Solid Axle Swap

[AimCOtaco]

^^^Yep, I agree, sorry bout that...

seeing the custom tube job above reminds me that I should be focused on something like that and not making the LC something it's never going to be...

 

[elkaholic]

Do you know the real difference in a full hydro system and the stock system? I doubt swapping a SFA is exactly "street legal" whatever that means. That isn't what the thread is about.

<side track on>

Yes, I do know the difference between the two systems.

I do believe a well-engineered SAS conversion can be designed and executed in compliance with DOT regs. The OP included as part of his attraction to the 100 series is a "truck that was built in the current century with all the safety features " which implies some concern about running on the street.

<side track off>

I now return you to the thread, aleady in progress and shall refrain from posting on this thread again ....

 

[AimCOtaco]

Full Hydro and Street use do not go together. No feel, no safety, engine speed dependent, etc. etc.
Not usually the cheapest way to steer either.

This SAS thread is now the LT IFS / Hydrosteer SAS thread anyway so sidetracked we are!

 

[sleeoffroad]

You couldn't convert to hydro steering using the factory pump or replacing it with an aftermarket pump?

Street legal steering must have a mechanical link and not hydraulic.

Also, why keep the factory rear at all? Wouldn't it make sense to use a matched set of GM dana 60 front and 14 bolt rear from a GM M1009 that is readily available for $1,200 to $1,500. They are usually from low mileage trucks and already have 4.56 gears and a full case detroit locker in rear. Shave the rear, swap on disc breaks in the rear and freshen up the front. Ive run them underneath jeeps for years in leaf sprung or 3 link front configurations. I think the real question that I don't know is how the toyota computer reacts without the stock sensors in place for atrac etc.

All that can be done, but the issue is what are you trying to build. There are many ways to do this, we just chose to do it the Toyota way as much as possible since that is what the customers wanted.

The issue is what you are paying a shop to do. When you start with junkyard axle, there is a ton of labor to remove all links mounts, clean, grind etc etc. Now you are also adding more labor to swap the rear. More labor is more $'s.

 

[bamabrock]

Most of that are not representative of a properly installed full hydro system, but the thread is about a solid axle swap and steering must be addressed. Many without experience with a full hydro steering system have misconceptions about them, but a hydro assisted setup like one of the ones from PSC could be fitted as well if one wanted to stay away from a full system. I've seen some crawler guys testing out electric steering systems recently but I'd stay with I'd know.
Toyota Truck - Vehicle Specific Products

Street legal steering must have a mechanical link and not hydraulic.

All that can be done, but the issue is what are you trying to build. There are many ways to do this, we just chose to do it the Toyota way as much as possible since that is what the customers wanted.

The issue is what you are paying a shop to do. When you start with junkyard axle, there is a ton of labor to remove all links mounts, clean, grind etc etc. Now you are also adding more labor to swap the rear. More labor is more $'s.

While I wasn't referring to your shop in any way and know you've done a swap in the past, I understand the "toyota way" but that severely limits the user to options that are uneconomical and rare in nature. I use what works not matter who made it and have never put unnecessary limitations when building vehicles in the past. I don't think grinding off two leaf spring perches and shock mounts is that much work to prep the axle to have new coil spring perches, trac bar mount welded on is that labor intensive or it wasn't when I've swapped them in the past.

 

[BMX and CRUISERS]

My Dad's done some amazing things and freaked me out many times in his 100 but I just don't get the idea of a SAS on a LC.

More lift and articulation will get you a notch up but the truck is still elephant-sized and really heavy. A total waste of money in my mind.

 

[bluecruiser]

My Dad's done some amazing things and freaked me out many times in his 100 but I just don't get the idea of a SAS on a LC.

More lift and articulation will get you a notch up but the truck is still elephant-sized and really heavy. A total waste of money in my mind.

schotts has spoken, thread over.....amen..

 

[BMX and CRUISERS]

Ha! I liked my Dad's 80's better than the 100. His tan one was my favorite. His black one I did not like. Too tall and tippy.

But those are gone and I'll be glad to wheel his 100. Better than nothing! LOL!

