/summer wheels I'll suggest a little care on each change goes a long ways. Japanese makes tend to use "softer" lugs for more lug elasticity and long life (vs harder and brittle lugs), which can be damaged easily by careless overtightening. After years of trusting a shop in my town to do this, I discovered one day I had two stripped lugs on the rears and another going on the front when I rotated them myself. Fortunately, I was about to do the axle service, so I replaced all 24 lugs and then bought winter rims so I could do the winter/summer changeovers myself.

Riley: Unless I missed something completely, Rich quotes a TSB stating all Toyota wheels should be balanced using the cone method. Then a couple posts later you seemed to express that you interpreted the TSB as specifying the "pin" adapter meaning balancing on the lugnut holes, NOT the center hole. I feel you should have them balanced using the center hole.

DougM

 

[Rich]

The TSB I quoted is all about using the Haweka adapter, which has also been referred to in this topic as a pin adapter. The TSB says to use it when balancing all 5 and 6 lug Toyota wheels.

I believe the underlying concern is that using the typical style of balancer mounting adaptors supplied by the balancer manufacturer is not always sufficient to ensure that the wheel is mounted concentric and perpendicular to the balancer spindle. I believe that the Haweka adpator helps ensure that the wheel is mounted concentric and perpendicular to the spindle. I am not certain that hub centric versus lug centric is a factor in Toytota's specification to use this adaptor.

I do not think that Toytota intends that the lugs ensure that my wheels are mounted centric to the hub. My basis is that once fully mounted, only the flat washer of the lugnuts is contacting the wheel. The portion of the lug nut that enters the lug hole does not appreciably contact the inner surface of the lug hole. If anybody wants to check this out for themselves, go out to your truck and loosen and remove a single lug nut. My studs are clean with no corrosion. Once loosened I can remove the lug nut by hand, and observe that there is no contact with the wheel that would center the wheel on the hub.

I believe what is properly called the pilot hole, which is the large central hole in the wheel, is what is supposed to center the wheel on the hub.

In order for the lug nuts to be effective in accurately centering the wheel, I believe both the lug holes in the wheel and the lugnuts themselves would need to be tapered. Otherwise, I think the minimal clearances required to ensure accurate centering would result in a wheel that would be extremely difficult to install.

 

[ppc]

Not sure of 91/92 models but the 93/94 use tapered lug nuts and the 95-97 use a washer and flat seat lug nuts. I would think that the later are hub centric. On my 94 when the tire shop installs the wheels they don't seem to get them properly centered and I get a wobble. If I backoff the nuts and evenly tighten them while grabbing the tire and shaking I never have had that problem.

 

[cruiserdan]

I ALWAYS use the "pin plate" for my wheels (with conical seats), both steel and alloy. Cones will damage the center bores, particularly on the steel wheels. In the case of shank-type alloys(95-97) the center cone often does the job just fine.


D-

 

[Riley]

Well here's my update from my steel wheels & new tires installation saga -

The tires were already mounted and balanced when I got to the tire shop on Saturday morning. I had dropped off the tires on Friday morning heading to work. As mentioned above, the guy didn't use the adapter. Also thanks Rich for clarifying about the TSB, I had correctly assumed that when you quoted the "cone and flange" that was in regards to the adapter. It makes sense to me because the OEM wheels have those funny lips in the pilot holes and I can see that it might be hard to get it square on the machine.

Everybody at the tire shop was real friendly and we had a good time shooting the breeze as I waited for them to pull off my LTX tires and alloy rims and "throw" on the MTRs on the truck. I did mention to the guy installing if he would take it easy on the "wheel locks" when using the impact gun (sorry up above I incorrectly called them locking lug nuts). I was inside paying when the guy finished so I never saw if he hand torqued them.

I had my utility trailer there to take home the alloys and LTX and I was throwing them into the trailer when the manager came outside. Note I didn't bother to swap out the spare since the tires were likely coming back off in a couple of days. Anyway I was about to throw the MTR spare into the trailer when he said "Hey I forgot to tell you that one of your new rims was bent!” They had marked it and this was the tire I was just going to put in the trailer.

