Stalling not just in High, Hot, & Heavy (1 Viewer)

[Pskhaat]

It is the *50160 BTW: Engine shutting off during long trips.

 

[OEMGUY0720]

Bumping this thread again, which is the right fuel pump for a 2006?

1. Which fuel pump? The P/N is 23220-50160 for the new one? There is another listed from 1998-2006 of P/N 23221-74110 or also P/N 23221-66040? Which one?
2. What other parts are needed to do this job? Seals? Clamps? Are there other things I'll need than what come with the pump?

For 2006-2007 LC/LX, the fuel pump part # 950-0210 is the one I used. The o-ring seal is included in the kit. Clamps are all reusable.

Since the replacement, the truck have had no problems nor symptoms pertaining to stalling.

 

[nagor]

@Pskhaat @ OEMGUY0720 how is it going guys with pumps? I have a similar issue: sometimes it stalls after 1 hr of driving on a highway and then ascending from 2k to 8k altitude. I stop the engine on a viewpoint parking, walk around about 10 mins, they try to kick it off, it starts, burps and stalls. No gas smell or something unusual. As far as I can tell it only happens sometimes after climbing high hills. I then wait about 10-20 mins and start it with no issue. Never stalled when driving though. It's 2007 LX470 with 150k onboard. I think I will replace the pump with #23220-50160


Thoughts? Warnings?

 

[OEMGUY0720]

Go for it. Mine will turn 2 years in less than a month and had no issues or whatsoever, even on a 210°F coolant temp I experienced a few days ago (122°F outside temp with 8% humidity). So I guess it’s holding up pretty well.

 

[2001LC]

@Pskhaat @ OEMGUY0720 how is it going guys with pumps? I have a similar issue: sometimes it stalls after 1 hr of driving on a highway and then ascending from 2k to 8k altitude. I stop the engine on a viewpoint parking, walk around about 10 mins, they try to kick it off, it starts, burps and stalls. No gas smell or something unusual. As far as I can tell it only happens sometimes after climbing high hills. I then wait about 10-20 mins and start it with no issue. Never stalled when driving though. It's 2007 LX470 with 150k onboard. I think I will replace the pump with #23220-50160


Thoughts? Warnings?

Classic sign (after climbing hill, as you let off gas pedal. It dies!) in the 06-07, of a bad fuel pump.

 

[nagor]

Today replaced the pump (Denso 950-0210 fits perfectly, runs amazing, looks identical to OEM, o-ring included in the package, all other stuff seems reusable), fuel pump tank seal (Toyota 77169-33020), fuel filter under the hood (Toyota 23300-50090). Set a reminder in 2 years to post here how good it goes. Or bad whichever comes first The installation process is pretty straightforward using FSM. The hardest part was to take off the rear seats and clean off the carpet and tank seal hole.

 

[nagor]

ok. So I will kick this can again. Today I had a trip to the same place I used to stall. I call it a "vortex place" since there my truck dies. Ok, to be fair it had stalled a couple of other places too. But I can bet a hundred it would stall there. And the truck is always good in other places Never stalled when driven. But the symptoms are the same. So today it happened again.

With a brand new just replaced fuel pump (Denso) and new underhood fuel filter (Toyota). It was at about 8k feet altitude after climbing from 4.3k (Salt Lake City). About 95F at the highway, 75F at the top. But today I really noticed a fuel smell near the cap and saw fuel vapors coming out the cap. So I think it somehow may be related to air pressure at high altitudes. When I got down back to the city I did not see any fuel vaporing near the cap and the smell's gone.

So far for LX470 2007:

• replaced PCV
• replaced coolant cap (OEM) and gas cap (OEM) about 15k miles back
• cleaned MAF, throttle
• new air filter
• replaced couple vacuum hoses (looked bad)
• replaced pump and fuel filter
• fuses look good

Cruiser works and runs nice all the time. No stall being driven. No hard starts. No DTCs whatsoever. Only 91 fuel. I normally go to the mountains for skiing winter - no stalls and no issues. The problem occurs at even moderately hot days, at high altitudes, and seems somehow connected to vaporing fuel and atmospheric pressure.

Thoughts?

 

[2001LC]

ok. So I will kick this can again. Today I had a trip to the same place I used to stall. I call it a "vortex place" since there my truck dies. Ok, to be fair it had stalled a couple of other places too. But I can bet a hundred it would stall there. And the truck is always good in other places Never stalled when driven. But the symptoms are the same. So today it happened again.

