You aren’t bypassing it, you just adding a switch to provide direct power from the battery. If you think it’s simple, then by all means go ahead and rebuild your harness.
Starter Problem need advice (1 Viewer)
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You aren’t bypassing it, you just adding a switch to provide direct power from the battery. If you think it’s simple, then by all means go ahead and rebuild your harness.
- Thread starter
- #42
I have the parts to replace the terminal harness and the main 2 wires of the harness to the neutral safety switch. I also have a new terminal harness and repair wire for the starter connector. I can use the old starter connector to build a jumper/bypass wire for the future, like the one you built.
There are several of us from rising sun that have now had similar issues and have been trying to chase solutions. It seems to be common but to my research so far nobody has been able to show what the root cause of the issue actually is. For some it is the NSS or key switch, but for some, even with those items replaced there is still an issue. What usually ends up happening is folks bypass the issue using the ford solenoid or a starter button or something.
My backup right now is a couple alligator clip leads so if I no start and it doesn’t start within 20 or so key cycles I can jump out, disconnect the signal wire from the starter solenoid, connect one end of the alligator lead, and with the key on, touch the battery positive with the other end of the alligator lead. This provides an instant good strong start. It’s not a starter problem.
@Hulk
@Inukshuk
@largeone
@use2bn83
Would like to see this one figured out!
My backup right now is a couple alligator clip leads so if I no start and it doesn’t start within 20 or so key cycles I can jump out, disconnect the signal wire from the starter solenoid, connect one end of the alligator lead, and with the key on, touch the battery positive with the other end of the alligator lead. This provides an instant good strong start. It’s not a starter problem.
@Hulk
@Inukshuk
@largeone
@use2bn83
Would like to see this one figured out!
alia176
SILVER Star
Well said, i have done the same thing and not a single starting issue since this mod was done few years back.
Cmon now. How about some basic diagnostics? There are only a handful of components in this circuit.
I understand that bypassing the circuit might be easier than actually trying to find the issue, but that's not how I roll. I like to fix things, not put band aids on stuff.
And yes, it is a bypass no matter how you look at it.
It's often not the component itself but the wiring. Basic physics demonstrates the impacts of resistance on a circuit. Many of these types of situations occur after a period of driving, when the engine is hot, we know that heat increases resistance in circuit which impacts the power output. Sometimes it's just enough to prevent the starter from firing.
After 30 years, wire's corrode, sometimes break or melt together, protective wire jackets wear away etc all contributing to increase circuit resistance.
The solution as mentioned previously is to physically replace the wires in the entire curcuit which include the main engine harness. Something that is generally not feasible in either in skill, time, money or whatever combo.
Again, that's all theoretical until you get into the circuit with a meter and do some diagnostics. At this point there is no empirical evidence to go by, only guesses.
Most of us have used meters to make our conclusions. So YOU are guessing, I have my empirical evidence.
And no what I stated was not theory, that's a proven fact of physics. Whether it occurs on your 80 or any other is up to you to determine.
Explain what is specifically being "bypassed" by adding a relay? You keep using this word, not sure you understand what it means.
I have resisted going the FORD solenoid route for years. At this juncture, I am happy with my FORD solenoid fix and it has been working flawlessly and it fires right up every time no matter what the condition is. My rig is primarily for offroad use and i can't afford for it to have a no start episode while i am on the trail. In the past, i would keep the rig running between obstacles afraid it won't start back up again and blocking traffic for some silly no start issues. If my 80 is a garage queen, that could be a different story all together and i would be willing to spend the time and money without doing the "bypass". Someone with a pristine low mileage 97 triple lock might disagree with me and happy to actually troubleshoot the issue with a OE fix.
LOL. You're adding a relay that applies battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid. That bypasses the entire starter circuit, depending where the relay is attached. You're bypassing fusible link AM1, the AM1 fuse, the ignition switch, and the NSS. Any one of those could be the issue, as well as the interconnects.
Do what you want. It's your truck and as long as I don't have to deal with it I frankly don't really care what you do. Personally, I can't work that way.