We discussed this for a bit and he said that the installer guy (same chap I debated the pin adapter with) noticed the rim not spinning straight when he was balancing it. I thought to myself that one of the rims could have gotten banged by UPS in transit.

I questioned him and asked – “perhaps the rim wasn’t seated squarely on the machine ?”. His response was “No, what’s_his_name really knows what he’s doing and the rim was bent”.

Not much I could do so off I went on my way heading for home. Too bad I wasn’t there during the balancing session because I would have loved to see that rim spun up to see for myself.

I still have a hunch that the rim was not properly centered with the cone and that’s what the issue was. I couldn’t see any visual damage on the rim.

Sunday I took that tire and installed it on the front passenger side and took the truck for another highway drive. I couldn’t notice any difference in how it handled or any vibration. They had said if you do run it, run it on the rear. I figured I wanted worse case so I put it on the front. Also when changing tires I checked the torques on all lug nuts. They seemed either just fine at 106? Ft/lbs or a little on the light side at perhaps 80 or so.

Anyway I’m thinking of taking the tire/rim to the local dealer and have them balance it using the correct method and also check the rim to see if it’s bent.

I guess my next question is, with a slightly bent rim, would I feel it driving?

Is it reasonable to assume that an “expert tire installer” could mistaken a poorly mounted rim on the balancer, for a bent rim?

Riley

 

[cruiserdan]

Bent, my arse.........

You picked them up and hefted them, no? you are likely correct, poor installation on the balancer.........


D-

 

[ppc]

I would have had them put it back on the balancer so I could see it myself. I think it would be easy to spot a bent rim as one edge should stay straight versus one that was misaligned on the machine where both edges should vary.

 

[Riley]

Yep, they are fawking heavy. After debating the balancing method with the guy in the back, I'm really hoping to see for myself at the dealer that it's straight and true and then do some educating of a "professional tire balancer". I'm thinking a copy of the TSB would come in handy if I could dig it up.

When he was looking at the run-out I think he was just looking at the one edge. I would guess it's hard to eye ball that outside edge as there is nothing to reference it against ( I don't think anyway). PPC - that was my exact thought as well.

Oh Dan, welcome back

 

[IdahoDoug]

Bent rim, eh? That's often tire guy speak for "It wouldn't balance right so I'd better cast the heavy shadow of doubt on this job so it's not considered my fault". That way, ANY subsequent shimmy, etc you come in complaining about they've preloaded the reason for it - your rim. I'm guessing when you get them all on there will be some issue they're covering up. But I'm a skeptic when it comes to this stuff.

I'd have it mounted on another shop's machine and spun so you can see for yourself. You'd be fairly hard pressed to bend a rim in shipping without severe package damage, plus obvious damage to the metal rim itself. If it was shipped mounted to a tire, I can see no way to bend it in transit unless UPS backed a Boeing over it - heh.

DougM

 

[e9999]

OK, to resurrect this old thread, seems like the consensus is that both OEM alloys and steelies should be hubcentric, but then I read above that CDan seems to say that his steelies do not contact the hub, which as he says should mean definitely not hubcentric!
So, which is it now for steelies?
I'd like to know if I can use aftermarket lugcentric steelies safely or not!
TIA
Eric

 

[Gumby]

My .02

My students torque the lug nuts every time with a torque wrench. They didn't used to. I've had too many wheels come loose, including one this weekend I have to go look at. I had an advanced student install the wheel and I bet he was "too good" to use the torque wrench. i have torque sticks, but they do not insure against too loose, just too tight and I have had problems.

My 95 alloys will balance on my balancer, but are a PIA to get straight. Most Toyota rims will not. I'm in the market for an adapter.

I just bought a set of Tundra steelies to mount my old GY T/As on for my T-100. Anybody know if they will fit on the Cruiser, or will I have to take the time to find out for myself?
They have a lot of offset. They didn't clear the high steer on the D44 where stock 60 rims had no problem. There's no way they will work on the 40.

No way the steelies will balance with a cone, either.