With a brand new just replaced fuel pump (Denso) and new underhood fuel filter (Toyota). It was at about 8k feet altitude after climbing from 4.3k (Salt Lake City). About 95F at the highway, 75F at the top. But today I really noticed a fuel smell near the cap and saw fuel vapors coming out the cap. So I think it somehow may be related to air pressure at high altitudes. When I got down back to the city I did not see any fuel vaporing near the cap and the smell's gone.

So far for LX470 2007:

• replaced PCV
• replaced coolant cap (OEM) and gas cap (OEM) about 15k miles back
• cleaned MAF, throttle
• new air filter
• replaced couple vacuum hoses (looked bad)
• replaced pump and fuel filter
• fuses look good

Cruiser works and runs nice all the time. No stall being driven. No hard starts. No DTCs whatsoever. Only 91 fuel. I normally go to the mountains for skiing winter - no stalls and no issues. The problem occurs at even moderately hot days, at high altitudes, and seems somehow connected to vaporing fuel and atmospheric pressure.

Thoughts?

Posting your rigs year, miles, stock or built and with what mods, is helpful in remote diagnosing. Better yet, add vehicle info to signture line.

The fuel pump issue of stalls after ascending passes or long acceleration, is predominately 06-07 issue. Which I assume you have based on fuel pump you installed.

Fuel boiling can happen in any year, but we see varrition in 98-02 vs 03-07.

I've found coolant system number one consideration, tune number two, build number three.

Number one:

Radiator fins need cleaning! Alert Alert Alert

I've a 06LC w/192K I just bought. In reading history I found PO complained of engine temp raising when both front and rear AC on. Toyota Dealership diagnosed with clogged radiator fins. Recommended new OEM radiator, $600 for the US spec Radaitor plus coolant and labor. They should have added...

forum.ih8mud.com

Cleaning old radiator with ~250K on them, that have really gotten clogged fins. Will save in parts cost, but labor time about the same as R&R (remove & replace). R&R is more effective and better use of time.

Once a fuel boiling issue has occurred, my thinking is; "it may have affected the EVAP system" More so if 03-07, which has charcoal canister in rear.

First thing is to log ECT (engine coolant temp) during normal driving and at times vapors noticed. Dash water temp gauge is useless!

 

[Pskhaat]

. Only 91 fuel. I normally go to the mountains for skiing winter - no stalls and no issues.

In my observations higher octane fuels exasperate the situation. Advise 85.

 

[nagor]

Posting your rigs year, miles, stock or built and with what mods, is helpful in remote diagnosing. Better yet, add vehicle info to signture line.

The fuel pump issue of stalls after ascending passes or long acceleration, is predominately 06-07 issue. Which I assume you have based on fuel pump you installed.

Fuel boiling can happen in any year, but we see varrition in 98-02 vs 03-07.

I've found coolant system number one consideration, tune number two, build number three.

Number one:

Radiator fins need cleaning! Alert Alert Alert

I've a 06LC w/192K I just bought. In reading history I found PO complained of engine temp raising when both front and rear AC on. Toyota Dealership diagnosed with clogged radiator fins. Recommended new OEM radiator, $600 for the US spec Radaitor plus coolant and labor. They should have added...

forum.ih8mud.com

Cleaning old radiator with ~250K on them, that have really gotten clogged fins. Will save in parts cost, but labor time about the same as R&R (remove & replace). R&R is more effective and better use of time.

Once a fuel boiling issue has occurred, my thinking is; "it may have affected the EVAP system" More so if 03-07, which has charcoal canister in rear.

First thing is to log ECT (engine coolant temp) during normal driving and at times vapors noticed. Dash water temp gauge is useless!

Thanks! I really appreciate how passionate you're about answering questions. Sorry for being misleading. It's a 2007 LX470 Stock 146k miles on board. Added to signature as well.

So, as you suggested I dropped the skid plate and washed the radiator as best as I could paying attention to the inside room between the condenser and radiator. Got some gunk but wouldn't say too much. I believe PO had it as a part of a corporate fleet so it probably never seen offroad (though I've been hauling it some places in southern Utah and Moab particularly during the year and a half and 25k miles I own the rig).

After that, I started paying attention to ECT using Bluetooth dong attached when driving (BlueDriver - great tool I think). The coolant I think has been taken care of on 122k during belt and water pump replacement. The radiator cap is new. Coolant reservoir keeps Full on cold. No gunk inside or under the radiator cap was noticed.

So far I did not notice the temp went higher than 199F with 95F outside on a mediocre mountainous road (Little Cottonwood Canyon in Utah if you know the place). No fuel fume and vapors so far (91, full tank, common with 10% ethanol). I hadn't a chance to take it to that highly elevated road yet I had a stalling issue that I mentioned before after cleaning the radiator.