Thank you Subzali for bringing this thread up to me. I think the "higher resistance" in the signal wire can be negatively affected by the strength of the battery as well. I had this intermittent starting problem when I was running a dual battery system and I believe my main starting battery was not happy with the setup (either being overcharged or not charged enough). As soon as I removed my dual battery setup and got a new starting battery I have not had the issue as often. If I let my truck sit for a while without driving, I can have a temporary issue, but holding the key in the start position allows it to start. I will also start immediately if a put a jump pack on the battery. So, I think many people have re-built their starters and the starter was not the issue. The starter just needs a strong signal to start, whether that be directly from the battery with an additional solenoid, or by having a STRONG battery.
I too, have built a jumper just in case I need to bypass as @subzali mentions above...I have yet to have to use it because I always try my jump pack first. My jump pack is built to start my Diesel truck, so it will start just about anything!!!
I too, have built a jumper just in case I need to bypass as @subzali mentions above...I have yet to have to use it because I always try my jump pack first. My jump pack is built to start my Diesel truck, so it will start just about anything!!!
From reading the entire thread, I would also add that a battery sitting at 12.5V is not fully charged and could be part of a problem. A good battery should sit for a long time at 12.6V. A battery sitting at 12.6V could also be bad under load. So, make sure you have a good battery. If you can add a small jump pack and start, then you could have a battery issue.
Also, if this is happening to you when your truck is warm, the first thing I would try would be to move your shifter out of Park and back to park to ensure your transmission selector switch is actually in a position that would allow starting. Then move to the battery, then to the solenoid.
Also, if this is happening to you when your truck is warm, the first thing I would try would be to move your shifter out of Park and back to park to ensure your transmission selector switch is actually in a position that would allow starting. Then move to the battery, then to the solenoid.
I would encourage you to leverage the internet to educate yourself before making asinine comments in the future. Read the thread I linked earlier and you'll understand how nothing is bypassed and how everyone is actually wiring in their solenoid/relay as the factory wiring is ALL still used and leveraged (not bypassing fusible link, fuses, NSS, ignition, etc).
You're right we can all do things the way we want, some of us choose to do it smarter while others "can't work that way."
I replaced all the big wires in the starter circuit with new, cleaned out the plug to the NSS, replaced the battery, replaced the starter, replaced the bloody ignition switch. Did not fix the problem. My Ford relay with the starter button on my dash has fixed the problem 100%. One of the guys in the Rising Sun said, "Now you're the previous owner" which stung a bit, but it never fails to start.
The first time I ran this problem down, it was the NSS and was very easy to diag because the truck would start in neutral but not park. I pulled the NSS apart and cleaned up the contacts and it’s been good for 90k miles.
My current one is a botched plunger in a “new” reman Toyota starter. I have a plunger/contacts kit. I do have a kind of significant voltage drop in the solenoid trigger wire (small wire). At key start position I’m seeing about 11.2V so there is a problem, probably corrosion somewhere, upstream that is causing approximately 1.4v drop. So it may be a combination of 2 issues. However, my old backup starter works great with no issues.
In my opinion, a ford solenoid is overkill for solving this problem, unless you’re truly bypassing the entire factory starter mounted solenoid. Running a small fender mounted 10a spst relay for the trigger wire is less cumbersome to wire, smaller, and probably more reliable if you buy a nice one.
In the case where there is excessive voltage drop in the trigger wire, a small relay is a bit more forgiving to having low coil voltage. So, you could probably use the OE wire to trigger the relay and switch a fused line from battery to starter if that makes sense.
Anyhow there are many failure modes here. Proper diagnosis will help determine the best path forward.
Whatever solves the problem without harming reliability is a win in my book.
My current one is a botched plunger in a “new” reman Toyota starter. I have a plunger/contacts kit. I do have a kind of significant voltage drop in the solenoid trigger wire (small wire). At key start position I’m seeing about 11.2V so there is a problem, probably corrosion somewhere, upstream that is causing approximately 1.4v drop. So it may be a combination of 2 issues. However, my old backup starter works great with no issues.