 

[Nottajeep]

My Dad's done some amazing things and freaked me out many times in his 100 but I just don't get the idea of a SAS on a LC.

More lift and articulation will get you a notch up but the truck is still elephant-sized and really heavy. A total waste of money in my mind.

Yes, more lift and articulation is a complete waste of money.

Why would anyone want those minor features out on the trail...

 

[BMX and CRUISERS]

Yes, more lift and articulation is a complete waste of money.

Why would anyone want those minor features out on the trail...

$15,000-20,000 in this case? Or whatever...$10,000-$15,000?

 

[jonheld]

My Dad's done some amazing things and freaked me out many times in his 100 but I just don't get the idea of a SAS on a LC.

More lift and articulation will get you a notch up but the truck is still elephant-sized and really heavy. A total waste of money in my mind.

As the OP of this thread, it really isn't about what you want or like or dislike. It was about trying to get a handle on what I want for my next truck. I wheel my 80 pretty hard and have done so for the past 20+ years of ownership. I would NEVER consider an IFS equipped vehicle for a wheeling truck. I LOVE the way an 80 series performs both on and off road. It is totally superior in every possible way IN MY OPINION. That last part is important. Read it again.

Since the physical size of the 80 and 100 are fairly close, the 100 seemed to be the next logical choice. I like the power of the V8, I like the safety features, I like the fact that it was made in the current century, etc, etc. Don't forget, my current ride is going on 22 years old. While it still does great and I don't hesitate to drive it across country (last 2 Cruise Moab events), she's tired. I spend a lot of time and money keeping up with the things that she needs.

In any case, if I were to do this it would have to be the way Christo did it. It is immaculate, well engineered, and, above all, reliable. You all can keep your GM junkyard parts. I don't roll that way.

Bottom line, it has become way too expensive for me to consider this at the current time. However if I had the money, I'd seriously consider this type of swap. The 80 Series is getting long in the tooth. As the 100 Series comes of age, I suspect there will be more folks with the same idea.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

<SNIP>
Since the physical size of the 80 and 100 are fairly close, the 100 seemed to be the next logical choice. I like the power of the V8, I like the safety features, I like the fact that it was made in the current century, etc, etc. Don't forget, my current ride is going on 22 years old. While it still does great and I don't hesitate to drive it across country (last 2 Cruise Moab events), she's tired. I spend a lot of time and money keeping up with the things that she needs.
<SNIP>

The numbers may seem close between the two but behind the wheel the 100 is much larger then the number show. Size was the main reason I went back to a 80 series from the 100 not the IFS.

 

[BMX and CRUISERS]

The numbers may seem close between the two but behind the wheel the 100 is much larger then the number show. Size was the main reason I went back to a 80 series from the 100 not the IFS.

SO TRUE! One reason I always preferred our 80's over the 100. Plus the 80's look better!

I can tell jonheld though that since I was a kid and could not drive and until now when I have for years I've seen PLENTY of times my Dad struggled in the 100 vs the 80's. I can also tell you PLENTY of times my Dad's 100 made it look easy compared to the 80's due to IFS and TRAC and VSC. The 80's not the win-all everywhere for sure!

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

SO TRUE! One reason I always preferred our W's over the 100. Plus the W's look better!

I can tell jingled though that since I was a kid and could not drive and until now when I have for years I've seen PLENTY of times my Dad struggled in the 100 vs the W's. I can also tell you PLENTY of times my Dad's 100 made it look easy compared to the W's due to IFS and TRACK and SC. The W's not the win-all everywhere for sure!

Having and still own both the only advantage a IFS has is a dirt road ride-period.

The only time I have seen A-TRACK out perform a locked vehicle is with an unexperienced driver. Ever wonder why you dont see A-TRACK involved in any competitive events.

 

[AimCOtaco]

With all due respect to the OP I think you should welcome all the opinions presented. Even though some of the discussion above gets pretty far off track it is a very interesting read about the front end of the 100 in general (in my opinion). We understand that you want a 100 series rock crawler for <20k with a solid axle, no GM parts and little compromise but as long as you yourself concede that it is not feasible at this time, why not just enjoy the discussion? It is my opinion that you should check out some of nicley built 100's and see if maybe IFS might be an ok starting point until such date that tech/$$ is avaliable for an SAS. Check out some videos or ride along with some 100's on tough trails. I think IFS 100's have tackled most of the popular trails short of full on rock buggy stuff, mostly with body damage sensitive owners.