I am going to continue my observation of the temp and get back here. I will have a long trip for 2 months from Utah soon: North, East Coast, FL, South, and back home through TX so will see how it goes.

 

[2001LC]

BlueDriver log live data is stored in history until you send it out. So you can go back and look at data moment by moment.

I watch ECT, LT FT BK 1 & 2, ST FT 1 & 2, IAT, MPH, RPM. Try logging these next time at "vortex place". You can leave off ST FT (short term fuel trim). You can also watch more than five, although not recommend by BlueDrive. You can set in and out of data points, like drop FT and watch CATs. If not disconnect or data sent out. It will now log in save data file, just create new columns in spreadsheet.

FT (fuel trims) we need to see while cruising on flat HWY (not ascending or descending) with foot stead on throttle. If you let off gas pedal or press it, FT swings wide. Typically I see ECT at OAT of ~95F hot sun mid afternoon at 192F to 194F in 07LX, LT FT (Long term fuel trim) around 2% to 3%, IAT (intake air temp)~115F at ~70MPH ~2300 RPM in mile high city.

If, as you come to a stop, on hot black top with both ACs on max. You see ECT (engine coolant temp) raising to say 197, 198, 199F or maybe going over 200F. You likely have coolant issue. Number one is radiator fin clog. Fan clutch is another that must be looked at.

I just had one very well tuned, very clean 07 with temp rising at stops. Owner had washed radiator once or twice. I washed again. Radaitor looked clean, but water was coming out a bit reddish. This reddish was Utah dust, sticky dust as I call it, near impossible to get off. I flushed coolant system, installed new thermostat (jiggle valve up), new cap all oem. They were all good, but at 100K miles and 14 year, is was due to get to next T-belt job. I also turned with new spark plugs from Denso (not some ebay or parts store junk), new Denso coil boot kit, new filers air, oil & fuel, etc All vacuum line done, and tight as they can be (no leaks). All the old parts were good, but again just getting bases lined at T-belt job for next 90K miles.

Then I washed radiator again. From inside and outside with grill off for easy access and #1 Slee skid off to gain access from below. Rinse water looked clear. But I then sprayed with soaps (mixture of Kurd Kutter, Mr,Clean and drop of dish soap) and washed again. Reddish rinse water came out again. Now I could see water shooting from inside to out the front of radiator fins and getting clearer. But still as I looked close, I coulds see places I could not get to. Spots that still looks dusty. Not in this case, but some. I've removed radiator and cleaned. Even removed we can't 100 % clean, but close. In the vehicle we get about 60% of area clean. Which helps. Fact is even daily drives soccer mom rig, need radiators cleaned every 5K miles or more. Not doing so the dirt builds and sticks..

Anyway, over 4 hours of washing by two people over a months times. The radiators (all 3) could still use more cleaning. But now the temp may be 196F on hot day after running hard both AC full. Then as I pull up and idle at a light, ECT drops tp 194F rather than raises. It may hit 199F ECT running hard in stop & go, than pushing up to 80MPH full throttle in 98F OAT, but backs right back down to 194F as I cruise at 70MPH. The tune and all, had very little to do with better ECT (engine temp dropping) as this is a super well maintained rig. To date we do not know of any "fuel boiling" incidents in it. It is a heavy with iron bumps, winch, full skids, etc.. It goes from sea level to above tree line on and off road a lot.

If a 100 series has had a boiling issue, we may damage EVAP. More so in 03-07. In these case we just can't get temp down as should be, in all driving condition. They keep boiling in severe condition. So watch the ECT in the "vortex place". Go back a review the logs. If coolant system, fuel mixture, EVAP, etc. is causing a vapor lock. We should see ECT jump, likely above 200F. We may see LT FT running over 6%-up %.

One other example I just found running a bit hotter than should, after full coolant service and tune. While subsequently replacing an exhaust manifold (very bad leaks, worst I've seen). I found a hidden head gasket leak. Seem the leak was found some time ago by PO, and stop leak added. As it's color was different than coolant I flushed out and hidden under heat shield (where washing can't get to). This one we'll need to replace head gasket or engine before it will run at proper ECT.

So don't just notice ECT, review the logs. Let's see if any running hot events happening and in what condition. Let's also see if fuel trims are indicating any issue like vacuum leaks., etc.