In my opinion, a ford solenoid is overkill for solving this problem, unless you’re truly bypassing the entire factory starter mounted solenoid. Running a small fender mounted 10a spst relay for the trigger wire is less cumbersome to wire, smaller, and probably more reliable if you buy a nice one.
In the case where there is excessive voltage drop in the trigger wire, a small relay is a bit more forgiving to having low coil voltage. So, you could probably use the OE wire to trigger the relay and switch a fused line from battery to starter if that makes sense.
Anyhow there are many failure modes here. Proper diagnosis will help determine the best path forward.
Whatever solves the problem without harming reliability is a win in my book.
alia176
SILVER Star
In the case where there is excessive voltage drop in the trigger wire, a small relay is a bit more forgiving to having low coil voltage. So, you could probably use the OE wire to trigger the relay and switch a fused line from battery to starter if that makes sense.
Agreed, a large solenoid for this application is overkill. I'm using a 50a SPST relay to bring full power to the starter solenoid. This too is overkill for the application but I really wanted ring terminals for connections, vs spade terminals.
As mentioned previously, this mod does NOT bypass the NSS. In fact, it doesn't bypass anything. This relay is inserted between the trigger wire and the starter solenoid connector. All interlocks have to be proven after the key is turned to the starting position. When the trigger wire becomes "live", this energized the SPST relay, thereby, bringing full voltage to the starter solenoid. Ok, technically I'm bypassing the fusible link by using a fused wire to feed this circuit. I feel so ashamed now......
Agreed, a large solenoid for this application is overkill. I'm using a 50a SPST relay to bring full power to the starter solenoid. This too is overkill for the application but I really wanted ring terminals for connections, vs spade terminals.
As mentioned previously, this mod does NOT bypass the NSS. In fact, it doesn't bypass anything. This relay is inserted between the trigger wire and the starter solenoid connector. All interlocks have to be proven after the key is turned to the starting position. When the trigger wire becomes "live", this energized the SPST relay, thereby, bringing full voltage to the starter solenoid. Ok, technically I'm bypassing the fusible link by using a fused wire to feed this circuit. I feel so ashamed now......
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Did you replace the terminal at the solenoid? That has completely solved my problem after I did pretty much everything else.
Your diagnostic, which I proposed and we discussed on the Rising Sun forum, supports this theory.
This horse has been beaten so much and the terminal is so inexpensive. I’d like to see everybody first replace that terminal connector.
Didnt work for me.
- Thread starter
- #59
Whelp, I installed the new terminal housings on the truck and the wire ends that go into the terminal housings (at the starter and NSS). When I cut the wires to the neutral safety switch to put on the new terminal wires, I saw corrosion in the wire. As show in my previous pics, the corrosion was not visible in the wire ends, but there was definite corrosion throughout the wire. Chances are, the corrosion goes upstream... I also built a jumper/bypass, emergency wire like @JoeCova referenced in one of his old posts just in case. So that is probably the gremlin that torments me - wiring corrosion.
So for a permanent, reliable solution; I can do the Ford solenoid (I haven't looked at that yet), or replace the main engine wire? <sigh>
So for a permanent, reliable solution; I can do the Ford solenoid (I haven't looked at that yet), or replace the main engine wire? <sigh>
@jonheld
FYI I was not seeing voltage drop at the terminal because when I disconnected the terminal to test the voltage, my probe was making good contact with the terminal.
But when the terminal was reconnected, the age loss of springiness combined with some dielectric grease and dirt in the connection was enough to cause poor contact so you hear the solenoid ”click”, but it did not press out far enough against the spring to engage the starter contacts when hot. Too much resistance electrically when hot.
FYI I was not seeing voltage drop at the terminal because when I disconnected the terminal to test the voltage, my probe was making good contact with the terminal.
But when the terminal was reconnected, the age loss of springiness combined with some dielectric grease and dirt in the connection was enough to cause poor contact so you hear the solenoid ”click”, but it did not press out far enough against the spring to engage the starter contacts when hot. Too much resistance electrically when hot.