 

[BMX and CRUISERS]

Having and still own both the only advantage a IFS has is a dirt road ride-period.

The only time I have seen A-TRACK out perform a locked vehicle is with an unexperienced driver. Ever wonder why you dont see A-TRACK involved in any competitive events.

My observations where TRAC shines:

*Off-camber climbs with no sldiing into the ruts and side of the trail
*Wet/muddy spots particularly on climbs or eneven terrain
*Slippery surfaces...snowy or icy spots while climbing or even when it's level

I've seen TRAC blow away lockers many times. I didn't have TRAC on my 80 and you don't have to have it to wheel. But saying it doesn't kick lockers booty here and there is just not true! Been well documented by others too!

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

My observations where TRAC shines:

*Off-camber climbs with no sldiing into the ruts and side of the trail
*Wet/muddy spots particularly on climbs or eneven terrain
*Slippery surfaces...snowy or icy spots while climbing or even when it's level

I've seen TRAC blow away lockers many times. I didn't have TRAC on my 80 and you don't have to have it to wheel. But saying it doesn't kick lockers booty here and there is just not true! Been well documented by others too!

A-TRAC is great for the unexperienced^^^^
Like father like son
Im done
Hi-jack over

Jon your 80 has character just add a Toyota 5-speed and a 4.7 and you will be happy.

 

[wildsmith]

The 100 I had never seemed as well balanced as the 80's I've had, I'm not sure that was just down to IFS vs SFA? The only time I found ATRAC better than lockers was not having to explain to my wife how to use it / them I like that my 'new' 80 is more like a truck than the 100 was, otherwise I might as well just drive an A8

 

[jonheld]

I think IFS 100's have tackled most of the popular trails short of full on rock buggy stuff, mostly with body damage sensitive owners.

Uhhh...no. I have seen them try. Then again, we all wheel differently and we all have our own personal ideas on what is a "tough" trail. This place wheeling is completely different from that place wheeling. Every driver has a different level of experience and a different comfort zone, etc. I understand and respect that.

I did read all the posts in the thread about IFS mods and all the other fluff. No, it's not where I'm heading but still a good read. What I take exception to is your statement that a solid axle is marginally better than IFS. The axle travel of a lifted IFS 100 Series is pathetic at best. The same can be said for the FJC with their pencil thick little toy steering linkage. You just can't keep the rubber on the ground on even a mild rock climb. This puts more load on the wheel that is on the ground. It increases your chances of breaking because to properly use the ATRAC and all that other fluff, you need to add more throttle input. It is the wrong choice for me personally. If I were building an expedition wheeler, it's a winner. But to be able to throw a set of 36" Swampers on and go bang the crap out of it in the woods, not so much.

As far as ATRAC outperforming lockers, absolutely not. I can't tell you how many times we've had to drag ATRAC equipped trucks because the front wasn't locked. Either that or they have to use momentum to make it over stuff I walked up.

Then again, that what makes horse races. You can be "amazed" at what a 100 with IFS is capable of, and I can continue to laugh
I truly do wish I had the coin to drop because I think that in the long term it would prove to be a great investment and an awesome vehicle. I love the LC wagon platform as a starting point. The 100 Series is the next logical choice. We'll have to see what the future holds...

 

[spressomon]

The 100 I had never seemed as well balanced as the 80's I've had, I'm not sure that was just down to IFS vs SFA? The only time I found ATRAC better than lockers was not having to explain to my wife how to use it / them I like that my 'new' 80 is more like a truck than the 100 was, otherwise I might as well just drive an A8

IMO yes...its the IFS. You get torque induced front suspension lift/unloading on climbs with the 100. It takes a considerable adjustment in driving style compared to SA rigs over the same obstacles/climbs...this is why, again IMHO, the 100 platform feels so ass heavy on more technical terrain.

Washboard though? No contest: A 100 smacks an 80. But for more technical off-pavement work it's reign ends there IMHO.