 

[Calvinswartz]

Hello, im too lazy to dig up the thread that i was active on, on the subject. But i may have discovered our problem. Ive always had the suspision in the back of my head that it had something to do with the fuel pump resistor. Now let me explain myself. As temprature goes up and the resistor is in line with the pump (being heated because it is in use) the resistance of the resistor changes. This is why it doesnt stall when youre deep in the accelerator, because when youre under heavy acceleration the fuel system goes into an open state and circulates fuel back to the fuel pump. But as soon as you let off the gas and the engine isnt using as much fuel it goes into a closed loop, Putting the resistor inline with the fuel pump to slow it down, but because the resistor is above its operating temperature the resistance is higher than it is supposed to be not letting any amperage get to the pump. Now my best idea why the car runs fine on ethanole free gas is becasue with my expierence the car runs a little cooler on ethanol free gas. inorder to solve the problem once and for all i extended the wires to the resistor and relocated it to the airbox where it will always have access to fresh air. weather this will solve the prolem we will see.

 

[2001LC]

In speaking with a builder of custom Toyota's, not necessarily 100 series. We talked about the heat sink of that fuel pump resistor/relay. He said they need at least 2" air gap clearance around them. He'd seen a number of fuel starvation issue related with them.

 

[Pskhaat]

Hello, im too lazy to dig up the thread that i was active on, on the subject. But i may have discovered our problem. Ive always had the suspision in the back of my head that it had something to do with the fuel pump resistor. Now let me explain myself. As temprature goes up and the resistor is in line with the pump (being heated because it is in use) the resistance of the resistor changes. This is why it doesnt stall when youre deep in the accelerator, because when youre under heavy acceleration the fuel system goes into an open state and circulates fuel back to the fuel pump. But as soon as you let off the gas and the engine isnt using as much fuel it goes into a closed loop, Putting the resistor inline with the fuel pump to slow it down, but because the resistor is above its operating temperature the resistance is higher than it is supposed to be not letting any amperage get to the pump. Now my best idea why the car runs fine on ethanole free gas is becasue with my expierence the car runs a little cooler on ethanol free gas. inorder to solve the problem once and for all i extended the wires to the resistor and relocated it to the airbox where it will always have access to fresh air. weather this will solve the prolem we will see.

Where is said resistor?

 

[Calvinswartz]

Where is said resistor?

it is mounted inside of the engine bay to the passenger side fender. looks like this. Fuel Pump Resistor for Toyota Land Cruiser FzJ80 Lexus LX450 93-97 RESISTER – JT Outfitters - https://www.jtoutfitters.com/product/fuel-pump-resistor-for-toyota-land-cruiser-fzj80-lexus-lx450-93-97-resister/

 

[jerryb]

a couple more things need to be measured before a conclusion could be made about how hot the resistor gets related to fuel pump voltage drop.
if you don't like the fuel pump resistor, bridge the connector and remove it.
it's suppose to get hot enough to scorch your fingers so keep it away from anything.
the pump, resistor, and the wire length and gauge were proper when it was new.
that doesn't mean it's proper today, plus fuel is different today than it was then.

If one of you guys that drives over big rocks at idle speed with a 06-07 would like to try taking out the resistor on one of your runs and see what happens with the boiling issue it might be very enlightening, or it might affect nothing.

 

[Calvinswartz]

a couple more things need to be measured before a conclusion could be made about how hot the resistor gets related to fuel pump voltage drop.
if you don't like the fuel pump resistor, bridge the connector and remove it.
it's suppose to get hot enough to scorch your fingers so keep it away from anything.
the pump, resistor, and the wire length and gauge were proper when it was new.
that doesn't mean it's proper today, plus fuel is different today than it was then.

If one of you guys that drives over big rocks at idle speed with a 06-07 would like to try taking out the resistor on one of your runs and see what happens with the boiling issue it might be very enlightening, or it might affect nothing.

I'll have to try that, in a thread a while ago I read about some people that were trying to bypass it all togather, but they didn't know how to do it and I didn't expect it to be that easy. would keeping an extra plug hand to swap in when the cars shut off be smart?

 

[Calvinswartz]

I'll have to try that, in a thread a while ago I read about some people that were trying to bypass it all togather, but they didn't know how to do it and I didn't expect it to be that easy. would keeping an extra plug hand to swap in when the cars shut off be smart?

just to keep pump wear to a minimum. I guess you could also see how bad your stalling issue is and make a move to permanently hot wire it.

 

[2001LC]

What's interesting, this would act much like the weak fuel pump we've seem so often in 06-07. In those with bad fuel pump, fuel R&R alone corrects.

But I do know on one, FP R&R did not correct. It does have a air compressor and battery tray, next to fuel pump resistor.

 

[Calvinswartz]

What's interesting, this would act much like the weak fuel pump we've seem so often in 06-07. In those with bad fuel pump, fuel R&R alone corrects.

But I do know on one, FP R&R did not correct. It does have a air compressor and battery tray, next to fuel pump resistor.

im guessing R&R means resistor and regulator?